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maddchef
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Registered: 09/04/09
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I have an issue with my lids
#23402432 - 07/01/16 09:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So I started to run my 941 and got maybe 1/4 through the cycle and ran our of propane and propane accessories. The meat of it is this: When I finally opened it up to get the jars for use on the stovetop it of course had a vacuum, apparently so did my jars and I hear hissing sounds from about half of them around the lid meaning the metal to glass seal of having the lids upside down has failed me.
Some of my lids are pretty old and rusty but some of the ones that were leaking are like new.
What this means to you/me: In a presto or mirro you won't be able to pull a vacuum in your pc at the end of cycle simply because of the way the pc is designed (shoddy) but..............your jars will still try to pull one.
This means as soon as the inside of your pc cools beyond a certain point it begins to draw outside air in and with it, contams.
Should those get sucked in your pc because of thermal dynamics and then get sucked into your jar that doesn't make a perfect seal well there goes your grow, sabotaged from the very beginning.
I've seen some people remedy this by yanking the weight off and wrapping the vent stem with an ISO soaked paper towel but we both know ISO evaporates very quickly. Maybe they use bleach and I read it wrong, ionno. But if this is or should be common practice we need to preach it more. Anyone ever seen their metal to glass lids fail this way?
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef] 1
#23402473 - 07/01/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Um, there shouldn't be any such vacuum if you unscrew the lids well enough to be able to wiggle them around, then wait for the PC to cool before opening it and tightening them.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23402485 - 07/01/16 09:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im so confused. Why would there be a vaccum at all?
And what kind of jars are these? Grain jars? PF jars? Shouldnt there be holes in the jar lids for GE, hence no vacuum?
so confused
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
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Inocuole
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He's talking about unmodded lids, upside down. If you unscrew them just enough, it works. I know this because I just did some agar this way. And we know full well that would show contams if there were any.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23402506 - 07/01/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have my lids on pretty tight but not tight enough I need a strap wrench to get them broken loose lol.
Didn't think having them barely sitting on the threads was common practice either?
Actually they are modded lids with a cellulose sfd which proves the size of the air leak since it would take the path of least resistance.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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CosmoKramer
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23402507 - 07/01/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Can't say that I've seen this.. But I always get them immediately at cool down. Like an hour at most after removing the rocker on prestos. It's still warm enough that warmer air is still pushing out of the pressure valve.
-------------------- "Get yourself some vitamin C with rose hips and bioflavonoids."
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: CosmoKramer]
#23402511 - 07/01/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I do that with filtered lids because that's the point of the filters. The unmodded lids take a couple extra precautions to go smoothly but, meh. I'll probably keep a mix of them going.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: CosmoKramer]
#23402512 - 07/01/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well you have the group "Leave your jars in your pc overnight to cool" and the other half who takes their jars out hot
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23402516 - 07/01/16 09:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I just explained the difference.. Taking filtered jars out hot is not an issue. But if you have a filter you want a halfway decent seal. How big are these GE holes?
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natedawgnow
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23402781 - 07/02/16 12:06 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I usually watch my pc and as soon as pressure equalizes, i open it. No vacuum gets pulled and i just set the lid back on but not enough to seal it and let the jars cool. I run an AA.
I also do my agar unfiltered. Just unscew the cap a bit, put foil over it and when you open the pc first thing to do is tighten the lid. I can't think of a single time i had a bad pour doing it this way
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23402935 - 07/02/16 02:21 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: He's talking about unmodded lids, upside down. If you unscrew them just enough, it works. I know this because I just did some agar this way. And we know full well that would show contams if there were any.
I see. Whats the major advantage of unmodified lids besides being super simple to "make"?
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maddchef
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I think that's the only upside but I'm not sure,
So most of you are babysitting your pc until the pressure drops and not just turning it off and walking away?
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:
Inocuole said: He's talking about unmodded lids, upside down. If you unscrew them just enough, it works. I know this because I just did some agar this way. And we know full well that would show contams if there were any.
I see. Whats the major advantage of unmodified lids besides being super simple to "make"?
Nothing? It's cool to not have to drill and silicone SFDs but you only do that once really so I'm not bothered by it much. I still do hate making holes and siliconing though, I try to make do without making new lids most of the time
I can't use the unmodded anyway, my jars only come with metal lids.
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23403322 - 07/02/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddchef said: I think that's the only upside but I'm not sure,
So most of you are babysitting your pc until the pressure drops and not just turning it off and walking away?
Babysit?

I don't even babysit it during the cycle, I got used to setting the gas so I only go in there once, when the pressure reaches 15PSI and I put it on a smaller burner.
When it's done I put it in from of my hood and I either go there 10-20 minutes later to take the jars out to cool fast or I leave the PC there if I don't need to work soon. I've left my presto full with grain jars on my stove on a few occasions and I never got a contam in my jars.
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MycoLoopology
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personally i just push the PC off the burner onto a cooler spot when my 120 minute cycle is up. then i let it sit over night, or all day, until its cool to the touch. this can take a while sometimes... but i wait till its completely cool, and then try to noc those jars ASAP!
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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NDStepp84
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If the jars are still hot I'd imagine if any contam was sucked into the jar it would be killed by the heat.
--------------------
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: NDStepp84]
#23403332 - 07/02/16 07:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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<<<< Spores.
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blindingleaf
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i cook jars with the regular circular weight PC (so it has no vacuum) and I turn it off and walk away. i use metal lids. sometimes they area little loose when im unloading them the next day, but I never had an issue i could back track to that
edit: throw a half cup of agar in one and use the grain lid on it and see what happens after a week if ur worried.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
Edited by blindingleaf (07/02/16 08:23 AM)
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: blindingleaf]
#23403429 - 07/02/16 08:27 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like the agar idea. My 941 has the regular weight but still pulls a vacuum.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Juiceh
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23403525 - 07/02/16 09:17 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: Im so confused. Why would there be a vaccum at all?
And what kind of jars are these? Grain jars? PF jars? Shouldnt there be holes in the jar lids for GE, hence no vacuum?
so confused 
So, if you run your PC properly you purge all air out at the beginning of the cycle. At the end of the cycle, when the steam condenses back to water it creates a vacuum where the air was previously. If your PC doesn't form a seal on cooldown or automatically drops a pressure valve to break the seal at 0psi that is where it will start pulling in air. Make sense?
Quote:
maddchef said: I like the agar idea. My 941 has the regular weight but still pulls a vacuum.
My 921 did that when new too. The vent pipe to regulator weight seal isn't perfect tho. It will lose vacuum faster and it won't pull vacuum as deep as an AA with a sterilizer valve.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Juiceh]
#23434794 - 07/12/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So tested this theory with my 941. Out of 18 jars 8 had some form of growth after about a week.
They all have the same filters so the only explanation is the imperfect seal made by the metl to glass lid. It was mold btw not bacteria
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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NDStepp84
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23434901 - 07/12/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Would think the mold has to be getting in somehow after the cycle and the jars have cooled, I have heard of ppl having problems with some molds like penicillin, which has very small spores and can sometimes even get through filters.
--------------------
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: NDStepp84]
#23435072 - 07/12/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wonder if when you break a vaccuum with a batch of jars if the filters get stressed any.
Contams getting through the lid is pretty improbable, especially 8/18. Same with smaller spores like ND mentioned. If it was 1 jar out of a batch or two it would make much more sense IMO.
I can't help but feel that the problem lies elsewhere.
Don't you have a flowhood mad? Can't you put the PC in front of it after a cycle? Or is it too heavy?
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maddchef
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it's way too fucking heavy.
I'm going lids down from now one for a while and run the same experiment
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23435457 - 07/12/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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PC aside letting jars cool on their own creates a vacuum and if you have a rust burr or any other non perfect metal to glass seal it's going to suck air in through there instead of the filter
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23435486 - 07/12/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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It'll suck air through there VERY slowly, so slowly in fact that contaminants won't be able to do the weird little... loopty they gotta do to actually get inside the jar. You are seriously overthinking PCing jars. And bags, and whatever else you're overthinking at this particular moment.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23435563 - 07/12/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Then give me a plausible explanation how unopened jars all with sfd's grew mold when they were run for 3 hours? And also why only some of them did so pointing to it not being a procedural error across the board.
Obviously outside air got in somehow and if the filters were bad wouldn't all the jars have the same issue?
I mentioned earlier in the thread about hearing a jar actually sucking in air (hissing) and I'm sure it wasn't from a compromised cellulose sfd.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23435574 - 07/12/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fuck it, you're cursed.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23435727 - 07/12/16 06:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol I believe it. I need to spring for plastic lids but I don't think they make a perfect seal either
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Inocuole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef] 1
#23435782 - 07/12/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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They don't but I did a round of unmodded plastic lids recently and I broke the vacuum with them half-unscrewed and did all kinds of goofy shit and they still worked.
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Mad Season
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23436066 - 07/12/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
if you have the rubber attached I highly recommend taking it off. This will make life much easier.
Just a suggestion? I stopped hearing the hissing when I did this. Also on my unmodified lids, if you leave it in the PC like an extra half hour - hour I don't hear any hissing either. Lid rims are still sticky tho..
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Mad Season]
#23436195 - 07/12/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I only ever heard the hissing with my lids turned upside down (gasket side up)
So while it might work for most it doesn't seem to work for me with an acceptable degree of success.
Whether it happened in the PC itself or while the jars were finishing cooling outside the pc air got in.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23436672 - 07/13/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't believe it got inside the PC and inside the jar either. That's too improbable to happen to 8 jars. I never even had 1 do that, let alone 8.
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maddchef
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An AA pulls a vacuum. So when you open the stopcock or take the weight off it proceeds to suck in air and depending on the internal temp of your jars they will likely be sucking in air too (should be through the filter. This is if you let your pc cool naturally overnight and don't pull the weight off right when pressure hits zero.
Well it happened. If it happened while they were still in the pc and it happened when I released the vacuum or if a temp swing cause air exchange while they were out of the pc I couldn't tell you.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23436698 - 07/13/16 12:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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A presto would still suck air, even though it doesn't pull a vaccuum. There are others who use an AA and never had this problem either. I think the problem lies elsewhere.
Is this PC new? Haven't you been doing jars for G2Ging bags in the past?
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maddchef
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a presto pulls in air but gradually. This was the first time I ran jars in my AA.
I do my jars previously in my 16qt or 23qt and never had this issue
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23436755 - 07/13/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Actually when I was doing all my jars in my 23qt I have a high failure rate that I could never pinpoint so this my have been the cause. My lids are pretty old and crusty
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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LocN9ne
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23436840 - 07/13/16 02:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddchef said:
Obviously outside air got in somehow and if the filters were bad wouldn't all the jars have the same issue?
No, just the ones that had a shitty filter job... Try making a different style of lid... For 50% of uninoculated jars to grow mold after be PC'd it has to be operator error... That is the only logical explanation... Try unmodified lids man...
--------------------
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maddchef
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: LocN9ne]
#23436893 - 07/13/16 03:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the filter was compromised what would account for such a sudden rush of air being pulled in that I could hear it hissing from a few feet back?
Also why haven't I seen any issues with my jars gasket side down where it makes a true seal?
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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LocN9ne
ɢᄋᄋd ԲᄋЯ ᄁᄋȚᅢΙᄁɢ ᄂᄋ₩ᄂΙԲᄐ



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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: maddchef]
#23437205 - 07/13/16 07:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I couldn't tell ya, but it wouldn't take but a tiny piece of the hot ass silicone to be compromised for shit to get sucked through it somewhere around the seal that is on the lid, silicone to a mason jar lid isn't really all that great of a bond... Especially if your filters are restricting enough airflow that you can hear the jars actively drawing a vacuum after a PC cycle... The air is going to take the path of least resistance...
I don't use SFD's... Do they restrict airflow to the point of drawing that hard of a vacuum in the jars for anyone else on here? That just sounds wrong... Even with unmodified lids loosened 1/4 turn I don't get that effect.
--------------------
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Supalemonhaze
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: LocN9ne]
#23437681 - 07/13/16 11:37 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think SFDs are the ones that restrict the most airflow out of all filters. For sure the most out of any filter I tried. Mine take the shape of the hole after a PC cycle if the jar seals itself during the cycle.
I dunno man, it seems your mind is made up. I really don't think this is the issue though. There's plenty of people who use AA's and this is the first I'm hearing of this.
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LocN9ne
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Last comment... I literally cannot see it being anything else except filter failure...
--------------------
Q&A US vs. THEM The more I learn, the less I know.
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Juiceh
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: LocN9ne]
#23438267 - 07/13/16 04:29 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddchef said: Also why haven't I seen any issues with my jars gasket side down where it makes a true seal?
Then why aren't you doing your jars rubber side down?
Quote:
LocN9ne said: I couldn't tell ya, but it wouldn't take but a tiny piece of the hot ass silicone to be compromised for shit to get sucked through it somewhere around the seal that is on the lid, silicone to a mason jar lid isn't really all that great of a bond... Especially if your filters are restricting enough airflow that you can hear the jars actively drawing a vacuum after a PC cycle... The air is going to take the path of least resistance...
I don't use SFD's... Do they restrict airflow to the point of drawing that hard of a vacuum in the jars for anyone else on here? That just sounds wrong... Even with unmodified lids loosened 1/4 turn I don't get that effect.
It's been working for home canners for decades. And the rubber seal to the glass jar is gonna make a whole lot better seal than rubber side up for a glass to metal seal. That shouldn't even be a debate. I'm not sure what exactly the rubber on the lid is made of. But it softens in the heat of the cycle and forms a hermetic seal as it contours with the glass. *edit* I thought you were talking about the rubber on the lid, not the siliconed SFDs. *edit*
I've been able to hear the pressure equalizing through my SFDs before. Of course you won't hear that with loosened lids. The pressure has already been equalized before you have taken them out of the cooker.
Edited by Juiceh (07/15/16 01:48 PM)
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rovert
Slow Down



Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 430
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Juiceh]
#23438654 - 07/13/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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When i run spawn jars my Plastic lids are almost always loose when i get done pc'ing because of the plastic expanding. I usually tighten them up right afterwards, give them a good shake and then loosen back up about a 1/4 turn. I read somewhere a while back from a TC, either frank or TL. But anyways they said they do the same with no contams. And I've never had a problem and I'm no TC lol. Now I imagine that if i and apparently other people can do that, that what you're talking about should be fine. Again I'm no Trusted Cultivator but i think it would be fine.
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Treasure Every Moment
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blackdust

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: rovert]
#23438780 - 07/13/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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So, does anyone else just skip all comments except Inocuole's like me? its like raw logic backed with detailed results
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: blackdust]
#23438793 - 07/13/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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blackdust

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23438805 - 07/13/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: blackdust]
#23438809 - 07/13/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is she even legal? Jeez dude.
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Juiceh
Dabbing All Day



Registered: 09/25/12
Posts: 3,208
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23438835 - 07/13/16 07:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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LoL BD this ain't AAW...
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blackdust

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23438882 - 07/13/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Is she even legal? Jeez dude.
fuck post a nice pair of tits that i found on google images and you got bring in age
just enjoy the tits dude dont worry about where the came from

okay, okay back to your regular tv shroomery programing brought to you by Trojan Condoms white nerdy kids who live in moms basement....
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: blackdust]
#23438897 - 07/13/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackdust said: okay, okay back to your regular tv shroomery programing brought to you by Trojan Condoms white nerdy kids who live in moms basement.... 
Amen
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have an issue with my lids [Re: Inocuole]
#23441053 - 07/14/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Is she even legal? Jeez dude.
I was wondering the same. Can't say I didn't enjoy the tits though, so BD.
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