|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Must every tripper be an non-materialist?
#23410363 - 07/04/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
It's clear that, when people first come into the world and haven't done much investigation, the world appears to be material. You can touch it, you can taste it, you can sense it in many ways, and so the natural conclusion appears to be that it is real and it is there and we are in it.
Many psychedelic drug users do not agree. I don't need to explain the reasons to anyone who has tripped, which I assume we all have.
To my mind, if you haven't tripped so hard that your belief in the primacy of the material world has been shattered and it no longer makes sense that you are merely a crawling monkey-like being birthed from a fleshy mother who is doomed to die, then you are not really a tripper.
A proper trip ought to destroy all the false beliefs and associations that exist in your mind until there is nothing left but pure consciousness, and in this state one's recollection of the 'material' world gradually returns. Not as something that has any primacy any more, but as a kind of dream that one plays a role in for the satisfaction of consciousness itself.
At best, such a person who has gone through the motions of tripping without the revelation (like a religious person chomping his wafers). Many, many trips do not have a truly profound psychedelic experience as part of them - many trips are just about sights and sounds and feeling different (which is 100% legitimate).
The shamanic journey is to travel away in spiritual space and return with something of value. I contend that this thing of value is that the material world is an illusion, and that there is therefore really nothing to fear from death.
Am I right? Must every tripper be a non-materialist on the grounds that if they are not they have not seen anything awesome and are therefore not a tripper? Or is there more to it?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] 1
#23410463 - 07/04/16 01:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
What you say on first reading sounds so clear and crisp and intelligent
on 2nd thought it is clear you are one of the chosen ones
on 3rd thought thousands and thousands in the 60's tripped the best acid, in mega doses, and really, long term, little came of it
a tiny percentage who were effected more deeply went on to study with meditation teachers
Lastly many who espouse your view remain dependent on very specific very material substances to maintain this view, rather a contradiction.
Beliefs are only beliefs. How we live, feel, and relate to others also matter. Perhaps there are gaps between the two sometimes?
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog] 2
#23410520 - 07/04/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, I'm starting to suspect that the psychedelic experience is so unique to the individual that simply taking a massive dose is far from a guarantee that you will have a profound experience.
It seems more like that the drug is a metaphysical seed, and without the right soil in the form of the right mind it cannot take root and fulfill its potential.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] 1
#23410555 - 07/04/16 02:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
all this talk about rightness is kind of right wing. your opinion is yours or right for you.
I am of the mind that spirit is part of matter - materialist.
no amount of pounding will change that view
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 4 hours, 15 minutes
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor] 1
#23410594 - 07/04/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
this might be controversial around these parts - but i believe the kind of experiences a person has on psychedelics might be based to some degree on karma from past lives (and of course also a result of permutations of current beliefs, memories, etc... from their current life)
but many traditions hold that the soul traverses many lifetimes as it evolves and eventually ascends/enlightens/etc. so to me, it seems possible that a trip could bring back whatever spiritual insight / development a person had in a previous life. some people take a small dose and have a profound level 5 trip that changes their life on the first dose - whereas others take massive doses for years without such a life-changing experience. so who knows
--------------------
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: deff] 2
#23410634 - 07/04/16 02:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, that's interesting. I have felt on some trips that a connection was established with past lives in the sense that I came to identify with the part of me that has survived through all these past lives, namely consciousness.
If consciousness is more of a frequency than anything else, it's possible that achieving a certain frequency in this life might cause you to resonate harmoniously with the frequency of consciousness that you were at in another life. This might make it easier to remember certain bits of information.
If this process repeated across lifetimes it could be like an alchemical burning away of impurities, leaving the gold of pure consciousness.
It might also be that a person who has been dull in all of their past lives cannot get very high in this one, because of the above reasons.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410654 - 07/04/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other
Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides
or think east and west
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: deff] 1
#23410661 - 07/04/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deff said: this might be controversial around these parts - but i believe the kind of experiences a person has on psychedelics might be based to some degree on karma from past lives (and of course also a result of permutations of current beliefs, memories, etc... from their current life)
but many traditions hold that the soul traverses many lifetimes as it evolves and eventually ascends/enlightens/etc. so to me, it seems possible that a trip could bring back whatever spiritual insight / development a person had in a previous life. some people take a small dose and have a profound level 5 trip that changes their life on the first dose - whereas others take massive doses for years without such a life-changing experience. so who knows 
I've experienced that as well my first time taking 400ug and taking a bong rip of heady nugs at the peak, was completely rocked out of my body, experienced the whole Brahma Sleeping, Brahma waking phenomenon, saw my soul as something like this Arabian prince riding on a magic carpet, dipping down into the 3d space and time to incarnate, to see if it was the right environment to grow and go back home. It was really fucking convincing at the time. I saw, and I believed.
But then I keep hearing other people's cosmological experiences on various drugs and see the way that they've been colored by their cultural reality grid, MtG linked me a TED talk where some guy took ayahuasca awhile back and his visions had many Western, Christian themes to it, traversing through hell and such, and that if he didn't quit smoking cannabis he would be sent to such a hell realm.
Now I see and don't believe so much, but it's still quite important for me to go down the rabbit whole and see what's lurking.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz]
#23410726 - 07/04/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said: ...It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a[n] interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other ...
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23410743 - 07/04/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
zzripz said: ...It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a[n] interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other ...

--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410784 - 07/04/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
this also raises an interesting question
I suppose we think of the Tibetan Buddhists (Dali Lama etc.) as the epitome of spirituality
but is reincarnation, spiritual or material ?
seems to contradict the notion of pure consciousness, does it not?
rein---carnation
carnal
carcass
meat
if pure consciousness must enforce karma, on suffering sleeping beings, it's not exactly free and immaterial and compassionate is it?
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: zzripz] 1
#23410808 - 07/04/16 03:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zzripz said: Seems to me that the very idea 'matter', thus nature, is illusory is coming from a dualistic viewpoint. In history this idea has come from Eastern mysticism, and also ancient mystery schools, Orphism, Gnosticism. It is really the extreme OF materialism where it is claimed there is only 'matter', whilst for the idealist there is only 'spirit' and/or consciousness, and therefore there happens a feeling one is not really part of nature. It is though the dualistic mind NEEDS to side with a side. it cannot embrace the ambiguous nature of nature whereby there is a interwoven dynamic, eg light AND dark, male AND female, life AND death, spirit AND matter, where you cannot have one part of the dynamic without the other
Split a magnet and you will always have the negative and positive sides
or think east and west
Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410818 - 07/04/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
anti-duel-ist
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410826 - 07/04/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
viktor said:
Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?
and you call Sudly autistic
funny
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#23410837 - 07/04/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I sometimes think that materialist, non-materialist, artist, poet, musician, scientist, etc. are just all different varying aspects of Self and you can change the channel between them.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: laughingdog]
#23410848 - 07/04/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
viktor said:
Sp you represent the anti-dualist pole?
and you call Sudly autistic
funny
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23410853 - 07/04/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: I sometimes think that materialist, non-materialist, artist, poet, musician, scientist, etc. are just all different varying aspects of Self and you can change the channel between them.
I think you can; you can also stay on one channel long enough to watch the duration of the show.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410942 - 07/04/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Am I right? Must every tripper be a non-materialist on the grounds that if they are not they have not seen anything awesome and are therefore not a tripper? Or is there more to it?
Some might say If you have to ask, the revelation wasn't total. Like wise if it must be re-enforced by repeated dosing.
Also as long as there is attachment to a separate personality that feels it realizes something special, a non-dualist state of being wouldn't seem to be really grounded.
I do not doubt, that your life feels better, and you have less anxiety than you used to, as a result of tripping.
But I am reminded of an old joke.
An angel and the devil are walking down the street when a man runs down the street shouting: "I have seen!! God is real!!" the Angel says "now you're in trouble aren't you?" and the devil says: "No, I'll help him organize!"
or as Wenner Erhard (spelling?)(founder of EST) said (roughly) "The truth, believed is a lie."
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: viktor]
#23410955 - 07/04/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
This is how terrorists are made. People start thinking the world is non-material and they'll be reborn in a better afterlife so they go off and commit their atrocities without fear of repercussions because in their mind it's all a dream.
To answer OP's question directly, no. I've had some intense psychedelic experiences but I kept in mind the absurdities and synchronicity I was experiencing were drug induced/influenced.
As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Must every tripper be an non-materialist? [Re: sudly]
#23411007 - 07/04/16 04:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said:
As for a materialistic view of the universe, we live in a non-dual reality that has a dichotomy of experience, internal and external.
Can you expand on this? Or articulate more?
|
|