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Offlinekoods
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Re: California is fucked [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407724 - 07/03/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I've said before, the culture is the problem, not the guns, even if you ban every gun available, people are still gonna go on rampant killing sprees, the Boston bombers used pressure cookers, mcveigh use diesel and fertilizer.

I'm glad Canada has low gun crime, and even that one guy admitted that when they raid meth shacks, they almost always find illegal guns. The guns aren't what make mass murderers, the culture does.

Banning guns is just putting a bandaid on the real problem, which is far deeper and much harder to treat



The real problem are the people who think guns are the solution to guns.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: California is fucked [Re: Eminence]
    #23407732 - 07/03/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Private sales also arnt tracked in any way in a lot of states. Given that info I cant believe someone actually brought up the amount of armed robberies last year as a reason to keep them easy to acquire. Its insane to suggest restricting their sale wouldnt have an impact. These are mass produced items with an already highly regulated industry. Rules and regulations would have an immediate and tangible impact because of its centralization. Drugs on the other hand are already decenteralized commodities and much harder to fight.




i'm for tighter restrictions; i was just expressing ambivalence towards an outright ban. i'm totally fine with tracking sales and having measures in place that ensure that extra dangerous weapons are only sold to people we can trust with them.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

criminals don't follow laws, so surely the only option is banning and confiscating guns




you're completely ignoring the issue. the majority of mass shooters, or at least the majority of the last 16 mass shootings (per the times' article linked in my previous reply), have acquired their weapons legally. if we can enact policies that can help keep weapons out of the hands of people who would misuse them, then we should.

Quote:

Eminence said:
Think about this...if your boyfriend or a family member was a victim of a lethal mugging or a home invasion, and the aggressor had an illegally acquired gun and shot that person to death while they were scrambling around looking for something that would be even mildly useful as a weapon, would you have second thoughts about having a license to own a gun?




in my view, everyone should be allowed to defend themselves. i'm not for a blanket ban on weapons. and in my view, it should remain legal to acquire weapons. but it also seems reasonable to have some tighter measures in place that will ensure that weapons do not legally reach the wrong hands.

Quote:

I haven't read about how many deaths are due to legally acquired guns, but I wonder if those stats take into account how many are suicides. About the Orlando shooter, I'm not sure what to make of it now that police chiefs are saying it was the SWAT team that did it..but either way, that suspect's name was apparently scrubbed off the DHS watch list by the same people who want to enforce stricter gun control, so I don't trust their intentions.




i'm truly shocked that you've read little about the facts about mass shootings. but if you ever get around to it, you'll see that the article i cited only talks about the last 16 mass shootings and not suicides. and i would be really interested in seeing your source that claims that the SWAT team carried out the orlando attack instead of the shooter. but the fbi dropped the ball on the orlando shooting. they shouldn't let that happen again. 

Quote:

Gun control isn't the answer, that's been made clear by seeing how many safe countries allow citizens to buy them. There's clearly other problems in America that contribute to gun violence. That's mental illness and people being useless with background checks I think. I know you've heard it a hundred times already but banning guns isn't going to stop people from making bombs, using knives, fire, vehicles etc. if they want to kill someone. Guns are just tools, and they've already been invented so unless we end up with the toughest customs in the world and make a watch list of people buying 3D printers and explosive powders they're here to stay.




stepping up with background checks and closing the gun show loophole is part of gun control. and nobody is seriously proposing a blanket ban on all weapons. i'm certainly not for that.

Quote:

Also the NY Times is garbage.




you're entitled to your opinion. but since you've admitted that you haven't even seen the article i cited, your opinion seems baseless.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (07/03/16 04:49 PM)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: California is fucked [Re: koods]
    #23407737 - 07/03/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

And I might add, these gun enthusiasts you like to bitch about, are 80 million Americans, they are not the problem either. Blaming them is fucking retarded, if they were all crazy psychopaths,
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
One incident is not a substantial amount of data points. Overall the incident rate of home invasions in the states is fairly low, and the amount of people killed during them averages around a 100 a year. Nationwide. Compare that to the rate of mass shootings and its fairly cut and dry which side should lose if you want to appeal to personal safety. It isnt even an argument at this point.

You likely did something to warrant that home invasion happening anyways. Given the demographic of this sites userbase.

Honestly youre more likely to win a million+ dollar jackpot then getting shot in your home, but I doubt youre out there blowing your life savings on lottery tickets.




Let's face it, gun owners don't really evaluate risk well at all. They think owning a gun will protect them in the extremely rare cases of home invasion, bit ignore the far more likely outcome that their gun will be the cause of their own death or the death of someone else in an accident, or moment of suicidal or homicidal impulse.

There are a couple hundred home invasions a year. There are dozens of accidental shootings A DAY. Do the math. Guns don't make you safer, but trying to use reason to convince an irrational gun fetishist is pointless.




Pointless like explaining the 2A to an irrational gun hating retard,



I think I have a much better grasp on the 2A then most of the people in this thread. I've actually read the court decisions.




Which means absolutely nothing, you've stayed repeatedly the 2A only gives civilians use of single shot arms, while unable to cite that anywhere in the constitution.

You've also stated that courts have upheld state gun bans, but never acknowledging that it's the FEDERAL govt who the 2A prohibits form banning  gun use

If you're gonna debate this issue on the merits of what the 2A actually says and what courts have actually upheld, it would be helpful if you were at least honest about the rulings


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Offlinekoods
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy]
    #23407744 - 07/03/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Gun control isn't the answer, that's been made clear by seeing how many safe countries allow citizens to buy them. There's clearly other problems in America that contribute to gun violence. That's mental illness and people being useless with background checks I think. I know you've heard it a hundred times already but banning guns isn't going to stop people from making bombs, using knives, fire, vehicles etc. if they want to kill someone. Guns are just tools, and they've already been invented so unless we end up with the toughest customs in the world and make a watch list of people buying 3D printers and explosive powders they're here to stay.



This is completely contrary to the facts. The states with the least amount of gun deaths are those that have the tightest gun control regulations.

As for alternative weapons, if guns are so replaceable, why do you fight so hard for them? You can just use a bomb, or knife. You know that guns are much more effective killing tools than anything else.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: California is fucked [Re: koods]
    #23407746 - 07/03/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Gun control isn't the answer, that's been made clear by seeing how many safe countries allow citizens to buy them. There's clearly other problems in America that contribute to gun violence. That's mental illness and people being useless with background checks I think. I know you've heard it a hundred times already but banning guns isn't going to stop people from making bombs, using knives, fire, vehicles etc. if they want to kill someone. Guns are just tools, and they've already been invented so unless we end up with the toughest customs in the world and make a watch list of people buying 3D printers and explosive powders they're here to stay.



This is completely contrary to the facts. The states with the least amount of gun deaths are those that have the tightest gun control regulations.

As for alternative weapons, if guns are so replaceable, why do you fight so hard for them? You can just use a bomb, or knife. You know that guns are much more effective killing tools than anything else.





Becuase they are our RIGHT, and yes, it says so right in the constitution


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: California is fucked [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407756 - 07/03/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

rackem said:
why did this go to a personal level? this is why this debate never gets anywhere productive.  keep the personal attacks out of it.




Never happen when debating with progressives, when they run out of facts, which is usually quickly, they attack personally, it's disgusting but it's a tried and true tactic they've use successfully for generations




lol you are one to talk. i have yet to see you make a coherent objection to anything, anytime, anywhere. and that's not personal; it's just a statement of fact. most of the time, you don't even speak to what's actually being discussed. and your ignorance about 'progressives' is truly staggering. generations? progressives weren't even the same groups at the beginning of the 20th.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: California is fucked [Re: koods]
    #23407759 - 07/03/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You've also stated that courts have upheld state gun bans, but never acknowledging that it's the FEDERAL govt who the 2A prohibits form banning  gun use




You're calling me retarded? You clearly have no clue about constitutional law.

It really doesn't matter what your opinion of the second amendment is. What matters is the courts, and no court has ever found an unlimited right the bear arms, and the current case law based on numerous cases over the decades says that most if not all semi-automatic weapons are not constitutionally protected.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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InvisibleEminence
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Re: California is fucked [Re: koods]
    #23407766 - 07/03/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I said countries, not states. That's why there have been people on this page saying its other issues in America, not guns themselves. Some of the most dangerous countries when it comes to gun crimes also banned them. And I'm about using guns for protection, not murdering people, so I don't see how that argument about them being replaceable makes any sense. You think I should have to rely on bombs and knives to defend myself if I could take the most efficient route for my own safety and just shoot someone that's trying to kill me or my family?


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy]
    #23407770 - 07/03/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
i'm for tighter restrictions; i was just expressing ambivalence towards an outright ban. i'm totally fine with tracking sales and having measures in place that ensure that extra dangerous weapons are only sold to people we can trust with them.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

criminals don't follow laws, so surely the only option is banning and confiscating guns




you're completely ignoring the issue. the majority of mass shooters, or at least the majority of the last 16 mass shootings (per the times' article linked in my previous reply), have acquired their weapons legally. if we can enact policies that can help keep weapons out of the hands of people who would misuse them, then we should.

Quote:

Eminence said:
Think about this...if your boyfriend or a family member was a victim of a lethal mugging or a home invasion, and the aggressor had an illegally acquired gun and shot that person to death while they were scrambling around looking for something that would be even mildly useful as a weapon, would you have second thoughts about having a license to own a gun?




in my view, everyone should be allowed to defend themselves. i'm not for a blanket ban on weapons. and in my view, it should remain legal to acquire weapons. but it also seems reasonable to have some tighter measures in place that will ensure that weapons do not legally reach the wrong hands.

Quote:

I haven't read about how many deaths are due to legally acquired guns, but I wonder if those stats take into account how many are suicides. About the Orlando shooter, I'm not sure what to make of it now that police chiefs are saying it was the SWAT team that did it..but either way, that suspect's name was apparently scrubbed off the DHS watch list by the same people who want to enforce stricter gun control, so I don't trust their intentions.




i'm truly shocked that you've read little about the facts about mass shootings. but if you ever get around to it, you'll see that the article i cited only talks about the last 16 mass shootings and not suicides. and i would be really interested in seeing your source that claims that the SWAT team carried out the orlando attack instead of the shooter. but the fbi dropped the ball on the orlando shooting. they shouldn't let that happen again. 

Quote:

Gun control isn't the answer, that's been made clear by seeing how many safe countries allow citizens to buy them. There's clearly other problems in America that contribute to gun violence. That's mental illness and people being useless with background checks I think. I know you've heard it a hundred times already but banning guns isn't going to stop people from making bombs, using knives, fire, vehicles etc. if they want to kill someone. Guns are just tools, and they've already been invented so unless we end up with the toughest customs in the world and make a watch list of people buying 3D printers and explosive powders they're here to stay.




stepping up with background checks and closing the gun show loophole is part of gun control. and nobody is seriously proposing a blanket ban on all weapons. i'm certainly not for that.

Quote:

Also the NY Times is garbage.




you're entitled to your opinion. but since you've admitted that you haven't even seen the article i cited, your opinion seems baseless.




The thing is mass shootings are a very small proportion of the overall gun deaths, which even all together is relatively low. Roughly 10k a year and a lot of that is gang violence. Mass shootings are just covered extensively by the media. Lawmakers are proposing stripping the rights of millions of americans because 1 in a million people are killed in a mass shooting a year. Freedom comes at a cost. Even if i didn't shoot I'd feel safer knowing there are millions of Americans with ar 15's and high capacity mags due to the direction our government is headed.

BTW the florida shooter was reported to the fbi by a suspicious gun shop employee and they did nothing.

Edited by luvdemboomers (07/03/16 05:08 PM)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: California is fucked [Re: koods]
    #23407781 - 07/03/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

You've also stated that courts have upheld state gun bans, but never acknowledging that it's the FEDERAL govt who the 2A prohibits form banning  gun use




You're calling me retarded? You clearly have no clue about constitutional law.

It really doesn't matter what your opinion of the second amendment is. What matters is the courts, and no court has ever found an unlimited right the bear arms, and the current case law based on numerous cases over the decades says that most if not all semi-automatic weapons are not constitutionally protected.




Fair enough, (not sure where I called you retarded in all that but ok)

One more thing is the courts are NOT the all knowing all seeing never wrong infallible system, like so many progressives claim them to be, the Supreme Court one time upheld slavery, they can be wrong, and fhere is constitutional recourse to overturn them

But I digress, when speaking to progressives, sometimes I forget the past is irrelevant, so for now the courts are ruling your way, doesn't make it right, fair or just.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: California is fucked [Re: Eminence]
    #23407782 - 07/03/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
I said countries, not states. That's why there have been people on this page saying its other issues in America, not guns themselves. Some of the most dangerous countries when it comes to gun crimes also banned them. And I'm about using guns for protection, not murdering people, so I don't see how that argument about them being replaceable makes any sense. You think I should have to rely on bombs and knives to defend myself if I could take the most efficient route for my own safety and just shoot someone that's trying to kill me or my family?




you are making absolutely zero sense with what you're saying, and you're now going off in a few different directions like pretty much everyone who espouses your views does when someone refutes their points.

nobody rationally denies that mass shootings involve a confluence of factors, including mental health; the ease of which weapons are legally obtained is another one of those factors, an inconvenient fact for opponents of sensible gun control. and again, since you're not much of a reader, i'm not suggesting that anyone who is legally eligible to own a firearm not be allowed to justifiably defend themselves with one. an outright weapons ban is not only untenable but unwise.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Registered: 01/11/13
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy]
    #23407787 - 07/03/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

Eminence said:
I said countries, not states. That's why there have been people on this page saying its other issues in America, not guns themselves. Some of the most dangerous countries when it comes to gun crimes also banned them. And I'm about using guns for protection, not murdering people, so I don't see how that argument about them being replaceable makes any sense. You think I should have to rely on bombs and knives to defend myself if I could take the most efficient route for my own safety and just shoot someone that's trying to kill me or my family?




you are making absolutely zero sense with what you're saying, and you're now going off in a few different directions like pretty much everyone who espouses your views does when someone refutes their points.

nobody rationally denies that mass shootings involve a confluence of factors, including mental health; the ease of which weapons are legally obtained is another one of those factors, an inconvenient fact for opponents of sensible gun control. and again, since you're not much of a reader, i'm not suggesting that anyone who is legally eligible to own a firearm not be allowed to justifiably defend themselves with one. an outright weapons ban is not only untenable but unwise.





What restrictions would you propose?

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InvisibleLocN9ne
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy]
    #23407788 - 07/03/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

If they ban all guns are the police still gonna carry?


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: California is fucked [Re: luvdemboomers] * 1
    #23407789 - 07/03/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
Quote:

millzy said:
i'm for tighter restrictions; i was just expressing ambivalence towards an outright ban. i'm totally fine with tracking sales and having measures in place that ensure that extra dangerous weapons are only sold to people we can trust with them.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

criminals don't follow laws, so surely the only option is banning and confiscating guns




you're completely ignoring the issue. the majority of mass shooters, or at least the majority of the last 16 mass shootings (per the times' article linked in my previous reply), have acquired their weapons legally. if we can enact policies that can help keep weapons out of the hands of people who would misuse them, then we should.

Quote:

Eminence said:
Think about this...if your boyfriend or a family member was a victim of a lethal mugging or a home invasion, and the aggressor had an illegally acquired gun and shot that person to death while they were scrambling around looking for something that would be even mildly useful as a weapon, would you have second thoughts about having a license to own a gun?




in my view, everyone should be allowed to defend themselves. i'm not for a blanket ban on weapons. and in my view, it should remain legal to acquire weapons. but it also seems reasonable to have some tighter measures in place that will ensure that weapons do not legally reach the wrong hands.

Quote:

I haven't read about how many deaths are due to legally acquired guns, but I wonder if those stats take into account how many are suicides. About the Orlando shooter, I'm not sure what to make of it now that police chiefs are saying it was the SWAT team that did it..but either way, that suspect's name was apparently scrubbed off the DHS watch list by the same people who want to enforce stricter gun control, so I don't trust their intentions.




i'm truly shocked that you've read little about the facts about mass shootings. but if you ever get around to it, you'll see that the article i cited only talks about the last 16 mass shootings and not suicides. and i would be really interested in seeing your source that claims that the SWAT team carried out the orlando attack instead of the shooter. but the fbi dropped the ball on the orlando shooting. they shouldn't let that happen again. 

Quote:

Gun control isn't the answer, that's been made clear by seeing how many safe countries allow citizens to buy them. There's clearly other problems in America that contribute to gun violence. That's mental illness and people being useless with background checks I think. I know you've heard it a hundred times already but banning guns isn't going to stop people from making bombs, using knives, fire, vehicles etc. if they want to kill someone. Guns are just tools, and they've already been invented so unless we end up with the toughest customs in the world and make a watch list of people buying 3D printers and explosive powders they're here to stay.




stepping up with background checks and closing the gun show loophole is part of gun control. and nobody is seriously proposing a blanket ban on all weapons. i'm certainly not for that.

Quote:

Also the NY Times is garbage.




you're entitled to your opinion. but since you've admitted that you haven't even seen the article i cited, your opinion seems baseless.




The thing is mass shootings are a very small proportion of the overall gun deaths, which even all together is relatively low. Roughly 10k a year and a lot of that is gang violence. Mass shootings are just covered extensively by the media. Lawmakers are proposing stripping the rights of millions of americans because 1 in a million people are killed in a mass shooting a year. Freedom comes at a cost. Even if i didn't shoot I'd feel safer knowing there are millions of Americans with ar 15's and high capacity mags due to the direction our government is headed.

BTW the florida shooter was reported to the fbi by a suspicious gun shop employee and they did nothing.




You're forgetting one important thing, progressives don't give a shit about facts, they see all gun owners as right wing conservatives, who they HATE, disarming them is priority number 1, they could give two shits about gun violence and what not, if they did, they would focus on high crime, high killing areas like Chicago...


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: California is fucked [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #23407798 - 07/03/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemboomers said:

The thing is mass shootings are a very small proportion of the overall gun deaths, which even all together is relatively low. Roughly 10k a year and a lot of that is gang violence. Mass shootings are just covered extensively by the media. Lawmakers are proposing stripping the rights of millions of americans because 1 in a million people are killed in a mass shooting a year. Freedom comes at a cost. Even if i didn't shoot I'd feel safer knowing there are millions of Americans with ar 15's and high capacity mags due to the direction our government is headed.

BTW the florida shooter was reported to the fbi by a suspicious gun shop employee and they did nothing.




i'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree, but mass murders that regularly occur due to a corrupted legal and political system is not something that can even be overblown by the media in my view. even if it happened once a year, it's something we should be taking seriously. and we can easily address the problem without infringing anyone's rights.

and yep, i agree, the fbi dropped the ball. that doesn't really change the fact that some sensible tweaks to our policies might be helpful in addressing the issue.


--------------------
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InvisibleMasked
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Re: California is fucked [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407802 - 07/03/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

masked said pages ago:
I feel your lax gun policies are the reason it's so easy to have these massacres. 

And here is where someone brings up "Chicago stats" :rolleyes:


It doesn't do much good unless the entire country is unified on gun control and policies IMO :shrug:





Lol


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: California is fucked [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407805 - 07/03/16 05:18 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

We just gave you a comprehensive list of facts. You got mad and threw a tantrum.

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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy] * 1
    #23407808 - 07/03/16 05:19 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

What part of 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED' is difficult to understand?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: California is fucked [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #23407812 - 07/03/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemboomers said:

What restrictions would you propose?




i would just enact policies that would seek to ensure that extra dangerous weapons are only sold to people we can absolutely trust with them. to me, that is the cost of being able to freely express your right to own them, not tacitly endorsing mass murder by having ill conceived policies that factor into their occurrence.

i'm not for banning any weapons, just some extra measures in place that keep them in the right hands.


--------------------
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InvisibleMasked
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Re: California is fucked [Re: millzy]
    #23407816 - 07/03/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Which is what I and everyone is saying in here, when advocating gun control


Regardless, my mission isn't to convince or "convert" anyone.  Simply my reasoning for applauding California...for making some steps in the right direction in my opinion


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by kent101
* California is so fucked djfrog 2,448 16 10/29/03 11:26 PM
by AliceDee
* california is about to sucede from the nation,``~~ ZippoZM 1,547 12 12/23/03 10:14 PM
by wookie
* do not move to california
( 1 2 3 all )
kaiowas 4,702 40 09/07/04 09:15 PM
by schmektron
* Spores in California? Plok 1,373 5 09/08/04 09:40 PM
by Hooty
* For fuck's sake have some decency people
( 1 2 3 all )
ld50negative1 4,539 44 07/19/04 11:54 PM
by 40oz
* its so fucking hot here Anonymous 1,147 7 12/19/03 07:19 PM
by Ripple
* Hotel California/ Shining Wormsy 4,299 6 05/02/04 08:35 AM
by Wysefool

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