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OfflineDrMushroom
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sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour
    #23417841 - 07/06/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

ive been having some troubles caused by spores not activating/germinating, and wondering if its possible or worthwhile to experiment in  sugar dusting the jars (for pf cakes), to speed up germination. see, some of my jars are only now showing growth after a whole month, a few have succumb to dormant contaminants that usually dont ever show themselves, one jar even has the verm layer contaminated which fortunately wont/cant seem to affect the floured verm which the myc is now starting to occupy. Plus there are also other issues associated with only one side colonizing.

Would coating/spraying glucose into jar before dusting with fine verm offer any localized support to see the myc spread quickly?
I already coat the inside of the jar with verm as preemptive rolling, though if its sticky i might be able to use a heavier vermaculite, so far its worked out well anyway plus with the fine stuff i can see where exactly my innoculations occur.

Also, similarly, would pre-milled rice flour, the consistency of ordinary flour, have any impact on the cakes? normally what i use is quite grainy, or has large grainy parts present.
On that note also, is there anything i can substitute into white rice flour, which i can buy in 3kg packs cheaper than 1kg of brown rice, to get all the nutritional benefits of brown rice? This asuming milled rice is even better than coffee grinded rice (consistency wise). I have tried white rice cakes before, they werent nearly as good and seemed to contaminate easily after they came out of the jar, so id never do a plain white rice flour cake, though that said, i do have already a very large amount of white rice flour and no brown rice.

But most importantly id like to know about the use of sugar water just for coating the inside of the jar, glucose water, or honey water if thats better, im still a ways away from using live cultures just yet.


Edited by DrMushroom (07/06/16 05:59 PM)


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InvisiblePsychedel.EXE
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23417913 - 07/06/16 06:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What tek are you following 100%?


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: Psychedel.EXE]
    #23417960 - 07/06/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sugar will only speed up the germination of all the shit you don't want to be sped up..  Spores don't need much sugar to germinate and it's only going to make things worse.  Understand the basics before you start doing anything like this..  You should really be doing everything you can to use actual brown rice flour, since white flour is typically bleached and comes with several other disadvantages that can't be simply modified by adding more ingredients (or that would be amended to the tek).  Leave out the white rice flour, call it a loss for now, if you really want to use it, figure it out later on down the line.


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: Inocuole]
    #23418309 - 07/06/16 08:38 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I guess ill hold off on the honey water then and work up to using live cultures.
Ill right keep on using Brown rice then also.

But what of the coarseness of it? does it at all matter? i sieve out the big stuff but after adding water it still amounts to big chunks, that doesnt matter at all does it?

I have a ceramic ball mill and dehydrator so i can make flour consistency rice flour, is there any reason to/not to go that fine?


Edited by DrMushroom (07/06/16 09:10 PM)


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23418970 - 07/07/16 12:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Can you describe your procedure of preparing your jars?
I get a feeling that you are deviating from the tek.
Do you mix the water into the vermiculite first, and then flour?


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: mindbentempire]
    #23419018 - 07/07/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like you're doing something wrong along the way.


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: mindbentempire]
    #23419033 - 07/07/16 02:02 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

yeah, basically normal tek, water in the verm then tilt the bowl to make sure theres no loose water, then add the ground rice.
i then spray some water in the inside and now i sprinkle ground vermiculite around there along the sides as coarse wont stick and normal coarse on the bottom just a little, then fill the rice-verm mix, then the verm layer on top. the verm on the bottom acts as a buffer, regardless of how the cake winds up oriented, as otherwise ive found the space between the cake and whatever i sit the cakes on in the fruiting chamber is always the eventual source of contam, plus if water collects on it its better that it just collects on vermiculite instead of colonized BRF.
This all being incase the mushrooms grow off the bottom of the jar meaning i have to put that end upwards which ive found is more often than not.

coating the inside of the jar in a layer of verm ive found also makes the myc less dense and makes cakes come out easier, though without grinding the verm its futile to try, since not enough verm ever gets stuck on.

I still dunk AND role afterwards, not nearly enough to substitute a roll gets on there, but i am positive it makes the cakes come out easier. I figured using honey water like glue would help me put heavier verm on there AND help the spores grow.


Quote:

Trusted Cultivator said:
Sounds like you're doing something wrong along the way.




What is the wrong way? sieving out larger pieces of brown rice to remill? Remember this is all hypothetical these questions for the time being.
besides having a small, small, like pinch sized verm layer on the bottom and fine verm coating the inside of the jar, its PF tek 100%


Edited by DrMushroom (07/07/16 02:08 AM)


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23419038 - 07/07/16 02:09 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Using any kind of sugar water will help mold grow and nothing else.  You don't need to rely on sticky substances to get vermiculite to stick to a cake.  I've seen thousands of cakes that people didn't seem to have any problem getting well coated in verm.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23419042 - 07/07/16 02:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What's your method/source of inoculation? Spore syringe, liquid culture?

Innoculating with liquid culture will colonize faster than a spore syringe.

Fresh air exchange also aids colonization. Where are they located

As for the brown rice flour, more nutritious purchasing brown rice and grinding yourself. Finer the better, but I wouldn't sift or obsess over consistency. Pretty sure the water from the vermiculite and heat from sterilization serves to "cook" the rice and allow it to be digested by mycelia


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: locallorax]
    #23419063 - 07/07/16 02:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

If you're doing cakes chances are you're no where near ready to fuck with LC, especially if you can't cake excellently


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: locallorax]
    #23419070 - 07/07/16 02:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

locallorax said:


Fresh air exchange also aids colonization. Where are they located






No it doesn't. You need GE (Gas Exchange)
Fresh air exchange is for fruiting.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: mindbentempire]
    #23419072 - 07/07/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

OP, please read this, if you haven't already:

EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: mindbentempire]
    #23419073 - 07/07/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: Inocuole]
    #23419242 - 07/07/16 05:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The problem is, because, i suspect of wildy fluctuating temperatures (5 degree nights but 30-35 degree days), all my spores go dormant quickly. I had spore prints made only 2 months earlier that took a whole month to germinate.

The vermaculite i would have liked to stick on the inside of the jar using something sticky instead of just water so i could coat it with an actually substantial layer, as it makes it really easy to birth the cakes and ensures that no consolidation occures right on the glass forming very tight seals, it works too, but if the verm used is fine, only marginally, its hard making a proper layer, not even worth the effort it saves.

The sugar being sticky and helping on this is just a bonus.

The main purpose was to kickstart dormant spores because as i said, im not yet ready to do liquid cultures, mostly just because i havent done enough innoculations or sterile work to be compromised to identify every contamination source and means to mitigate it. Also i cant find the proper silicon for the self healing injection port and im not confident enough to mess with live cultures unless i do it totally right.
But, since it would really accelerate contamination growth that i was seeking to avoid/ have the mycelium overtake, theres not much point then is there it seems :frown:

Also good to know the consistency of the rice flour wouldnt be an issue.

Thanks y'all


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23419246 - 07/07/16 05:46 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

People get spores shipped in the winter etc... They don't get dormantized like that. If they're taking that long to germinate there is likely a different problem that's not to be blamed on spores.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23419589 - 07/07/16 09:15 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

This all sounds sorta ridiculous. And very unnecessary. Just follow the pf tek to the "T" 100%. Do not deviate at all. Especially since it sounds like you have little to zero experience.

Anyways, my main point is that all of this sounds completely unnecessary.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23420761 - 07/07/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DrMushroom said:
The problem is, because, i suspect of wildy fluctuating temperatures (5 degree nights but 30-35 degree days), all my spores go dormant quickly.



I think the problem is you are lining the jar with vermiculite and then injecting into this area of verm with little or no nutrients in it.

It would be like making a petri of 4% malt agar and pouring a layer of non-nutrient agar on top, then injecting spores on that upper layer and wondering why nothing is happening.

If you dusted with sugar/glucose it would be extremely high in sugar in the local area you are injecting spores into, might not grow at all.


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23420771 - 07/07/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trusted Cultivator said:
People get spores shipped in the winter etc... They don't get dormantized like that. If they're taking that long to germinate there is likely a different problem that's not to be blamed on spores.




such as?


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23420775 - 07/07/16 04:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It was a nice way of saying "something you're doing".


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23421523 - 07/07/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I know my post count is low and I did JUST register this account the other day, but I am still plenty capable of speaking some truth on the subject of cultivation.
Truth is, you REALLY need to follow along with a well respected tek and not cut corners or try to do things differently in any way whatsoever until you have at least mastered the basics. This hobby is time consuming, so honestly if you are not gonna do things in a way that is proven to yield results then you are just wasting a LOT of time and some cash.
Lets Grow Mushrooms is a good place to start. Do your cakes precisely and exactly like RR  does in that video and I can promise you will at least be on the right track to success.
Good luck:thumbup:


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: Psychedel.EXE]
    #23421865 - 07/07/16 11:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Any suggestions then to something i might be overlooking that causes spores to quickly go dormant? when all my prints were fresh i put each on agar and saw growth quickly, in like a few days or so.

PF tek is pretty basic, and again, besides the extra verm to stop the cakes sticking/gripping so hard in the jar, ive followed what little else is there to do, exactly as it says. I didnt compact my BRF mix, i added water to verm first, i used the same measurements, with proper measuring utensils, pressure cook correctly, but germination rates are inconsistent.

What could be making the spores go dormant, if not the cold?
They are packed away in multiple layers of zip lock bags and eventually in nice clean tupperware.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23421872 - 07/07/16 11:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

How long has it been since inoculation? I've had it take 20 days in cold weather.


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Edited by hampiri (07/07/16 11:09 PM)


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: hampiri]
    #23421890 - 07/07/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

4-5 weeks


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom] * 1
    #23422001 - 07/08/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

They're not dormant. They're suffering from operator error,


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23422221 - 07/08/16 02:31 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trusted Cultivator said:
They're not dormant. They're suffering from operator error,




and what might that be?
With jars / syringes theres a few more variables but on agar im just wiping spores on jelly culture so where is the error?

I currently do not know what the problem is/might be.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23422438 - 07/08/16 05:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Are you following the recipe: 2 parts vermiculite to 1 part brown rice flour to 1 part water?

Did you put a drop of sex lube in your syringe water before you sterilized it? I have forgotten that when making spore syringes and injected (mostly)water. If you forgot, then you need to shake the holy hell out of the syringes to disperse the spores.

As for using white rice flour; it's probably fine, P. cubensis isn't particularly fastidious. The only difference in brown rice is that it has some vitamins, cellulose, and triglycerides from the bran and germ. Bran and germ are polished off to make white rice.
Mushrooms do not require much in the way of vitamins; they are still in white rice, just in low enough amounts that they don't benefit humans, hence why they "enrich" it by adding B vitamins and iron. Mushrooms do love to munch on cellulose but most any polysaccharide or monosaccharide found in nature seems to do.



--------------------
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Edited by hampiri (07/08/16 05:54 AM)


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: hampiri]
    #23422503 - 07/08/16 06:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

i havent any sex lube, though i did use windex once, quite successfully actually, even after 4 months i think it is now, diluting the now myc-syringe, still worked flawlessly as always, annoyingly given how carelessly i made those 2 syringes compared to now. my current GTs were inoculated with my windex syringes. But they were probably a fluke.
For spore distribution ive heard that a high frequency low amplitude vibrator would do it good, and i have some of those so ill be giving it a try tomorrow on a settled syringe.

Also i only use brown rice flour, i tried white back before i could find a coffee grinder for under $50, since it came pre milled but it didnt work out well, ive used BRF ever since.

Ill just reiterate that other than one time ive never used windex again, with the ammonia toxicity and all, but at the same time everything ive ever grown with the syringes made that way have always done very well opposed to everything else.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23422602 - 07/08/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

In small quantities ammonia supplies free nitrogen to fungi they actually use ammonia or ammonium hydroxide in some industrial fermentations like for fuel ethanol

Not that I suggest Windex for a syringe at all but perspective


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23422700 - 07/08/16 08:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

This is highly unlikely with such fresh spores but it could be that they are bunk/dead. You should buy a syringe from a vendor to see if you have the same problem. There are a number of things that can go wrong during the printing/syringe making proccess which makes even experienced cake cultivators only use vendor syringes.

Making your own clean syringes is not as easy as one would think. Once you start using homemade prints on agar you will easily see why this is. Turning those prints into syringes is an extra step which is even riskier.

So to sum it up, make sure you are following the teks perfectly, no deviations of any kind. Try a vendor syringe from a trusted sponsor to see if your spores/syringe making techinique are to blame. And probably most importantly, always use a SAB even if you are only using syringes on cakes.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23423498 - 07/08/16 12:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DrMushroom said:
Any suggestions then to something i might be overlooking that causes spores to quickly go dormant? when all my prints were fresh i put each on agar and saw growth quickly, in like a few days or so.



So are your spores still not growing on agar?

Don't know if you saw my previous post, I think it's blatantly obvious what is happening here. It'd be like complaining your LC is not working and then telling people its made of pure distilled water.


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: blackout]
    #23424340 - 07/08/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Australia has no syringe vendors. Getting prints is hard enough as it is.

Also they do eventually grow, they just take ages to start. some jars took almost a month, on agar the spores wiped on there with a loop.

its all clean so i dont know what this "operator error" could be, besides not buffering against temperatures. theres no condensation in there side the bag the spore prints bag is inside has a few desicant satchels. And its ALL prints, both mine and others ive gotten from other members.

But, as i mentioned before, thats why ill focus on just 1-2 strains and start using live innoculents from now on. My windex syringes are basically live and they grow really fast and well so if thats any indication of the efficacy, its certainly worth trying. Proper honey water i mean, not windex as a surfacectant.


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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: blackout]
    #23424456 - 07/08/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Once again

Quote:

blackout said:
Don't know if you saw my previous post, I think it's blatantly obvious what is happening here.



Have you read my first post?

I am also not clear if you answered this
Quote:

blackout said:
So are your spores still not growing on agar?




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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23424489 - 07/08/16 06:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DrMushroom said:
its all clean so i dont know what this "operator error" could be.




This is false. There isn't a vendor print/syringe which is totally clean, let alone a homemade print. Not saying that you can't grow with your own spores but the risk is not worth the effort when you can just start with agar and have a guaranteed live and clean culture.

desiccant packs with spore prints seems like a bad idea to me. Dehydrated spores will take infinitely longer to germinate. Not sure if it can actually dehydrate them, never tried it myself but I'm 200% sure that it is unneccessary and can only make things worse. It's the same reason why old spores take longer to germinate.


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OfflineDrMushroom
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23424884 - 07/08/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

clean enough*

as i said, the dessicants are in the bag outside the bag, the humidity here is usually quite high so condensation would likely appear inside a sealed bag.

They also do grow on agar but some took over a week before anything visible appeared. I have a thick smearing of creeper from my last grow that only now is showing a white spec, not sure yet though if its creeper myc

Also i agree about using spores directly, once i have liquid cultures down ill never use spore water again.


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Offlinehampiri
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23425148 - 07/08/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

My recommendation to help eliminate temperature fluctuation as a variable is to get a cheap foam cooler and construct a heat bomb(google "heat bomb tek"). If it does get to 5C in your house at night, I don't envy you, and I could see that slowing things down.


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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.
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Re: sugar dusting the inside of jars and what about pre-milled rice flour [Re: hampiri]
    #23425558 - 07/09/16 03:30 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

1 week is pretty average. There is nothing to worry about if it's only taking 1-2 weeks. If that is what annoys you, start messing with agar wedges or LI.

I suggest LI over LC anyday though. Safer.


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