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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23412467 - 07/05/16 01:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think that our typologies works as filters. I don't know what typology Francis Crick was, but he saw the DNA helix on LSD. A natural like Friedrich Kekulé didn't take a psychedelic, but he was able to translate an archetypal dream of the Ouroboric serpent with tail-in-mouth into a benzene ring and develop organic chemistry from there.
Believe it or not, not everyone wants to be enlightened! You still hold youthful enthusiasm if you still value your experiences. Dont allow that enthusiasm to perish. The very word enthusiasm means being filled by God. The Cipher character in The Matrix had an awakening, but he preferred the illusions/delusions of The Matrix to the suffering that accompanied his awakening. I knew a highly paid personal injury attorney who regarded his experiences as "just a drug" and dismissed any implications of his experiences so that he could indulge himself with status cars and other materialistic possessions. Meanwhile his wife of 13 years left his very obnoxious self, taking a $400,000 house, $4000 a month alimony, their 3 kids, and $1 Million in cash. He couldn't seem to find any women but users and gold-diggers. That's what he deserves from what I've seen. Cipher wanted to be "someone important, like an actor," which tells us a lot in this latter-day mythos.
I saw this in college 40+ years ago. It is a matter of “I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?" - Chuang Tzu. Since butterfly is Psyche (soul) in Greek, and even though this is Chinese, the point is that we are both spiritual and material realities conjoined, 'amphibiously' as Aldous Huxley said, mind which is able to identify with spirit or matter. But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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zzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23412582 - 07/05/16 03:50 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
zzripz said: Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other
Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides
or think east and west
Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?
no, meta
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zzripz
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Quote:
But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.
That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.
The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~
The sound of the water Says what I think.
~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit
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viktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23413746 - 07/05/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
zzripz said: Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint.
Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?
no, meta 
So you represent the meta pole, as opposed to the non-meta pole?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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zzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23413883 - 07/05/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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your lost in abstracts. that is trouble with syntax. you have to feel your way into this or you just keep saying 'well there is anti that' bit like the infinite regressive question 'so who made God?' the question is limited Yes, when I feel pain I do, but I do not imagine a place ehere there is 'no pain' as a reality. Sure there may seem a dimension where it is all glowy and no pain, but I am imagining it from a place where you CAN feel pain too
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viktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23413983 - 07/05/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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zzripz
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23414065 - 07/05/16 03:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.
you just don't get what I am trying to communicate is more like it
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23414072 - 07/05/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.
That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.
The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~
The sound of the water Says what I think.
~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit
Agreed.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23414173 - 07/05/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
viktor said: I'm just pointing out that you are also trapped in dualism, just like the rest of us.
you just don't get what I am trying to communicate is more like it
I don't think anyone really does
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things.
That's true. they have a myth of 'matter' as being a thing. They dont see, feel, touch the spirit of matter. It is just dull, dead, objectified. This is exactly what this culture, its 'education system', etc mind-control many with. This is why more and more we see people walking around, even in the most wonderful places absorbed utterly in their little hand-held computers, and/or absorbed in some music fastened to their ears.
The other day I was walking in this really wonder full park, and was listening to all the natural sounds, birds, wind, leaves rustling, sound of animals (there is a community farm), running water, and this part of a Haiku poem (am not a zennist, but love many of these poems)~~
The sound of the water Says what I think.
~~came to mind. My mind was full of these natural sounds, naturally. But many people are totally immersed in chitty chattyness, or manufactured electronic music, much of which has lost its soul. So in effect they are denying their spirit which is a part of nature's spirit
Agreed.
I think that's totally judgmental, I use my smartphone on my commute (yes I walk to work) to listen to audiobooks and podcasts and further my education. Doesn't stop me from looking people in the eye and giving them a warm smile and saying hello, doesn't stop me from noticing all the indigenous plants here (I can tell you about each and every one of them), doesn't stop me from stopping and smelling the roses. You'll never see me fiddling with my phone while out to dinner and having a conversation, I give people my full attention because I enjoy being with them.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23414301 - 07/05/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Manufactured electronic music has aided in some of my most trancendental experiences, Mr. Judgey
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23414594 - 07/05/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.
Damn, bro's gonna need some aloe vera for that sick burn.
--------------------
full blown human
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viktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#23414740 - 07/05/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's just that I've been where the dude is...
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23415047 - 07/05/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.
This might be the crux of it for me. Identification with matter is just so boring. It seems to me to be the default stance of a person of limited intelligence.
Perhaps this is because the less intelligent someone is, the more literally they take things. I know a lot of humour goes unappreciated because the person hearing it was too dumb to realise it was humour.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23415144 - 07/05/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience.
A strong psychedelic experience might teach you that everything you know is wrong. It's not the sort of thing you can prepare for. It's too weird for words, which you would know if you had had one.
I don't care if you've taken 8g or 80g. The more that you are in your everyday mindset the weaker the experience is, and if you're sitting there going "hmmm I've taken a drug, good thing I prepared myself beforehand" then your experience is weak.
Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.
I 'mentally prepare' for a psychedelic experience by remembering that I'm taking drugs and my perceptions are likely to be altered, like with alcohol I know that if I drink enough of it I'll get drunk.
If a 'strong' psychedelic experience makes you believe that everything you know is wrong then maybe you just had a weak mind to begin with.
Usually the more of a drug someone takes, the more intense or 'strong' the experience will be. If someone is taking drugs without realising it will alter their mindset then in my view that is incredibly irresponsible and naive.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23415150 - 07/05/16 09:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: But most men identify primarily and dominantly with matter, and in so doing, they treat other human beings as things. My biological brother is another lawyer who refers to people in terms of whether he 'has use' for them. You know the saying that there are those who use things and love people, and those who use people and love things? Well here is the divide.
This might be the crux of it for me. Identification with matter is just so boring. It seems to me to be the default stance of a person of limited intelligence.
Perhaps this is because the less intelligent someone is, the more literally they take things. I know a lot of humour goes unappreciated because the person hearing it was too dumb to realise it was humour.
Look at the majority of the multitudes who value ball-players of every type, over ANY scientist, philosopher, artist, author, poet, or peace-maker. Talented as their hand-eye coordination is, personally, I am now, and have always been totally uninterested in their talents. I prefer, for example, the men and women at NASA who applauded and hugged one another each other over their control over the Juno probe. THOSE people, whose scarcely detectible movements got the Juno probe within one second of its scheduled time, after a billion mile trip. They're not glamorous, but THEY are important. THEY are VIPs IMO.
I don't give a good goddamn over a Dwayne Wade who is offered $40 million to put a round ball in a round hoop. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. No, I can't do it, no I'm not envious of those who can, I'm just utterly and completely uninterested. I have never watched a basketball game, and the only time I watched a football game (a Giants game) was in November 1964. I hated the whole thing, and don't mind admitting that I know nothing about the games (my wife knows football very well, but she doesn't watch either). The NASA scientists are the future of this planet, but they're not usually in giant hulking bodies, they don't drive Bentleys, they don't 'get the bitches' with their 'fly' lifestyles of the rich and famous, or appear in tabloids because of testosterone-fuelled crimes.
Now, NASA scientists are not necessarily transcendentalists or mystics, at least not to the public to which I belong, but they do live the life of the mind. I would not be surprised at any mystical sentiments entertained by some of these scientists, but at the very least I bet they have real imagination. Imagination may well be the interface between mind and matter if one considers Jules Verne's fictional atomic submarine Nautilus manifesting in matter a century after he imagined it. Imagination, intuition, and intellection are more intrinsic to human beinghood than are the physical bodies we are enfleshed with. But again, although everyone proclaims that they are a human beings, the multitudes pretty much evidence their existence as merely human mammals. Some even disclose that they are themselves "intelligent meat." Meat-heads are not all that intelligent.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
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I think our attitudes to sport are one thing we definitely do not have in common 
I watch a lot of cricket and rugby, but I reckon you could understand my perspective. If you think of the game in terms of order and chaos it's a lot easier.
Take baseball, for example. The batsman is trying to impose order upon the trajectory of the ball. So he is the yang force. The pitcher is trying to impose chaos upon the trajectory of the ball, by getting it to twist and slide and dip in the air (and hopefully beat the bat). So the pitcher represents yin.
If you think of it in terms of yin and yang, then watching any sport is just like watching any other natural process, like waves washing up on a beach.
The flipside of all this is that very, very few, if any, of the actual players could or would appreciate this perspective, for the reasons you mentioned. So there's an irony for those who appreciate it.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: We all realize that you do not belong to the set "most men!" You're fairly unique CJ! 
Maybe, my only point is that you could maybe, oh ever so possibly, use a "smart phone" to become, well.... smarter? Maybe so, maybe not.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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laughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23416136 - 07/06/16 06:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Must every tripper be an non-materialist?
No but they should be able to survive purely by telepathy and join the breatharians ...
you dig man
that would be like totally awsome
cool
hip
profound
superlative
the shit
cosmic
so fucking what?
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