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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines]
#23421048 - 07/07/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: happy birth day markos you are so young.
Thank you RGV! I AM young-at-heart, but my heart is centered into a 62 year, 363 day old body! Still fairly svelt and toned, but oy vey, don't let me get started!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23421076 - 07/07/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! 
Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.
I think you're stretching the colloquialism 'smart phone,' a tad. It can make one smarter insofar as it's a portal to the internet, which is basically the electronic repository of all human knowledge, sans top and top top secret material. I have certainly learned more from access to the internet than I could've without, having to rely on going to university graduate libraries around Miami instead. In my home or out on the street, I can look up anything that comes to mind, although I MUCH prefer a 15" or larger screen for doing so.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#23421129 - 07/07/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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BrendanFlock said: True Materialism..is of substance..and things that have substance are material...so therefore..the self..and its extensions..thoughts ideas..cultures..and citys...even all the scientific know how and objectives...are all directed as and from material..we are substance..and that is what materialism continues to this day to be!
Human beinghood is a hybrid of matter and mind, substance and the nonsubstantial. Aldous Huxley said that mind is "amphibious" insofar as it is intermediary between matter and spirit, and can identify with both. Most people do not attempt to balance this intermediary position of mind's nature in order to be aware of both, but unconsciously assume the bias of their sensory organs for filling the mind. There are those relatively few individuals who live the life of the mind, say pure mathematicians, theoretical cosmologists, or quantum physicists (for whom only a small amount of theory can be translated into empirical experimentation, like the Large Hadron Collider). Then there are those rare spiritual beings who see more of spiritual reality than most of us, those for whom their actual experience is described by the Buddhist axiom "Nirvana is Samsara, Samsara is Nirvana," or who abide in Sat Chit Ananda, both formulations consisting in a gnosis which obliterates the materialistic bias that the majority of us live in (the dualism as others have pointed out here), despite our best efforts to transcend the duality.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
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CosmicJoke said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! 
Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.
I think you're stretching the colloquialism 'smart phone,' a tad. It can make one smarter insofar as it's a portal to the internet, which is basically the electronic repository of all human knowledge, sans top and top top secret material. I have certainly learned more from access to the internet than I could've without, having to rely on going to university graduate libraries around Miami instead. In my home or out on the street, I can look up anything that comes to mind, although I MUCH prefer a 15" or larger screen for doing so.
Well, I'd also contend that you could use your 15" more intelligently . It's a tough transition though to go from working to use your computer to making it work for you. Then the possibilities become quite remarkable, imho.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23424009 - 07/08/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can always learn more, but I concede that you're an expert in the matter, and I am not. I DO engage experts in things which are not my forte: accountants, lawyers, physicians, surgeons, dentists, analysts, etc., etc.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23424565 - 07/08/16 07:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Must every tripper be an non-materialist?

MAKE HOODIES!!
I'LL BE LOST THEN FIND ME AND LET'S MAKE SOME MONEY!!
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There are those relatively few individuals who live the life of the mind, say pure mathematicians, theoretical cosmologists, or quantum physicists
they are also very human, with all the usual foibles
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I can always learn more, but I concede that you're an expert in the matter, and I am not. I DO engage experts in things which are not my forte: accountants, lawyers, physicians, surgeons, dentists, analysts, etc., etc.
Well I would love to teach you more, perhaps some day in person. Really your imagination is about the boundaries of what you can do... For example, with a small investment you could have all your CDs archived digitally on a server and use your phone as a remote to listen to any album or playlist wirelessly to any or all speakers in your house. Or, have all your DVDs archived and have them all accessible with the click of the remote w/ full metadata from IMDB, cover art, etc. to watch on your TV with a $25 raspberry pi front end (oh, and forget all the previews and other nonsense, click and watch). You could get phillip hues lights, you can create all sorts of ambience with them or use them as a wild equalizer for your music. Those are only a few suggestions, I have thousands of ideas, surely some of them would appeal to you.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: mt cleverest]
#23433208 - 07/11/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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mt cleverest said: Sports are beneath you? Don't be so elitist. Everything is sport. Someone just mentioned the Game of Life by Leary. It's all a competition of who can outmatch, outwit, out-enlighten who. There are clear winners and losers to everything in every forum you can think of, this one too. We're all trying to win this thread and it's all in good fun.
You're just peering at life through the lens of your Manipura chakra, Alfred Adler's Individual Psychology with its Social Interest, Superiority vs. Inferiority, Organ Inferiority and adopted Nietzschean "Will-to-Power." I have disliked sports since I was in 3rd grade - 1961-62. Do you think that I experienced being elitist when I was a 9 year old boy and every one wanted to talk about 'the ballgame' from the night before? Think again. I had to compete in life, but I never went about it from the Adlerian perspective. I endeavored to work against my own limitations, and I never intentionally competed against others. If my dissertation topic was accepted and someone else's wasn't, one had nothing to do with the other and I was not in competition with anyone. That may be YOUR meta-motive, but it has not been mine. I never acted unethically for personal gain. I gave my all when I was interested in something, just as I take the time on these forums to be as clear as I can.
From your perspective, it is evident that you resent those who actually ARE elite in some way. I earned a Ph.D. degree which puts me in a single digit percentage of the American population. But I graduated from a large state university, not an Ivy League institution, so relative to my achievement, I can see more prestigious Ph.D.s. Do you think I accuse those doctoral recipients as being elitist? They actually ARE, but good for them. It's all relative and a useless 'game-rule' to adhere to. I remember those kids in PE class who would get all excited and angry if I didn't play some game like I wanted to win. It wasn't about getting a grade, and there was no reward except the absurd 'win vs. lose' Adlerian motive which I used to laugh at and still do. It's not like professional ball players who stand to make or lose huge payouts.
I stay up to 3 or 4 a.m. most nights reading philosophy and theology. Does that make me elitist in your eyes? Probably, I'd surmise. This is something I'm into, not playing with a baseball/football/volleyball/basketball/polo-ball/soccer ball. The majority of males I've known in my 63 years enjoy some sport. I however do not, but hey, knock yourself out. I couldn't care less about anything in life than ballgames. The 'Game of Life' draws on an idea that Leary undoubtedly knew about when he was in Harvard's Department of Social Relations from the 1955 book Homo Ludens: A Study in the Play Element in Culture by Johan Huizinga. I read it myself a couple of years ago. This take is another level of human socio-cultural identity, which is another facet of the Manipura chakra psychology/Adlerian theory of human motivation.
Your words that state that people compete to "out-enlighten" others assures me that you do not understand the usual meanings for enlightenment in any idiom I know of. I suggest that you look into reading Robert De Ropp's book The Master Game. It is a "High Game" that you are not engaged in if you think it's a competitive activity. Here is a brief outline: http://www.livereal.com/spiritual_arena/spiritual_members/master_game.htm
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03 
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23433813 - 07/12/16 12:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know, but I do know every stripper must be materialistic.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23434955 - 07/12/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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WHOA! Sounds impressive both in theory and practice. Is it, (I wonder) not a good thing to be content with what I am accustomed to? I must simplify in various ways in order to make moment-to-moment psychological room for Spaciousness (which I prefer to the word Emptiness in Buddhist parlance). The technology is amazing as is your expertise in it, and it offers as you say boundless possibilities. You might be dismayed at the simplicity, sparse sociality, and inwardness of our lives because of the difference in which decade you are in compared to the one we're in (or the one Rose will be in come August ). I think that our existence would drive you quite mad in time, but in midlife and beyond, inwardness become more natural and no longer runs counter to the outward flow of youthful energies towards novelty, new experiences, complexity, movement upon the earth.
The multiplicity and complexity of life is being distilled as it were into simplicity. Sounds depressing to youthful ears, but it is a necessary "second half of life" process that Jung wrote about and is anything but joyless. It's not quite the kind of geriatric joy of a good meal followed by a good bowel movement - not yet anyway, but in a certain sense, life is more trip-like in its fixed-gaze intensity in retirement. That just means that much of my youthful enthusiasm for novelty is much reduced. I still enjoy analog old school 2-channel stereo vs. theatre sound systems with BlueTooth, MP3 dock, etc. We do use AirPort Express to stream Mac content through the Marantz receiver and thence to any or all of 3 rooms (soon to be 4) and the back yard. I do engage our TV with my favorite kaleidoscope program on YouTube while the stereo operates separately. But this is all extremely primitive compared to what is possible with different components that you are conversant with. Nevertheless, we both would welcome your expertise with interest in what is possible here at home with the old folks.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Mmm, I don't know man, you directly gave me a list of books as recommendations to talking the head of my philosophy department to take a chance with me on an independent study on mysticism. I remember Otto, Underhill, Govinda like it was yesterday. Mind you that was the most insanely stressful bicker fest I have ever gotten myself into, being an acidhead and using metaphors to try to convey the unfathomable to a laymen in a way it might illuminate his mind. So stressful, he rejected so many of my essays and made me rewrite them as opposed to just flunking me. It took me several quarters of time for us to see eye to eye on the matter. You want to discuss Freud, Jung? How about classical literature, maybe Joseph Campbell?
I think we have a lot to talk about, maybe a little I can teach you. Those were just a few ideas, you know you can have a completely bootable clone of your hard drive via USB, Firewire, or Thunderbolt based on your macbook's age? It's so much better than just using Time Machine (which is practically worthless these days since most of the apps already continually make drafts and sync them to iCloud or what not...) Anyways, say your internal hard drive died, you'd just plug it in and hold down option when you boot and fire back up your machine until you had the chance to take it into the Apple Store or have a tech savvy friend fix it for you. Runs a little slower due to the input/output not being on the SATA bus or PCI-E, but is sure better than having no computer at all. You know if screen real estate is a thing for you, you can dock your macbook up to a big ass 27" 1440p display if you wanted, use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse if desired. There are even hengedocks (I use one) where you just sit your mackbook in it and it's ready to go, a complete desktop replacement... THAT IS what a 15" Macbook "pro" is designed for, to be a desktop replacement! Casual use in an armchair or at the airport or w/e is what most tech users do with the internal display.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23441846 - 07/14/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear....
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23445206 - 07/15/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said: That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear.... 
I changed the words 'holy and profane' to "the sacred and the profane" in my last book edit to reflect the title of Eliade's book that so influenced me when I read it in 1974. Unfortunately, Eliade was a hateful antisemite for whatever reason. So utterly distasteful for so esteemed a scholar. When I see something like that, the intellection then seems to be a sterile exercise instead of a real passion. When I met author Thomas More (Care of the Soul) and he was arrogant to me while eyeing my former girlfriend up-and-down. The arrogant lech's book suddenly seemed to be a mere intellectual construct without any personal reality. Eliade of course was on a higher intellectual order, establishing facts, not his idealized life experience, but it's a bummer. Heidegger was a Nazi sympathizer. Same deal. I can't help thinking that the thing that makes men hate has somehow tinged whatever their writings are, and I wonder if something of their distorted hateful perspective has been covertly communicated to me. Maybe I'm wrong because I can look at Hitler's paintings and agree that some are actually good.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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The difficulty is this - if you look honestly at the carnage that Abrahamic religion has wrought on the world, it's hard not to despise the people who invented it.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23445612 - 07/16/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Prior to civilization, there was no civilization.
from Abramic organized society we have moved through a brutal agrarian to a post industrial society.
conversely the stable static caste system of India and the dynastic organizations of the far east have been good at keeping things as they were for thousands of years and are now taking charge of all human advances.
If you want to hate, then who can stop you. personally I dislike gangs, including Abramic ones, but people on their own are charming and mysteriously complex creatures, from all origins.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: That professor always used to play this trump card with me that he was a student of Mircea Eliade... Such a grumbly bear.... 
I changed the words 'holy and profane' to "the sacred and the profane" in my last book edit to reflect the title of Eliade's book that so influenced me when I read it in 1974. Unfortunately, Eliade was a hateful antisemite for whatever reason. So utterly distasteful for so esteemed a scholar. When I see something like that, the intellection then seems to be a sterile exercise instead of a real passion. When I met author Thomas More (Care of the Soul) and he was arrogant to me while eyeing my former girlfriend up-and-down. The arrogant lech's book suddenly seemed to be a mere intellectual construct without any personal reality. Eliade of course was on a higher intellectual order, establishing facts, not his idealized life experience, but it's a bummer. Heidegger was a Nazi sympathizer. Same deal. I can't help thinking that the thing that makes men hate has somehow tinged whatever their writings are, and I wonder if something of their distorted hateful perspective has been covertly communicated to me. Maybe I'm wrong because I can look at Hitler's paintings and agree that some are actually good. 
I actually didn't know that! Depressing, sort of reminds me of reading Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game series when I was maybe 10-11yo. Man, I loved those books, even in retrospect they were just genre fiction, the escapism was heavenly at the time. I used to love to get all day detention because I could finish all my school work within an hour or so and then just read the rest of the day ... Anyways, I later learned he was a homophobic Mormon and was awed by the cognitive dissonance.... People are thick man, I'm actually incredibly fascinated by what makes them tick, even when it is ugly.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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peearejay
Taco Truck



Registered: 01/09/16
Posts: 16
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke] 1
#23449279 - 07/17/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It happened one day that a crow came upon two magpies, who were fighting between themselves to no end. They had built a wall between their nests of trinkets taken from the pockets and nightstands of the village, and ceaselessly fought over which side was finest. "When I gaze upon my wall, o brother, I see a shimmering lake and the face of a god and thus my side is finest!" And his brother would say "You are a fool, o my brother, for when I gaze upon my wall I see stalks of wheat, corn, barley and rye, all in gold and silver. Truly my side is the finest." And so they had argued.
The crow, seeing their consternation, came to them and said "o brothers, you are both wrong, and you are both right. For what you see as different things are simply the self-same coin."
Of all my experiences, one in particular convinced me that whatever notion of reality I'd formed from the summation of all available sensory data and cognition was absolutely false. It came from a powerful hit of DMT. I became instantly aware that I had, up to this point, known nothing of the true nature of the world, and what comprised the truth was stranger than I could process.
This article in particular which is written by about cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman's ideas makes perfect sense to me as to why psychedelic use can drastically alter what we accept as true about the world and our perceptions of it. It discusses *perceived* reality as simply a function of our evolutionary systems, a sort of simulation we run to stay alive and pass on genes. And it makes sense. All games are essentially tests of fitness in some way, and as such we are creatures capable of creating our own miniature perceived realities. Why should we not expect that our baseline experience itself is removed some levels from the truth of things?
-------------------- I'm just really excited to be here, can't you tell by my face?
Edited by peearejay (07/18/16 11:20 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: peearejay]
#23449323 - 07/17/16 09:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Very nice post, peearejay. I agree wholeheartedly that the consensus-reality type "reality tunnels" (cf. R.A. Wilson) we have for interfacing with reality on a daily basis are only one level -- a low level -- among many that can be realized by the primate nervous system. Taking Wilson a bit further, I follow the law of sombunall -- declarations of reality do not have to represent certainty, as they are true sometimes but not always, and in some but not all ways.
In the end, our normal perception of reality gives us a miniscule amount of heavily biased information. We are totally fallible. If we could find a way to perceive more readily from higher vantage points, the shroud between us and the truth might become fractionally less opaque. That would be valuable.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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