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Offlineviktor
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Must every tripper be an non-materialist?
    #23410363 - 07/04/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It's clear that, when people first come into the world and haven't done much investigation, the world appears to be material. You can touch it, you can taste it, you can sense it in many ways, and so the natural conclusion appears to be that it is real and it is there and we are in it.

Many psychedelic drug users do not agree. I don't need to explain the reasons to anyone who has tripped, which I assume we all have.

To my mind, if you haven't tripped so hard that your belief in the primacy of the material world has been shattered and it no longer makes sense that you are merely a crawling monkey-like being birthed from a fleshy mother who is doomed to die, then you are not really a tripper.

A proper trip ought to destroy all the false beliefs and associations that exist in your mind until there is nothing left but pure consciousness, and in this state one's recollection of the 'material' world gradually returns. Not as something that has any primacy any more, but as a kind of dream that one plays a role in for the satisfaction of consciousness itself.

At best, such a person who has gone through the motions of tripping without the revelation (like a religious person chomping his wafers). Many, many trips do not have a truly profound psychedelic experience as part of them - many trips are just about sights and sounds and feeling different (which is 100% legitimate).

The shamanic journey is to travel away in spiritual space and return with something of value. I contend that this thing of value is that the material world is an illusion, and that there is therefore really nothing to fear from death.

Am I right? Must every tripper be a non-materialist on the grounds that if they are not they have not seen anything awesome and are therefore not a tripper? Or is there more to it?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23410463 - 07/04/16 01:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What you say on first reading sounds so clear and crisp and intelligent

on 2nd thought it is clear you are one of the chosen ones

on 3rd thought thousands and thousands in the 60's tripped the best acid, in mega doses, and really, long term, little came of it

a tiny percentage who were effected more deeply went on to study with meditation teachers

Lastly many who espouse your view remain dependent on very specific very material substances to maintain this view, rather a contradiction.

Beliefs are only beliefs. How we live, feel, and relate to others also matter. Perhaps there are gaps between the two sometimes?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #23410520 - 07/04/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I'm starting to suspect that the psychedelic experience is so unique to the individual that simply taking a massive dose is far from a guarantee that you will have a profound experience.

It seems more like that the drug is a metaphysical seed, and without the right soil in the form of the right mind it cannot take root and fulfill its potential.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23410555 - 07/04/16 02:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

all this talk about rightness is kind of right wing.
your opinion is  yours or right for you.

I am of the mind that spirit is part of matter - materialist.

no amount of pounding will change that view


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23410594 - 07/04/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

this might be controversial around these parts :smile: - but i believe the kind of experiences a person has on psychedelics might be based to some degree on karma from past lives (and of course also a result of permutations of current beliefs, memories, etc... from their current life)

but many traditions hold that the soul traverses many lifetimes as it evolves and eventually ascends/enlightens/etc. so to me, it seems possible that a trip could bring back whatever spiritual insight / development a person had in a previous life. some people take a small dose and have a profound level 5 trip that changes their life on the first dose - whereas others take massive doses for years without such a life-changing experience. so who knows :smile:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: deff] * 2
    #23410634 - 07/04/16 02:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, that's interesting. I have felt on some trips that a connection was established with past lives in the sense that I came to identify with the part of me that has survived through all these past lives, namely consciousness.

If consciousness is more of a frequency than anything else, it's possible that achieving a certain frequency in this life might cause you to resonate harmoniously with the frequency of consciousness that you were at in another life. This might make it easier to remember certain bits of information.

If this process repeated across lifetimes it could be like an alchemical burning away of impurities, leaving the gold of pure consciousness.

It might also be that a person who has been dull in all of their past lives cannot get very high in this one, because of the above reasons.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410654 - 07/04/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other

Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides

or think east and west


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: deff] * 1
    #23410661 - 07/04/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
this might be controversial around these parts :smile: - but i believe the kind of experiences a person has on psychedelics might be based to some degree on karma from past lives (and of course also a result of permutations of current beliefs, memories, etc... from their current life)

but many traditions hold that the soul traverses many lifetimes as it evolves and eventually ascends/enlightens/etc. so to me, it seems possible that a trip could bring back whatever spiritual insight / development a person had in a previous life. some people take a small dose and have a profound level 5 trip that changes their life on the first dose - whereas others take massive doses for years without such a life-changing experience. so who knows :smile:




I've experienced that as well my first time taking 400ug and taking a bong rip of heady nugs at the peak, was completely rocked out of my body, experienced the whole Brahma Sleeping, Brahma waking phenomenon, saw my soul as something like this Arabian prince riding on a magic carpet, dipping down into the 3d space and time to incarnate, to see if it was the right environment to grow and go back home.  It was really fucking convincing at the time.  I saw, and I believed.

But then I keep hearing other people's cosmological experiences on various drugs and see the way that they've been colored by their cultural reality grid, MtG linked me a TED talk where some guy took ayahuasca awhile back and his visions had many Western, Christian themes to it, traversing through hell and such, and that if he didn't quit smoking cannabis he would be sent to such a hell realm.

Now I see and don't believe so much, but it's still quite important for me to go down the rabbit whole and see what's lurking.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23410726 - 07/04/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
...It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a[n] interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other
...




:thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23410743 - 07/04/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
...It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a[n] interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other
...




:thumbup:



:thumbup: :thumbup:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410784 - 07/04/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

this also raises an interesting question

I suppose we think of the Tibetan Buddhists (Dali Lama etc.) as the epitome of spirituality

but is reincarnation, spiritual or material ?

seems to contradict the notion of pure consciousness, does it not?

rein---carnation

carnal

carcass

meat

if pure consciousness must enforce karma, on suffering sleeping beings, it's not exactly free and immaterial and compassionate is it?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #23410808 - 07/04/16 03:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other

Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides

or think east and west




Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?


--------------------
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410818 - 07/04/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

anti-duel-ist


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410826 - 07/04/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:

Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?




and you call Sudly autistic

funny


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23410837 - 07/04/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I sometimes think that materialist, non-materialist, artist, poet, musician, scientist, etc. are just all different varying aspects of Self and you can change the channel between them.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23410848 - 07/04/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

viktor said:

Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?




and you call Sudly autistic

funny




:thefuckisthis:


--------------------
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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23410853 - 07/04/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I sometimes think that materialist, non-materialist, artist, poet, musician, scientist, etc. are just all different varying aspects of Self and you can change the channel between them.




I think you can; you can also stay on one channel long enough to watch the duration of the show.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410942 - 07/04/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Am I right? Must every tripper be a non-materialist on the grounds that if they are not they have not seen anything awesome and are therefore not a tripper? Or is there more to it?




Some might say If you have to ask, the revelation wasn't total.
Like wise if it must be re-enforced by repeated dosing.

Also as long as there is attachment to a separate personality that feels it realizes something special, a non-dualist state of being wouldn't seem to be really grounded.

I do not doubt, that your life feels better, and you have less anxiety than you used to, as a result of tripping.

But I am reminded of an old joke.

An angel and the devil are walking down the street
when a man runs down the street
shouting: "I have seen!! God is real!!"
the Angel says "now you're in trouble aren't you?"
and the devil says:
"No, I'll help him organize!"

or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST)
said (roughly)
"The truth, believed is a lie."


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23410955 - 07/04/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

This is how terrorists are made.
People start thinking the world is non-material and they'll be reborn in a better afterlife so they go off and commit their atrocities without fear of repercussions because in their mind it's all a dream.

To answer OP's question directly, no.
I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.

As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
    #23411007 - 07/04/16 04:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:


As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.




Can you expand on this? Or articulate more?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23411017 - 07/04/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST)
said (roughly)
"The truth, believed is a lie."




This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).


--------------------
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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
    #23411028 - 07/04/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
To answer OP's question directly, no.
I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.




If you were able to keep in mind that what you were experiencing was drug influenced then you weren't very high to begin with.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Just know that if you and I were huddled somewhere under fire I would not be afraid, and would be happy to shoot someone shooting at you.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23411052 - 07/04/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

sudly said:


As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.




Can you expand on this? Or articulate more?




Non-dual is self explanatory as it's a materialistic view of reality.

As for the dichotomy of experience. 
Punching a rock and feeling the the sensation of pain is an externally originated experience.
Thinking the rock would look better if it were painted green is an internally originated experience.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (07/04/16 05:11 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23411055 - 07/04/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

(roughly)


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23411088 - 07/04/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

sudly said:
To answer OP's question directly, no.
I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.




If you were able to keep in mind that what you were experiencing was drug influenced then you weren't very high to begin with.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Just know that if you and I were huddled somewhere under fire I would not be afraid, and would be happy to shoot someone shooting at you.




If I'm taking drugs like magic mushrooms I like to mentally prepare myself by remembering that I'm taking drugs.
I'm not going to forget that I'm on drugs just because I'm high, even on 8g shrooms I don't forget that I've taken shrooms.

Terrorists are usually considered freedom fighters by other terrorists with the similar mindsets seeing as they believe what they are doing is 'right'.


--------------------
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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23411149 - 07/04/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience.

A strong psychedelic experience might teach you that everything you know is wrong. It's not the sort of thing you can prepare for. It's too weird for words, which you would know if you had had one.

I don't care if you've taken 8g or 80g. The more that you are in your everyday mindset the weaker the experience is, and if you're sitting there going "hmmm I've taken a drug, good thing I prepared myself beforehand" then your experience is weak.

Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
    #23411174 - 07/04/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

“Non-dual is self explanatory as it's a materialistic view of reality. “

a definition of
‘duality’
could be:
if I think of what I’m going to say in response to you
while you are talking,
instead of listening,
whereas
if I really listened  (for example) i might hear the hurt in your tone of voice
and know you did’t mean what the words literarily meant,
but were hurting inside.

so what duality implies is separation, as opposed to joining.
so psychedelics or not, every time we put “others” first we are freed from the prison of self.

If you told gangsters or people in the hood
where they must constantly fight for respect
that anger is actually a bunch of painful/stressful sensations in the body
they would look at you as if you were crazy.
Like wise saying self is a prison seems insane,
to most people.
Yet in orgasm, the self merges;
and when playing a sport ‘in the zone’
self fades,
and
people crave these experiences.
it seems because convention gives us no vocabulary for this aspect of our lives
we tend to miss it.
But psychedelics are not necessary to manifest compassion.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23411189 - 07/04/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST)
said (roughly)
"The truth, believed is a lie."




This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).




your point is too subtle for me

what do you feel a second comma will do?

after all it is only a re-iterization of a basic Zen insight.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23411221 - 07/04/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience.
...



a) I bet you mentally prepare for everything even if you declare you don't you do, and then brute through.
b) weak is bad, strong is good, I see, you are using the ancient cro magnon approach to something that needs a bit of delicacy.
c) get drunk and get laid, this is not on the table unless you are strong and mentally unprepared.

somehow everything is deeply twisted and grinding tighter with every turn.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23411227 - 07/04/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

it's the second comma of christ


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23411232 - 07/04/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

You do you viktor, you do you.
:mmmkay:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23411238 - 07/04/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's the second comma of christ




very cute:thumbup:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
    #23411244 - 07/04/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You do you viktor, you do you.





U DO U

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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23411253 - 07/04/16 05:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

or a killer billion dollar website, udodu.me


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23411271 - 07/04/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST)
said (roughly)
"The truth, believed is a lie."




This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).




your point is too subtle for me

what do you feel a second comma will do?

after all it is only a re-iterization of a basic Zen insight.




A second comma would make the sentence grammatically correct. Just a silly joke on my part :wooawesome:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23411405 - 07/04/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I've never really understood the label of "materialist", but I have been accused of it often in this forum.  Yet I have tripped many times, mostly on LSD and some on shrooms.  Thus, if I am a materialist, the answer to the subject is clearly "no" by counterexample.

But it looks like you are exercising circular logic.  A "true" tripper is only one that comes to the same conclusions as you, thus all trippers must have come to your conclusions. 


Edited by DieCommie (07/04/16 06:42 PM)


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #23411706 - 07/04/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But it looks like you are exercising circular logic.  A "true" tripper is only one that comes to the same conclusions as you, thus all trippers must have come to your conclusions. 




"circular logic' might almost? be the definition of belief.

"because a black cat crossed my path before I fell, black cats cause falling"
So next time I will fall when...

'I know the world is immaterial, so folks who don't are material!!!!!!!'

Help I think I need another drink! What's on tap?


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 2
    #23411875 - 07/04/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So you're talking about philosophical materialism, but that is connected to crass materialism. I have a young friend who has taken a lot of acid and mushrooms, but she is becoming increasingly about designer shoes, a $3000 per month penthouse apartment, prestigious vacation spots, etc. She happens to be an Introverted Sensing type according to the MBTI, and as such her 5 senses dominate her values, not the higher Intuitive function replete with cosmic insights, which apparently does not blossom during her high dose trips. She experienced ego-death I believe for the first time with us, but instead of listening to my explanation as a crucifixion of the ego, or another mythic dismemberment (Osiris, Dionysus, Prometheus, etc.) and without taking any time to process the trip, she assumed that she was physically ill and even physically dying! She never processed the psychospiritual meaning of ego-death and the implications for awareness of the 'Eternal Ground of Being.'

"Now the created soul of man hath also two eyes. The one is the power of seeing into eternity, the other of seeing into time and the creatures, of perceiving how they differ from each other as afore-said, of giving life and needful things to the body, and ordering and governing it for the best. But these two eyes of the soul of man cannot both perform their work at once; but if the soul shall see with the right eye into eternity, then the left eye must close itself and refrain from working, and be as though it were dead. - Theologia Gemanica


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23411990 - 07/04/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

What then, Markos, do you make of the sort of person who can take a high dose of a psychedelic and, nonetheless, find the experience devoid of any lingering value or perception-shattering insight?

When I used to believe that the psychedelic experience was a matter of putting the right chemicals into the right neurotransmitter receptors, I also believed that anyone taking a sufficient dose would, without fail, have a powerful and enlightening trip.

Some people identify with the false self so strongly that when they trip and feel it dying they really believe that it is them dying. This sort of person usually also considers the state of tripping to be some kind of "drug impairment" from which they return to "sane thinking".

There are many on this forum though who use the experience as an opportunity to let go and become happy. What of the others? Do they just need to trip more or is it an absence of metanoia that makes them the way they are?


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23412412 - 07/05/16 01:10 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

My personal feeling is that holding such polar views produces a somewhat less confusing mural of ideas, some to accept and some to reject. It is this false sense of "knowing" that produces comfort. It makes sense that people will avoid holding and considering viewpoints that make themselves more confused. The primary motivation, to make sense of the world, or perhaps to seek truth? Even in that sense the lines can be blurred. To seek truth assumes one should be able to ascertain what is true and what is not true regarding the fundamental nature of the universe... for the purpose of making sense of the world?

For my part, I cannot conceive of a reality that is primarily consciousness, nor can I conceive of a reality that is strictly material. These ideas make no sense to me on their own, and yet I don't have the answers. I would only hold one view (and reject the other) as a means of seeking shelter from my own mind, which of course I've played around with, but in my experience trying to be polaristic about it creates a sense of sacrificing logical integrity. I would rather be confused.

Everyone else feels a little better knowing the shaman is the craziest fucker in the tribe. However, I do like the way you describe a proper trip leading to temporary ego death leading to permanent change of mindset. For me it's not that the world is in reality pure consciousness, but that my fears are relatively inconsequential in the larger picture. That is the core message of "ego death" regardless of what the true nature of reality may be.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23412467 - 07/05/16 01:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think that our typologies works as filters. I don't know what typology Francis Crick was, but he saw the DNA helix on LSD. A natural like Friedrich Kekulé didn't take a psychedelic, but he was able to translate an archetypal dream of the Ouroboric serpent with tail-in-mouth into a benzene ring and develop organic chemistry from there.

Believe it or not, not everyone wants to be enlightened! You still hold youthful enthusiasm if you still value your experiences. Dont allow that enthusiasm to perish. The very word enthusiasm means being filled by God. The Cipher character in The Matrix had an awakening, but he preferred the illusions/delusions of The Matrix to the suffering that accompanied his awakening. I knew a highly paid personal injury attorney who regarded his experiences as "just a drug" and dismissed any implications of his experiences so that he could indulge himself with status cars and other materialistic possessions. Meanwhile his wife of 13 years left his very obnoxious self, taking a $400,000 house, $4000 a month alimony, their 3 kids, and $1 Million in cash. He couldn't seem to find any women but users and gold-diggers. That's what he deserves from what I've seen. Cipher wanted to be "someone important, like an actor," which tells us a lot in this latter-day mythos.

I saw this in college 40+ years ago. It is a matter of “I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?" - Chuang Tzu.  Since butterfly is Psyche (soul) in Greek, and even though this is Chinese, the point is that we are both spiritual and material realities conjoined, 'amphibiously' as Aldous Huxley said, mind which is able to identify with spirit or matter. But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23412582 - 07/05/16 03:50 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other

Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides

or think east and west




Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?




no, meta :cool:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23412596 - 07/05/16 04:02 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.




That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.

The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~

The sound of the water
Says what I think.


~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23413746 - 07/05/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint.




Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?




no, meta :cool:




So you represent the meta pole, as opposed to the non-meta pole?


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23413883 - 07/05/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

your lost in abstracts. that is trouble with syntax. you have to feel your way into this or you just keep saying 'well there is anti that' bit like the infinite regressive question 'so who made God?' the question is limited
Yes, when I feel pain I do, but I do not imagine a place ehere there is 'no pain' as a reality. Sure there may seem a dimension where it is all glowy and no pain, but I am imagining it from a place where you CAN feel pain too


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23413983 - 07/05/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23414065 - 07/05/16 03:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.




you just don't get what I am trying to communicate is more like it


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23414072 - 07/05/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.




That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.

The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~

The sound of the water
Says what I think.


~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit





Agreed.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23414173 - 07/05/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

viktor said:
I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.




you just don't get what I am trying to communicate is more like it




I don't think anyone really does :shrug:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23414278 - 07/05/16 04:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.




That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.

The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~

The sound of the water
Says what I think.


~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit





Agreed.




I think that's totally judgmental, I use my smartphone on my commute (yes I walk to work) to listen to audiobooks and podcasts and further my education.  Doesn't stop me from looking people in the eye and giving them a warm smile and saying hello, doesn't stop me from noticing all the indigenous plants here (I can tell you about each and every one of them), doesn't stop me from stopping and smelling the roses.  You'll never see me fiddling with my phone while out to dinner and having a conversation, I give people my full attention because I enjoy being with them.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23414301 - 07/05/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Manufactured electronic music has aided in some of my most trancendental experiences, Mr. Judgey


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23414594 - 07/05/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.





Damn, bro's gonna need some aloe vera for that sick burn.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #23414740 - 07/05/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It's just that I've been where the dude is...


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23415047 - 07/05/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! :lol:


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23415058 - 07/05/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.




This might be the crux of it for me. Identification with matter is just so boring. It seems to me to be the default stance of a person of limited intelligence.

Perhaps this is because the less intelligent someone is, the more literally they take things. I know a lot of humour goes unappreciated because the person hearing it was too dumb to realise it was humour.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23415144 - 07/05/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience.

A strong psychedelic experience might teach you that everything you know is wrong. It's not the sort of thing you can prepare for. It's too weird for words, which you would know if you had had one.

I don't care if you've taken 8g or 80g. The more that you are in your everyday mindset the weaker the experience is, and if you're sitting there going "hmmm I've taken a drug, good thing I prepared myself beforehand" then your experience is weak.

Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.




I 'mentally prepare' for a psychedelic experience by remembering that I'm taking drugs and my perceptions are likely to be altered, like with alcohol I know that if I drink enough of it I'll get drunk.

If a 'strong' psychedelic experience makes you believe that everything you know is wrong then maybe you just had a weak mind to begin with.

Usually the more of a drug someone takes, the more intense or 'strong' the experience will be. If someone is taking drugs without realising it will alter their mindset then in my view that is incredibly irresponsible and naive.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23415150 - 07/05/16 09:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.




This might be the crux of it for me. Identification with matter is just so boring. It seems to me to be the default stance of a person of limited intelligence.

Perhaps this is because the less intelligent someone is, the more literally they take things. I know a lot of humour goes unappreciated because the person hearing it was too dumb to realise it was humour.




Look at the majority of the multitudes who value ball-players of every type, over ANY scientist, philosopher, artist, author, poet, or peace-maker. Talented as their hand-eye coordination is, personally, I am now, and have always been totally uninterested in their talents. I prefer, for example, the men and women at NASA who applauded and hugged one another each other over their control over the Juno probe. THOSE people, whose scarcely detectible movements got the Juno probe within one second of its scheduled time, after a billion mile trip. They're not glamorous, but THEY are important. THEY are VIPs IMO.

I don't give a good goddamn over a Dwayne Wade who is offered $40 million to put a round ball in a round hoop. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. No, I can't do it, no I'm not envious of those who can, I'm just utterly and completely uninterested. I have never watched a basketball game, and the only time I watched a football game (a Giants game) was in November 1964. I hated the whole thing, and don't mind admitting that I know nothing about the games (my wife knows football very well, but she doesn't watch either). The NASA scientists are the future of this planet, but they're not usually in giant hulking bodies, they don't drive Bentleys, they don't 'get the bitches' with their 'fly' lifestyles of the rich and famous, or appear in tabloids because of testosterone-fuelled crimes.

Now, NASA scientists are not necessarily transcendentalists or mystics, at least not to the public to which I belong, but they do live the life of the mind. I would not be surprised at any mystical sentiments entertained by some of these scientists, but at the very least I bet they have real imagination. Imagination may well be the interface between mind and matter if one considers Jules Verne's fictional atomic submarine Nautilus manifesting in matter a century after he imagined it. Imagination, intuition, and intellection are more intrinsic to human beinghood than are the physical bodies we are enfleshed with. But again, although everyone proclaims that they are a human beings, the multitudes pretty much evidence their existence as merely human mammals. Some even disclose that they are themselves "intelligent meat." Meat-heads are not all that intelligent.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23415193 - 07/05/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think our attitudes to sport are one thing we definitely do not have in common :rofl:

I watch a lot of cricket and rugby, but I reckon you could understand my perspective. If you think of the game in terms of order and chaos it's a lot easier.

Take baseball, for example. The batsman is trying to impose order upon the trajectory of the ball. So he is the yang force. The pitcher is trying to impose chaos upon the trajectory of the ball, by getting it to twist and slide and dip in the air (and hopefully beat the bat). So the pitcher represents yin.

If you think of it in terms of yin and yang, then watching any sport is just like watching any other natural process, like waves washing up on a beach.

The flipside of all this is that very, very few, if any, of the actual players could or would appreciate this perspective, for the reasons you mentioned. So there's an irony for those who appreciate it.


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23415774 - 07/06/16 01:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! :lol:




Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23416136 - 07/06/16 06:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Must every tripper be an non-materialist?

No but they should be able to survive purely by telepathy and join the breatharians ...

you dig man

that would be like totally awsome

cool

hip

profound

superlative

the shit

cosmic

so fucking what?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23416745 - 07/06/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

No judgement on you personally, or anyone who watches spectator sports. Athletes of course make ungodly sums of money in the USA, and frequently experience severe, crippling disorders as a result. We just watched the film Concussion, which is certainly worth seeing. So one has to have a certain respect for those who earn such coveted jobs. They are relatively few in the NFL compared to the hundreds of millions who root for them. Same with the NBA. I've always taken care of my body, but being an introvert, team sports are just not a possibility. I did some judo, jujitsu, and scuba diving. Yoga is not a sport. Neither is resistance training, even though there are Olympic weight-lifting competitions.

I am annoyed by the crowd sounds and commentators when my step-daughter visits at Christmas time and watches football, but that's just me. You reminded me of a college chum who was into basketball and was trying to give me a similar cosmic coloration to the game, big 5-pointed stars on the court, Yin-Yang in action. I'm certain that you don't require that to enjoy the action, but then again, the "movement-center" in a Georg Gurdjieffian sense might be a lot more prominent in your personality than it is in mine. :shrug: G.'s is another typological model that makes a lot of sense to me. I move a good deal working on my house/pool/yard and sometimes lose too much water/electrolytes in the South Florida heat, but moving competitively, for 'fun,' or watching others do the same has never appealed to me or interested me. Games go back quite far in human history. The Mayans played a form of basketball in 1400 BCE, but the losing team were all beheaded! American football is a remnant of gladiatorial combat owing to its intense physical striking. I'm not familiar with rugby either, but I have the impression that rugby players can have a very rough and rugged reputation. It's no golf! :lol:

Like gaming, gambling also holds no attraction for me. Life has been gamble enough and I've lost enough on girlfriends, ex-wife, career, place to live, stock market to see gambling as a thrill. As for gaming, I'm generationally out of the loop. I'll be 63 in a few days. :eek: :lol:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23416757 - 07/06/16 11:56 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Well happy birthday. :smile:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23416766 - 07/06/16 12:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

American football is a remnant of gladiatorial combat owing to its intense physical striking.




I've said the exact same words nearly verbatim!  It's like slaves have been brought to the arena, and boy the crowd is in a frenzy...  Even mighty empires collapse, perhaps ours too.....


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23417050 - 07/06/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

there was a good book I read years ago titled 'Exploring the Crack in the Cosmic Egg' where the author talks about how always being in talk mode, or culture-mode kind of clings you to consensual reality, whereas the sounds of wildlife and nature are more wild and of another dimension, if you will

I have had shroom trips with people who inisist to chit chat just as they would after having a toke. I would sit and really listen and begin giggling when I heard the emphasis they would put on words, etc. One said 'what are you giggling at...'? errr duh? LOL

when I first was turned onto cannabis many years ago 9though I have stopped toking for quite a while now) groups would more listen to music, and there wasn't manic chit chat like I later came across. it seems to me more and more people are obsessed with 'social media'. They lose that sense of losing this need to always be in consensual reality mode--the accepted reality of language, and cultural consensus


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23417064 - 07/06/16 02:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks! :cheers:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23417087 - 07/06/16 02:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

American football is a remnant of gladiatorial combat owing to its intense physical striking.




I've said the exact same words nearly verbatim!  It's like slaves have been brought to the arena, and boy the crowd is in a frenzy...  Even mighty empires collapse, perhaps ours too.....




Cage fighters are a step down into barbarity. If fighting to the death intentionally (because fighters DO 'accidentally' die of their injuries) was legally permitted, there would be hundreds of thousands in favor, maybe millions eventually as the veneer of their civilizing programming wore off, watching, paying to watch, betting on them. :sad: I wonder if spirituality and compassion have genetic correlates, because if so, the gene is recessive and latent in much of humanity. :frown:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23417647 - 07/06/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I wonder about that type of thing all the time, perhaps a latent gene activated by psychedelics? Most people seem to stay on oral, anal, rational, moral circuits, ultimately reproducing and dying and that's it.  I'd buy you a copy of Tim Leary's The Game of Life if I can find one at a good price (can be stupid expensive) where he speculated a lot about post-terrestrial blueprint in our DNA, mystical states etc. included.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23417861 - 07/06/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

happy birth day markos
you are so young.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23418179 - 07/06/16 07:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the thought, but I can read it for $5.99 on Kindle, and it's available in hardcover and paperback for $17.95or $26.95 respectively. I have some of Leary's books and I wonder if his ideas are in them since I confess not reading through to completion.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #23418815 - 07/06/16 11:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

True Materialism..is of substance..and things that have substance are material...so therefore..the self..and its extensions..thoughts ideas..cultures..and citys...even all the scientific know how and objectives...are all directed as and from material..we are substance..and that is what materialism continues to this day to be!


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23419615 - 07/07/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Thanks for the thought, but I can read it for $5.99 on Kindle, and it's available in hardcover and paperback for $17.95or $26.95 respectively. I have some of Leary's books and I wonder if his ideas are in them since I confess not reading through to completion.




Oh, they have finally reprinted it in 2015...  copies were getting quite expensive for awhile.  Mmm, if you have a copy of exo psychology (or alternatively info psychology, the updated version that focused less on preparing for space travel and more on cyber culture) then you'll get the gist of what his works are about.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23419659 - 07/07/16 09:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Those books are totally awesome. :thumbup:

The reprint of The Game of Life they did a really good job on.  I actually reviewed it for New Falcon (very positively).  Took a fuck of a lot of work on their part given the unique format of the original.  Good stuff.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23419715 - 07/07/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yah I have a tough time imagining the book being converted to Kindle unless you were using a tablet......  Just doesn't seem the right format.

Ever try his computer software Mind Mirror?



I know it's floating around as abandonware, maybe some sort of Facebook game.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23419786 - 07/07/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Haven't tried it, no.  Looks interesting in the video, although I'm not on Facebook.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23420199 - 07/07/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

To my mind, if you haven't tripped so hard that your belief in the primacy of the material world has been shattered and it no longer makes sense that you are merely a crawling monkey-like being birthed from a fleshy mother who is doomed to die, then you are not really a tripper.




Either classic tautology or classic No True Scotsman Fallacy.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23420205 - 07/07/16 01:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sports are beneath you? Don't be so elitist.
Everything is sport. Someone just mentioned the Game of Life by Leary. It's all a competition of who can outmatch, outwit, out-enlighten who. There are clear winners and losers to everything in every forum you can think of, this one too. We're all trying to win this thread and it's all in good fun.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23420233 - 07/07/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I play cooperative games all the time :sorry:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23420299 - 07/07/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yes but the cooperative games are a competition to see who is the most cooperative. And even if you somehow manage to work together effectively (Not likely!), you're still trying to beat out some kind of opponent, whether it is an actual bad guy, death or chaos or time or something.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23420447 - 07/07/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
...who can outmatch, outwit, out-enlighten who. ..


out-enlighten whom, no?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23420551 - 07/07/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
Yes but the cooperative games are a competition to see who is the most cooperative. And even if you somehow manage to work together effectively (Not likely!), you're still trying to beat out some kind of opponent, whether it is an actual bad guy, death or chaos or time or something.




i don't agree at all. I am trying to encourage a deeper awareness. of course someone may then call me me full of shit, because they think I am coming on as deeper than them, and so better. But am I? I know that you eg may play the guitar better than me, or abc better than me. I don't know. I don't even know you. All I can see are typed text. can't even see your facial expression, body language, tone of voice etc. But I AM aware of what I am meaning, and so share it. Not in trying to beat you down and win.
If say I argued that drinking fresh mineral rich water is great for you, and how water is the only liquid in/on Earth that rehydrates you, and you argue that you love coca cola instead, is me telling you that me trying to 'beat you' as an 'opponent'?

what you seem to describe is what has been called the heroic ego mindset that needs constant 'monsters' to defeat to justify his armoured existence--'bad guys', 'death' and 'chaos' seen as monsters to be defeated. I am seeing that, and explaining that that way of thinking is a more shallow kind of awareness than one that is exploring how shallow it is.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23421048 - 07/07/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
happy birth day markos
you are so young.





Thank you RGV! :cheers: I AM young-at-heart, but my heart is centered into a 62 year, 363 day old body! Still fairly svelt and toned, but oy vey, don't let me get started! :lol:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23421076 - 07/07/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! :lol:




Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.




I think you're stretching the colloquialism 'smart phone,' a tad. It can make one smarter insofar as it's a portal to the internet, which is basically the electronic repository of all human knowledge, sans top and top top secret material. I have certainly learned more from access to the internet than I could've without, having to rely on going to university graduate libraries around Miami instead. :shrug: In my home or out on the street, I can look up anything that comes to mind, although I MUCH prefer a 15" or larger screen for doing so.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #23421129 - 07/07/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
True Materialism..is of substance..and things that have substance are material...so therefore..the self..and its extensions..thoughts ideas..cultures..and citys...even all the scientific know how and objectives...are all directed as and from material..we are substance..and that is what materialism continues to this day to be!




Human beinghood is a hybrid of matter and mind, substance and the nonsubstantial. Aldous Huxley said that mind is "amphibious" insofar as it is intermediary between matter and spirit, and can identify with both. Most people do not attempt to balance this intermediary position of mind's nature in order to be aware of both, but unconsciously assume the bias of their sensory organs for filling the mind. There are those relatively few individuals who live the life of the mind, say pure mathematicians, theoretical cosmologists, or quantum physicists (for whom only a small amount of theory can be translated into empirical experimentation, like the Large Hadron Collider). Then there are those rare spiritual beings who see more of spiritual reality than most of us, those for whom their actual experience is described by the Buddhist axiom "Nirvana is Samsara, Samsara is Nirvana," or who abide in Sat Chit Ananda, both formulations consisting in a gnosis which obliterates the materialistic bias that the majority of us live in (the dualism as others have pointed out here), despite our best efforts to transcend the duality.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23421731 - 07/07/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! :lol:




Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.




I think you're stretching the colloquialism 'smart phone,' a tad. It can make one smarter insofar as it's a portal to the internet, which is basically the electronic repository of all human knowledge, sans top and top top secret material. I have certainly learned more from access to the internet than I could've without, having to rely on going to university graduate libraries around Miami instead. :shrug: In my home or out on the street, I can look up anything that comes to mind, although I MUCH prefer a 15" or larger screen for doing so.




Well, I'd also contend that you could use your 15" more intelligently :biggrin:.  It's a tough transition though to go from working to use your computer to making it work for you.  Then the possibilities become quite remarkable, imho.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23424009 - 07/08/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I can always learn more, but I concede that you're an expert in the matter, and I am not. I DO engage experts in things which are not my forte: accountants, lawyers, physicians, surgeons, dentists, analysts, etc., etc.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23424565 - 07/08/16 07:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Must every tripper be an non-materialist?






MAKE HOODIES!!

I'LL BE LOST THEN FIND ME AND LET'S MAKE SOME MONEY!!



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23427198 - 07/09/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
There are those relatively few individuals who live the life of the mind, say pure mathematicians, theoretical cosmologists, or quantum physicists




they are also very human, with all the usual foibles


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23427345 - 07/09/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I can always learn more, but I concede that you're an expert in the matter, and I am not. I DO engage experts in things which are not my forte: accountants, lawyers, physicians, surgeons, dentists, analysts, etc., etc.




Well I would love to teach you more, perhaps some day in person.  Really your imagination is about the boundaries of what you can do...  For example, with a small investment you could have all your CDs archived digitally on a server and use your phone as a remote to listen to any album or playlist wirelessly to any or all speakers in your house.  Or, have all your DVDs archived and have them all accessible with the click of the remote w/ full metadata from IMDB, cover art, etc. to watch on your TV with a $25 raspberry pi front end (oh, and forget all the previews and other nonsense, click and watch).  You could get phillip hues lights, you can create all sorts of ambience with them or use them as a wild equalizer for your music.  Those are only a few suggestions, I have thousands of ideas, surely some of them would appeal to you.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23433208 - 07/11/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
Sports are beneath you? Don't be so elitist.
Everything is sport. Someone just mentioned the Game of Life by Leary. It's all a competition of who can outmatch, outwit, out-enlighten who. There are clear winners and losers to everything in every forum you can think of, this one too. We're all trying to win this thread and it's all in good fun.




You're just peering at life through the lens of your Manipura chakra, Alfred Adler's Individual Psychology with its Social Interest, Superiority vs. Inferiority, Organ Inferiority and adopted Nietzschean "Will-to-Power." I have disliked sports since I was in 3rd grade - 1961-62. Do you think that I experienced being elitist when I was a 9 year old boy and every one wanted to talk about 'the ballgame' from the night before? Think again. I had to compete in life, but I never went about it from the Adlerian perspective. I endeavored to work against my own limitations, and I never intentionally competed against others. If my dissertation topic was accepted and someone else's wasn't, one had nothing to do with the other and I was not in competition with anyone. That may be YOUR meta-motive, but it has not been mine. I never acted unethically for personal gain. I gave my all when I was interested in something, just as I take the time on these forums to be as clear as I can.

From your perspective, it is evident that you resent those who actually ARE elite in some way. I earned a Ph.D. degree which puts me in a single digit percentage of the American population. But I graduated from a large state university, not an Ivy League institution, so relative to my achievement, I can see more prestigious Ph.D.s. Do you think I accuse those doctoral recipients as being elitist? They actually ARE, but good for them. :yesnod: It's all relative and a useless 'game-rule' to adhere to. I remember those kids in PE class who would get all excited and angry if I didn't play some game like I wanted to win. It wasn't about getting a grade, and there was no reward except the absurd 'win vs. lose' Adlerian motive which I used to laugh at and still do. It's not like professional ball players who stand to make or lose huge payouts. :shrug:

I stay up to 3 or 4 a.m. most nights reading philosophy and theology. Does that make me elitist in your eyes? Probably, I'd surmise. This is something I'm into, not playing with a baseball/football/volleyball/basketball/polo-ball/soccer ball. :lol: The majority of males I've known in my 63 years enjoy some sport. I however do not, but hey, knock yourself out. I couldn't care less about anything in life than ballgames. The 'Game of Life' draws on an idea that Leary undoubtedly knew about when he was in Harvard's Department of Social Relations from the 1955 book Homo Ludens: A Study in the Play Element in Culture by Johan Huizinga. I read it myself a couple of years ago. This take is another level of human socio-cultural identity, which is another facet of the Manipura chakra psychology/Adlerian theory of human motivation.

Your words that state that people compete to "out-enlighten" others assures me that you do not understand the usual meanings for enlightenment in any idiom I know of. I suggest that you look into reading Robert De Ropp's book The Master Game. It is a "High Game" that you are  not engaged in if you think it's a competitive activity. Here is a brief outline: http://www.livereal.com/spiritual_arena/spiritual_members/master_game.htm


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23433813 - 07/12/16 12:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know, but I do know every stripper must be materialistic.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23434955 - 07/12/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

WHOA! Sounds impressive both in theory and practice. Is it, (I wonder) not a good thing to be content with what I am accustomed to? I must simplify in various ways in order to make moment-to-moment psychological room for Spaciousness (which I prefer to the word Emptiness in Buddhist parlance). The technology is amazing as is your expertise in it, and it offers as you say boundless possibilities. You might be dismayed at the simplicity, sparse sociality, and inwardness of our lives because of the difference in which decade you are in compared to the one we're in (or the one Rose will be in come August :grin: ). I think that our existence would drive you quite mad in  time, but in midlife and beyond, inwardness become more natural and no longer runs counter to the outward flow of youthful energies towards novelty, new experiences, complexity, movement upon the earth.

The multiplicity and complexity of life is being distilled as it were into simplicity.  Sounds depressing to youthful ears, but it is a necessary "second half of life" process that Jung wrote about and is anything but joyless. It's not quite the kind of geriatric joy of a good meal followed by a good bowel movement - not yet anyway, :lol: but in a certain sense, life is more trip-like in its fixed-gaze intensity in retirement. That just means that much of my youthful enthusiasm for novelty is much reduced. I still enjoy analog old school 2-channel stereo vs. theatre sound systems with BlueTooth, MP3 dock, etc. We do use AirPort Express to stream Mac content through the Marantz receiver and thence to any or all of 3 rooms (soon to be 4) and the back yard. I do engage our TV with my favorite kaleidoscope program on YouTube while the stereo operates separately. But this is all extremely primitive compared to what is possible with different components that you are conversant with. Nevertheless, we both would welcome your expertise with interest in what is possible here at home with the old folks.  :oldman:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23435340 - 07/12/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Mmm, I don't know man, you directly gave me a list of books as recommendations to talking the head of my philosophy department to take a chance with me on an independent study on mysticism.  I remember Otto, Underhill, Govinda like it was yesterday.  Mind you that was the most insanely stressful bicker fest I have ever gotten myself into, being an acidhead and using metaphors to try to convey the unfathomable to a laymen in a way it might illuminate his mind.  So stressful, he rejected so many of my essays and made me rewrite them as opposed to just flunking me.  It took me several quarters of time for us to see eye to eye on the matter.  You want to discuss Freud, Jung?  How about classical literature, maybe Joseph Campbell? 

I think we have a lot to talk about, maybe a little I can teach you.  Those were just a few ideas, you know you can have a completely bootable clone of your hard drive via USB, Firewire, or Thunderbolt based on your macbook's age?  It's so much better than just using Time Machine (which is practically worthless these days since most of the apps already continually make drafts and sync them to iCloud or what not...)  Anyways, say your internal hard drive died, you'd just plug it in and hold down option when you boot and fire back up your machine until you had the chance to take it into the Apple Store or have a tech savvy friend fix it for you.  Runs a little slower due to the input/output not being on the SATA bus or PCI-E, but is sure better than having no computer at all.  You know if screen real estate is a thing for you, you can dock your macbook up to a big ass 27" 1440p display if you wanted, use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse if desired.  There are even hengedocks (I use one) where you just sit your mackbook in it and it's ready to go, a complete desktop replacement... THAT IS what a 15" Macbook "pro" is designed for, to be a desktop replacement!  Casual use in an armchair or at the airport or w/e is what most tech users do with the internal display.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23441846 - 07/14/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Double WHOA! :eek: :yesnod: :lol:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23442017 - 07/14/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear.... :wtf:  :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23445206 - 07/15/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear.... :wtf:  :lol:





I changed the words 'holy and profane' to "the sacred and the profane" in my last book edit to reflect the title of Eliade's book that so influenced me when I read it in 1974. Unfortunately, Eliade was a hateful antisemite for whatever reason. So utterly distasteful for so esteemed a scholar. :sad: When I see something like that, the intellection then seems to be a sterile exercise instead of a real passion. When I met author Thomas More (Care of the Soul) and he was arrogant to me while eyeing my former girlfriend up-and-down. The arrogant lech's book suddenly seemed to be a mere intellectual construct without any personal reality. Eliade of course was on a higher intellectual order, establishing facts, not his idealized life experience, but it's a bummer. Heidegger was a Nazi sympathizer. Same deal. I can't help thinking that the thing that makes men hate has somehow tinged whatever their writings are, and I wonder if something of their distorted hateful perspective has been covertly communicated to me.  Maybe I'm wrong because I can look at Hitler's paintings and agree that some are actually good. :shrug:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23445519 - 07/15/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The difficulty is this - if you look honestly at the carnage that Abrahamic religion has wrought on the world, it's hard not to despise the people who invented it.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23445612 - 07/16/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Prior to civilization, there was no civilization.

from Abramic organized society we have moved through a brutal agrarian to a post industrial society.

conversely the stable static caste system of India and the dynastic organizations of the far east have been good at keeping things as they were for thousands of years and are now taking charge of all human advances.

If you want to hate, then who can stop you. personally I dislike gangs, including Abramic ones, but people on their own are charming and mysteriously complex creatures, from all origins.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23447502 - 07/16/16 06:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear.... :wtf:  :lol:





I changed the words 'holy and profane' to "the sacred and the profane" in my last book edit to reflect the title of Eliade's book that so influenced me when I read it in 1974. Unfortunately, Eliade was a hateful antisemite for whatever reason. So utterly distasteful for so esteemed a scholar. :sad: When I see something like that, the intellection then seems to be a sterile exercise instead of a real passion. When I met author Thomas More (Care of the Soul) and he was arrogant to me while eyeing my former girlfriend up-and-down. The arrogant lech's book suddenly seemed to be a mere intellectual construct without any personal reality. Eliade of course was on a higher intellectual order, establishing facts, not his idealized life experience, but it's a bummer. Heidegger was a Nazi sympathizer. Same deal. I can't help thinking that the thing that makes men hate has somehow tinged whatever their writings are, and I wonder if something of their distorted hateful perspective has been covertly communicated to me.  Maybe I'm wrong because I can look at Hitler's paintings and agree that some are actually good. :shrug:




I actually didn't know that! :frown:  Depressing, sort of reminds me of reading Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game series when I was maybe 10-11yo.  Man, I loved those books, even in retrospect they were just genre fiction, the escapism was heavenly at the time.  I used to love to get all day detention because I could finish all my school work within an hour or so and then just read the rest of the day :lol:... Anyways, I later learned he was a homophobic Mormon and was awed by the cognitive dissonance....  People are thick man, I'm actually incredibly fascinated by what makes them tick, even when it is ugly.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinepeearejay
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23449279 - 07/17/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It happened one day that a crow came upon two magpies, who were fighting between themselves to no end. They had built a wall between their nests of trinkets taken from the pockets and nightstands of the village, and ceaselessly fought over which side was finest. "When I gaze upon my wall, o brother, I see a shimmering lake and the face of a god and thus my side is finest!" And his brother would say "You are a fool, o my brother, for when I gaze upon my wall I see stalks of wheat, corn, barley and rye, all in gold and silver. Truly my side is the finest." And so they had argued.

The crow, seeing their consternation, came to them and said "o brothers, you are both wrong, and you are both right. For what you see as different things are simply the self-same coin."


Of all my experiences, one in particular convinced me that whatever notion of reality I'd formed from the summation of all available sensory data and cognition was absolutely false. It came from a powerful hit of DMT. I became instantly aware that I had, up to this point, known nothing of the true nature of the world, and what comprised the truth was stranger than I could process.

This article in particular which is written by about cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman's ideas makes perfect sense to me as to why psychedelic use can drastically alter what we accept as true about the world and our perceptions of it. It discusses *perceived* reality as simply a function of our evolutionary systems, a sort of simulation we run to stay alive and pass on genes. And it makes sense. All games are essentially tests of fitness in some way, and as such we are creatures capable of creating our own miniature perceived realities. Why should we not expect that our baseline experience itself is removed some levels from the truth of things?


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I'm just really excited to be here, can't you tell by my face?


Edited by peearejay (07/18/16 11:20 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: peearejay]
    #23449323 - 07/17/16 09:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Very nice post, peearejay.  I agree wholeheartedly that the consensus-reality type "reality tunnels" (cf. R.A. Wilson) we have for interfacing with reality on a daily basis are only one level -- a low level -- among many that can be realized by the primate nervous system.  Taking Wilson a bit further, I follow the law of sombunall -- declarations of reality do not have to represent certainty, as they are true sometimes but not always, and in some but not all ways.

In the end, our normal perception of reality gives us a miniscule amount of heavily biased information.  We are totally fallible.  If we could find a way to perceive more readily from higher vantage points, the shroud between us and the truth might become fractionally less opaque.  That would be valuable.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: peearejay]
    #23450284 - 07/17/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

all I can encourage is this: beware of 'the expert'

Don't let them further divide you from sensual experience and then put in their 'reality'

It is the 'scientific' equivalent of the Hindu doctrine of Maya: Reality as illusory


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23450350 - 07/17/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So why should we trust you when you tell us to beware of the expert?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23450406 - 07/17/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

well beware of shroomerites too, haha. they might be on drugs.
trust yourself if you have to trust someone.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23451876 - 07/18/16 05:05 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
So why should we trust you when you tell us to beware of the expert?





I never told you to trust me, and I'm not selling books or talks

there was also some talk about people loving some author's ideas and then later finding out some thing they didn't like about his main beliefs and life . so what we got on this Hoffman guy then??? :strokebeard:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23453081 - 07/18/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

viktor said:
So why should we trust you when you tell us to beware of the expert?





I never told you to trust me, and I'm not selling books or talks

there was also some talk about people loving some author's ideas and then later finding out some thing they didn't like about his main beliefs and life . so what we got on this Hoffman guy then??? :strokebeard:




You said "Don't let them divide you from sensual experience".

But why should we listen to you? Maybe 'they' are sharing some advantage to us in letting go of sensual experience. Maybe there's a benefit to us in it.

What makes you the expert on whether or not we ought to be divided from sensual experience?


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
    #23453484 - 07/18/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

look. this is a forum. The whole purpose of it is that people share ideas, and may challenge worldviews. deal with it:rolleyes:


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