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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23411017 - 07/04/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST) said (roughly) "The truth, believed is a lie."
This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
#23411028 - 07/04/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: To answer OP's question directly, no. I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.
If you were able to keep in mind that what you were experiencing was drug influenced then you weren't very high to begin with.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Just know that if you and I were huddled somewhere under fire I would not be afraid, and would be happy to shoot someone shooting at you.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23411052 - 07/04/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
sudly said:
As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.
Can you expand on this? Or articulate more?
Non-dual is self explanatory as it's a materialistic view of reality.
As for the dichotomy of experience. Punching a rock and feeling the the sensation of pain is an externally originated experience. Thinking the rock would look better if it were painted green is an internally originated experience.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (07/04/16 05:11 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23411055 - 07/04/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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(roughly)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23411088 - 07/04/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
sudly said: To answer OP's question directly, no. I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.
If you were able to keep in mind that what you were experiencing was drug influenced then you weren't very high to begin with.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Just know that if you and I were huddled somewhere under fire I would not be afraid, and would be happy to shoot someone shooting at you.
If I'm taking drugs like magic mushrooms I like to mentally prepare myself by remembering that I'm taking drugs. I'm not going to forget that I'm on drugs just because I'm high, even on 8g shrooms I don't forget that I've taken shrooms.
Terrorists are usually considered freedom fighters by other terrorists with the similar mindsets seeing as they believe what they are doing is 'right'.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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viktor
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly] 1
#23411149 - 07/04/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience.
A strong psychedelic experience might teach you that everything you know is wrong. It's not the sort of thing you can prepare for. It's too weird for words, which you would know if you had had one.
I don't care if you've taken 8g or 80g. The more that you are in your everyday mindset the weaker the experience is, and if you're sitting there going "hmmm I've taken a drug, good thing I prepared myself beforehand" then your experience is weak.
Personally I think a guy with your sort of mind would benefit more from booze and getting laid. Don't take my advice as if I'm an expert though.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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laughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
#23411174 - 07/04/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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“Non-dual is self explanatory as it's a materialistic view of reality. “
a definition of ‘duality’ could be: if I think of what I’m going to say in response to you while you are talking, instead of listening, whereas if I really listened (for example) i might hear the hurt in your tone of voice and know you did’t mean what the words literarily meant, but were hurting inside.
so what duality implies is separation, as opposed to joining. so psychedelics or not, every time we put “others” first we are freed from the prison of self.
If you told gangsters or people in the hood where they must constantly fight for respect that anger is actually a bunch of painful/stressful sensations in the body they would look at you as if you were crazy. Like wise saying self is a prison seems insane, to most people. Yet in orgasm, the self merges; and when playing a sport ‘in the zone’ self fades, and people crave these experiences. it seems because convention gives us no vocabulary for this aspect of our lives we tend to miss it. But psychedelics are not necessary to manifest compassion.
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laughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23411189 - 07/04/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST) said (roughly) "The truth, believed is a lie."
This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).
your point is too subtle for me
what do you feel a second comma will do?
after all it is only a re-iterization of a basic Zen insight.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23411221 - 07/04/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Again, if your psychedelic experience was something that you 'mentally prepared' yourself for beforehand, then it was a weak psychedelic experience. ...
a) I bet you mentally prepare for everything even if you declare you don't you do, and then brute through. b) weak is bad, strong is good, I see, you are using the ancient cro magnon approach to something that needs a bit of delicacy. c) get drunk and get laid, this is not on the table unless you are strong and mentally unprepared.
somehow everything is deeply twisted and grinding tighter with every turn.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog] 1
#23411227 - 07/04/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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it's the second comma of christ
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23411232 - 07/04/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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You do you viktor, you do you.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines]
#23411238 - 07/04/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it's the second comma of christ
very cute
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
#23411244 - 07/04/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: You do you viktor, you do you.
U DO U
could be a new dance
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23411253 - 07/04/16 05:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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or a killer billion dollar website, udodu.me
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23411271 - 07/04/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
viktor said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST) said (roughly) "The truth, believed is a lie."
This is a really good one, it struck a chord in me. I think I'll be saying it for some time to come (only with a second comma after 'believed' haha).
your point is too subtle for me
what do you feel a second comma will do?
after all it is only a re-iterization of a basic Zen insight.
A second comma would make the sentence grammatically correct. Just a silly joke on my part
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23411405 - 07/04/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've never really understood the label of "materialist", but I have been accused of it often in this forum. Yet I have tripped many times, mostly on LSD and some on shrooms. Thus, if I am a materialist, the answer to the subject is clearly "no" by counterexample.
But it looks like you are exercising circular logic. A "true" tripper is only one that comes to the same conclusions as you, thus all trippers must have come to your conclusions.
Edited by DieCommie (07/04/16 06:42 PM)
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laughingdog
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: DieCommie]
#23411706 - 07/04/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: But it looks like you are exercising circular logic. A "true" tripper is only one that comes to the same conclusions as you, thus all trippers must have come to your conclusions.
"circular logic' might almost? be the definition of belief.
"because a black cat crossed my path before I fell, black cats cause falling" So next time I will fall when...
'I know the world is immaterial, so folks who don't are material!!!!!!!'
Help I think I need another drink! What's on tap?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] 2
#23411875 - 07/04/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So you're talking about philosophical materialism, but that is connected to crass materialism. I have a young friend who has taken a lot of acid and mushrooms, but she is becoming increasingly about designer shoes, a $3000 per month penthouse apartment, prestigious vacation spots, etc. She happens to be an Introverted Sensing type according to the MBTI, and as such her 5 senses dominate her values, not the higher Intuitive function replete with cosmic insights, which apparently does not blossom during her high dose trips. She experienced ego-death I believe for the first time with us, but instead of listening to my explanation as a crucifixion of the ego, or another mythic dismemberment (Osiris, Dionysus, Prometheus, etc.) and without taking any time to process the trip, she assumed that she was physically ill and even physically dying! She never processed the psychospiritual meaning of ego-death and the implications for awareness of the 'Eternal Ground of Being.'
"Now the created soul of man hath also two eyes. The one is the power of seeing into eternity, the other of seeing into time and the creatures, of perceiving how they differ from each other as afore-said, of giving life and needful things to the body, and ordering and governing it for the best. But these two eyes of the soul of man cannot both perform their work at once; but if the soul shall see with the right eye into eternity, then the left eye must close itself and refrain from working, and be as though it were dead. - Theologia Gemanica
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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viktor
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What then, Markos, do you make of the sort of person who can take a high dose of a psychedelic and, nonetheless, find the experience devoid of any lingering value or perception-shattering insight?
When I used to believe that the psychedelic experience was a matter of putting the right chemicals into the right neurotransmitter receptors, I also believed that anyone taking a sufficient dose would, without fail, have a powerful and enlightening trip.
Some people identify with the false self so strongly that when they trip and feel it dying they really believe that it is them dying. This sort of person usually also considers the state of tripping to be some kind of "drug impairment" from which they return to "sane thinking".
There are many on this forum though who use the experience as an opportunity to let go and become happy. What of the others? Do they just need to trip more or is it an absence of metanoia that makes them the way they are?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] 1
#23412412 - 07/05/16 01:10 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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My personal feeling is that holding such polar views produces a somewhat less confusing mural of ideas, some to accept and some to reject. It is this false sense of "knowing" that produces comfort. It makes sense that people will avoid holding and considering viewpoints that make themselves more confused. The primary motivation, to make sense of the world, or perhaps to seek truth? Even in that sense the lines can be blurred. To seek truth assumes one should be able to ascertain what is true and what is not true regarding the fundamental nature of the universe... for the purpose of making sense of the world?
For my part, I cannot conceive of a reality that is primarily consciousness, nor can I conceive of a reality that is strictly material. These ideas make no sense to me on their own, and yet I don't have the answers. I would only hold one view (and reject the other) as a means of seeking shelter from my own mind, which of course I've played around with, but in my experience trying to be polaristic about it creates a sense of sacrificing logical integrity. I would rather be confused.
Everyone else feels a little better knowing the shaman is the craziest fucker in the tribe. However, I do like the way you describe a proper trip leading to temporary ego death leading to permanent change of mindset. For me it's not that the world is in reality pure consciousness, but that my fears are relatively inconsequential in the larger picture. That is the core message of "ego death" regardless of what the true nature of reality may be.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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