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once in a lifetime
sun child



Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: deff]
#23415060 - 07/05/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: i've heard an analogy before that people are like rocks in a rock tumbler - they bump and grate against each other (and the sand), and through this, they get refined and come out as polished gems 
or rocks in a sack, yeah, and though they have rough edges, at first later on they are smooth like rocks from the ocean or a stream 
ya on the whole the main issue is schadenfreude... that is - taking pleasure from others' pain. . . anyway 
i'm pretty sure it's done and gone true story.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23415082 - 07/05/16 08:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: ut neither have I met a sane dog; I feel anything raised by humans cannot ever be 'sane'.
I disagree. I think animals raised by humans just ignore most of our stupid shit unless it directly harms them. Certainly cats and dogs are much closer to their pre-civilisation lifestyles than humans are.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor]
#23415093 - 07/05/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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What are you basing that on? Your biases?
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full blown human
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor]
#23415156 - 07/05/16 09:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: unless it directly harms them.
But that's the problem right? Have you ever met a human that is not harmed, and thus, does not harm?
I haven't.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#23415163 - 07/05/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Observation.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23415171 - 07/05/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
viktor said: unless it directly harms them.
But that's the problem right? Have you ever met a human that is not harmed, and thus, does not harm?
I haven't.
Most human misery is self-inflicted in the form of neuroses and a failure of spiritual hygiene. This doesn't directly affect animals.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor] 1
#23415205 - 07/05/16 09:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are kind of losing me on your point..
It seems you are saying both:
1) animals are incapable of higher order logic ["Most human misery is self-inflicted in the form of neuroses and a failure of spiritual hygiene. This doesn't directly affect animals."]
and
2) animals choose not to participate in higher order logic ["Maybe the rest of the animal world is too intelligent to get caught in human-style rational thought"]
Clearly, it cannot be both.
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full blown human
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#23415227 - 07/05/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: Clearly, it cannot be both.
Very clearly. The second comment was ironic.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor]
#23415230 - 07/05/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Anyway, what does intelligence have to do with higher-order logic?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23415345 - 07/05/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Why not?
I don't believe for a second that you would really trade being a human for being a dog.
Quote:
I've never met a sane human being.
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Neither have I.
Either you guys run in ridiculous circles, or you have an asinine definition of sanity.
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor]
#23415358 - 07/05/16 10:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: I disagree. I think animals raised by humans just ignore most of our stupid shit unless it directly harms them.
Yeah, that's because they have no basis to understand most things that humans do. You are anthropomorphizing non-human animals.
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: clock_of_omens]
#23415384 - 07/05/16 10:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said:
Quote:
viktor said: Why not?
I don't believe for a second that you would really trade being a human for being a dog.
Probably a dog wouldn't trade for being me either. A dog would look at all the psychological damage humans go through trying to breed and would think "fuck that".
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor]
#23415404 - 07/05/16 10:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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lol no. A dog wouldn't trade with you because a dog would have no concept of trading lives with anything. A dog doesn't know a single thing about the "psychological damage" humans go through, nor does it have a single idea about what psychology even is as it's a human invention. There you are anthropomorphizing non-human animals again.
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: clock_of_omens] 1
#23415819 - 07/06/16 02:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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How do you know what it's like to be a dog?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: viktor] 1
#23416171 - 07/06/16 07:21 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't, but I know what it's like to be a human. All evidence points to a massive difference between being a dog and being a human. It's much safer to assume that dogs aren't like us than assume that they understand psychology and have complex thoughts about what humans are doing. Has a dog ever created art? Has a dog ever done science? Has a dog ever demonstrated human level complex thought? Do dogs know language? How could a dog even conceptualize human concepts at all without language?
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: clock_of_omens]
#23416200 - 07/06/16 07:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said: I don't, but I know what it's like to be a human. All evidence points to a massive difference between being a dog and being a human. It's much safer to assume that dogs aren't like us than assume that they understand psychology and have complex thoughts about what humans are doing. Has a dog ever created art? Has a dog ever done science? Has a dog ever demonstrated human level complex thought? Do dogs know language? How could a dog even conceptualize human concepts at all without language?
What we share with dogs, beyond basic living, are emotions, capacity for empathy, the experience of suffering, a sense of play, and so on ... it's not all about 'pure' cognition.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: laughingdog]
#23416202 - 07/06/16 07:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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George Carlin has some funny shit about dogs
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: laughingdog]
#23416233 - 07/06/16 07:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: What we share with dogs, beyond basic living, are emotions, capacity for empathy, the experience of suffering, a sense of play, and so on ... it's not all about 'pure' cognition.
Well I was talking about what makes us different from dogs, not what makes us similar.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: clock_of_omens]
#23416241 - 07/06/16 08:04 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: What we share with dogs, beyond basic living, are emotions, capacity for empathy, the experience of suffering, a sense of play, and so on ... it's not all about 'pure' cognition.
Well I was talking about what makes us different from dogs, not what makes us similar.
dogoneit your right!
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Is humanity just a bunch of people making themselves and everyone else miserable? [Re: clock_of_omens]
#23416535 - 07/06/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
clock_of_omens said: Do dogs know language? How could a dog even conceptualize human concepts at all without language?
The language of dogs is a language of smells, of barks and growls and of body language. It's extremely sophisticated and complex. If you haven't noticed this then you don't know much about dogs.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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