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laughingcat
Chemical Pharmacologist

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 41
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 months, 1 day
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New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. 1
#23405578 - 07/02/16 10:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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A Model for the Application of Target-Controlled Intravenous Infusion for a Prolonged Immersive DMT Psychedelic Experience
Andrew R. Gallimore, Rick Strassman
Frontiers in Pharmacology (free download)
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fphar.2016.00211/abstract
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Bluing
Subsecotioides Seeker


Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 372
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: laughingcat]
#23445846 - 07/16/16 02:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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And that would be an interesting one to volunteer for, if the model is ever tested with human subjects. I have had a number of personal exchanges with Rick in the past. His work is part of the reason I now frequent Shroomery.
-------------------- "I am......I am here......and I love" Forgive Yourself,...Forgive Yourself,...I love You,...Forgive Yourself Mycology is good for the Soul
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: Bluing]
#23446400 - 07/16/16 09:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's pretty easy to model things without actually doing them.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Bluing
Subsecotioides Seeker


Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 372
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: badchad]
#23461389 - 07/21/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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As I said, it would be an interesting one to volunteer for. If the model is valid, an hour or longer in hyperspace would be an unimaginably long reality for the psychonaut. Beggars thinking about.
One would imagine any testing would start with lesser times. I recall the interviews with some of the volunteers in the pioneering work Rick did in the 90's, talking about how eternal the time frame seemed at the high dose that was administered.
-------------------- "I am......I am here......and I love" Forgive Yourself,...Forgive Yourself,...I love You,...Forgive Yourself Mycology is good for the Soul
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Nature Boy
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Registered: 07/09/07
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: laughingcat]
#23461609 - 07/21/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmmm...not the best written paper, but it's a start. Seems to be a proposal of a methodology and a call to perform the study. No indication that approval is being sought, which I bet would take a decade.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: Bluing]
#23461725 - 07/21/16 06:21 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bluing said: And that would be an interesting one to volunteer for, if the model is ever tested with human subjects. I have had a number of personal exchanges with Rick in the past. His work is part of the reason I now frequent Shroomery.
If you ever talk to Rick again will you please make him aware of IV 4-aco-dmt so that maybe a future study can be done
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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laughingcat
Chemical Pharmacologist

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 41
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 months, 1 day
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: badchad]
#23483772 - 07/27/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: It's pretty easy to model things without actually doing them.
Just out of interest, how much pharmacokinetic modelling have you done?
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laughingcat
Chemical Pharmacologist

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 41
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 months, 1 day
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: Nature Boy]
#23483780 - 07/27/16 08:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said: Hmmm...not the best written paper, but it's a start.
Which parts do you feel are poorly written or unclear? (It's a serious question)
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Nature Boy said: Seems to be a proposal of a methodology and a call to perform the study.
Exactly - it's just a proof-of-principle, demonstrating that the pharmacokinetic properties of DMT would make such a study feasible. A first step...
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Nature Boy said: No indication that approval is being sought, which I bet would take a decade.
That might have been true 25 years ago, when Rick did his first study, but times have changed. Even then, a decade is rather extreme. Anyway, it's much easier to get approval for this kind of work now...
Anything positive to say?
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Eywa_devotee
Goddess Worshiper


Registered: 10/04/10
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: laughingcat]
#23484899 - 07/28/16 08:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know it would alter the experience slightly, but it probably would be best to prep the subject with a lower dose of a RMAOI-A before doing this. The body would react by pumping out more of the MAO enzyme to compensate as the drug is administered requiring a coincident increase of DMT to reach steady state blood levels. It would also be relatively easy to give an extended infusion of DMT using modern IV infusion gear that is used for giving chemo.
It seems the actual scientific point of this study would be to find where the internal mental and external physical realities coincide.
IMO it Sounds like it could be used for both lot of very good and very bad things. Seems like it could be used to rehabilitate addiction too. One other possible use could be to rehab dangerous criminal offenders such as sexual predators. Everything from brainwashing people to make them into assassins to healing psychic trauma like childhood sexual abuse would be possible applications of this protocol. The thin red line just got a whole lot thinner.
-------------------- "Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.
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laughingcat
Chemical Pharmacologist

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 41
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 months, 1 day
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: Eywa_devotee]
#23485420 - 07/28/16 11:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eywa_devotee said:it probably would be best to prep the subject with a lower dose of a RMAOI-A before doing this. The body would react by pumping out more of the MAO enzyme to compensate as the drug is administered requiring a coincident increase of DMT to reach steady state blood levels.
This is possible, but it's not clear how the physiology would respond to extended DMT infusion - these are things to be studied in any implementation of the model.
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Eywa_devotee said: It would also be relatively easy to give an extended infusion of DMT using modern IV infusion gear that is used for giving chemo.
Of course, but this method wouldn't give you the control that target-controlled IV infusion would, which can regulate the infusion rate in real-time to maintain a steady brain DMT concentration or move the subject into deeper levels of the space, which is why we developed the model...
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Eywa_devotee said: Seems like it could be used to rehabilitate addiction too.
We discuss this kind of psychotherapeutic application in the Discussion section of the paper...
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: laughingcat]
#23490176 - 07/29/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingcat said: Which parts do you feel are poorly written or unclear? (It's a serious question)
Well, first and foremost, I prefer proposals - especially those involving human subjects - to be presented to the medical community (even those presented merely for discussion purposes) to be set forth in far more particularity and detail. There’s not one mention of the ethical considerations of performing the study on humans without first confirming the hypothesis that a steady-state can even be achieved using a computer-assisted infusion device in an animal model. How about serial serum assays confirming the validity of your ability to achieve sustained target levels of DMT in a non-human species as proof of concept prior to moving on to humans?
The pharmacokinetics of DMT upon which this proposal relies was developed from an incredibly small sample. NINE people. Also, I find this statement incredibly amusing: “Target-controlled intravenous infusion is a methodology developed for use in general anesthesia...computer-assisted infusion devices are now routinely used to ensure anesthetic levels remain within the required therapeutic window.” As a surgeon (now retired) I can tell you from three decades of first-hand experience how CLINICALLY imprecise computer-assisted infusion devices actually are when it comes to both pain and sedation. The corollary for this study? Some people are guaranteed to be “DMT hardheads” and some “lightweights.” The notion (even if achievable) of a steady state across multiple individuals becomes an utterly invalid premise. A person's SUBJECTIVE experience may not be rationally related to their serum levels of DMT! No mention on how that is going to be dealt with.
Honestly, I could spend my whole week-end nit-picking the proposal’s premise and methodology. That’s not what I had planned to do so I’ll stop here.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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laughingcat
Chemical Pharmacologist

Registered: 10/02/10
Posts: 41
Loc: UK
Last seen: 10 months, 1 day
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Re: New Gallimore & Strassman paper on a DMT continuous IV protocol for extended immersion in DMT space. [Re: Nature Boy]
#23490304 - 07/29/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said:I prefer proposals - especially those involving human subjects - to be presented to the medical community (even those presented merely for discussion purposes) to be set forth in far more particularity and detail.
This is a valid point, although this isn't so much a proposal yet, but rather an attempt at a proof-of-principle that DMT would be suitable to TC-IV, using the limited serum data available.
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Nature Boy said:The pharmacokinetics of DMT upon which this proposal relies was developed from an incredibly small sample. NINE people.
Can't argue with that, but we had to use what data was available - this data was not acquired for this model, but from an earlier study. We don't have the funding for more extensive sampling yet. Having said that, this sort of sample size is not unusual in PK modelling studies.
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Nature Boy said: The notion (even if achievable) of a steady state across multiple individuals becomes an utterly invalid premise. A person's SUBJECTIVE experience may not be rationally related to their serum levels of DMT! No mention on how that is going to be dealt with.
Actually, we discuss this issue in some detail: we compare variation in subjective intensity of experience across subjects with variation in serum DMT concentration. We actually find that subjective intensity is much less variable than serum concentration (p7, Discussion).
I think perhaps you expected more from the paper than what we were able to offer - it's really only a first step kind of model. But anyway, I appreciate your comments - they'll be useful in any follow-up work we do.
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