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Invisiblesensiblesimon
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Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin?
    #23400410 - 07/01/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think it'd be interesting/odd if all - or even most - psilocybin containing mushrooms were edible. I would have assumed that there are actually many poisonous mushrooms that do contain psilocybin... but my Googling hasn't turned up much. I read that Galerina steglichii contains psilocybin, but it's toxicity is listed as assumed, being a Galerina and all, so chances are.


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OfflinePainkiller
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: sensiblesimon]
    #23400445 - 07/01/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Psilocybin and psilocin are so low in toxicity that they can be called non-toxic.

All psilocybin mushrooms I know of don't also contain poisons. And if there were any psilocybin mushrooms that also poisons I'd know about them...


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: Painkiller]
    #23400482 - 07/01/16 09:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think he was asking whether any known mushrooms contain both Psilocin and a highly toxic alkaloid. There are very toxic compounds based on the tryptamine backbones. A lot of Tryptamines are  are destroyed in the gut by MAO as well, so toxic doesn't necessarily mean dangerous.


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Invisibledoctorghosty
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: koods]
    #23400549 - 07/01/16 09:53 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Pretty sure some of the active members of Inocybe also contain muscimol


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Invisiblebakerb287
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: doctorghosty]
    #23400653 - 07/01/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Muscimol isn't really toxic though. I've "tripped"(more like being drunk) on 10 grams of aminitas muscarias before and besides feeling a liitle nauseous i was fine.


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: doctorghosty]
    #23400823 - 07/01/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

doctorghosty said:
Pretty sure some of the active members of Inocybe also contain muscimol



You mean muscarine. I guess muscimol would only have been a nice addition to the psilocybin high :wink:

But no, the Inocybe with psilocybin is fortunately lacking the genes to make muscarine. :smile:

Quote:

Psilocybin, a tryptamine alkaloid that acts on serotonin 5-HT2A/C receptor sites and induces hallucinations [23], was first demonstrated in Inocybe in the 1980s [3], [24], [25]. Several related psychotropic toxins–norbaeocystin, baeocystin and psilocin–tend to co-occur with psilocybin. A fifth, aeruginascin, an indole alkaloid and trimethylammonium analogue of psilocybin, was recently discovered in the European species I. aeruginascens [26]. This species has also been shown to lack muscarine [27]. Overall, six species of Inocybe, five of which correspond to section Lactiferae, produce psilocybin and have been shown to lack muscarine (I. coelestium, I. corydalina, I. erinaceomorpha, I. haemacta, and I. tricolor). However, the classification of I. aeruginascens within subgenus Inocybe is not known. Species of section Cervicolores (viz, I. calamistrata and allies) lack muscarine as well but do not produce psilocybin or other hallucinogenic compounds [3].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0064646




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Invisiblesensiblesimon
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #23403018 - 07/02/16 03:27 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the insights so far... from what I gather the answer is no: poisonous mushrooms rarely - or never - contain psilocybin.

Now I'm no biologist/mycologist/ist person, but does that mean that psilocybin containing mushrooms selected, through evolution, to produce this compound in order to be more attractive to those eating them? Perhaps because earlier primates or other animals would pick the mushrooms, thereby helping to spread their spores? And as such, the presence of psilocybin is less chemical happenstance and more a co-evolutionary thing? I remember Terence McKenna saying that our primate ancestors would have benefitted from the increased visual acuity offered by small doses of psilocybin.

Let me know your thoughts. I'm just stumbling through some wishy-washy thoughts of my own, perhaps someone has more to add.


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: sensiblesimon]
    #23403145 - 07/02/16 05:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

does that mean that psilocybin containing mushrooms selected, through evolution, to produce this compound in order to be more attractive to those eating them?




We have no scientific evidence yet of that being the case. Yes, some mammals eat psychedelic mushrooms, but it's not (at least not observed) wide spread among individuals or species.

Another theory is that it repels animals from eating it, just like the other poisonous mushrooms. I suppose this could work very good for smaller mammals. Eating more than one/a few mushrooms leads to being unable to eat for several hours. And becoming "paralyzed" by a drug for several hours with reduced ability to flee from predators or avoiding other dangers is not a good thing, so I think animals would stay away from eating it. From an evolutionary point it would also been less favorable.

It might however have benefits other than what McKenna proposed (brain/thought evolution) from the acute effects, making the animals come back for small bites. Researchers are just in the beginning of finding out what micro dosing has to offer regarding stimulation/focusing or physical effects. If this would have an effect of evolution of psilocybin in the mushrooms is another question...


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InvisiblePsychedelic Pupil
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: sensiblesimon]
    #23403164 - 07/02/16 05:47 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

It's an interesting idea. My girlfriend is a social psychologist but also dabbles in evolutionary psychology and has asked me the same thing. What's the evolutionary purpose of psilocybin mushrooms. Not necessarily for humans but for the mushrooms. I can't say that I know but I'm interested to hear if anyone has any ideas.


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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: Psychedelic Pupil]
    #23403196 - 07/02/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Be inspired.



Edited by Signeg (07/02/16 06:20 AM)


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InvisibleMidnightCity
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: Signeg]
    #23403829 - 07/02/16 11:27 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nope, none known to science so far.

A possible candidate would be Galerina steglichii.

I think the good doctor was on to something as well suggesting Inocybe. We could very well have rare or undiscovered species within either genus that do contain both a lethal poison and psilocybin/psilocin. Purely speculative though and doesn't seem logical at first thought.


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Invisiblesensiblesimon
Simon

Registered: 05/19/16
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: MidnightCity]
    #23405783 - 07/03/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

kanarkkorven: Psilocybin as a chemical defence does seem just as plausible, in that it may impair an animal's flight or fight responses, or cause temporary sickness and discomfort. And maybe that chemical defence in and of itself is adequate enough to not require the presence of additional toxins? Perhaps additional toxins would be inefficient to produce? However, I would think that causing death would be a better strategy for a mushroom... And, from my brief Googling, psilocybin doesn't seem to be toxic enough to cause death in even small animals. After reading this article about animals having a natural proclivity to ingesting mind-altering plants, I think I'm swayed more towards the theory of psilocybin as an attractant.

Signeg: That vid was neat but didn't really answer my questions... but I looked up Paul Stamets, and he's awesome! I watched another YouTube vid of a lecture he gave, and some of his ideas did relate to my wonderings. Pretty out there, but he theorises that mushrooms, in their neural-like networks, possess a certain intelligence - perhaps even sentience. And through their intelligence, these mushrooms - which are ubiquitous in the detritus of our man-made environments - have graced us with psilocybin, as a way to "awaken" us, and may help us redress the damage we've brought upon the environment. Anyhow, that's a massive intuitive leap to make, and I'm not about to subscribe to it in full. Although it's an incredibly intriguing and beautiful theory.

Anyhow, like I said before, I'm just an armchair biologist at best... If anyone has other insights I'd love to hear them!


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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: sensiblesimon]
    #23406080 - 07/03/16 04:55 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah i was posting more replying to Knarkkorven and Psychedelic pupils ideas, but i deleted my post, my bad. But completely agree with Stamets with that theory. Not just to awaken but to help us remember our purpose in nature. So that we can continue to evolve with consciousness(rather than ignorance). By helping us see what's wrong with us on the personal and universal levels. But on the intuitive level theres not many, that can communicate with the mushrooms and understand their messages. Might take some fine tuning and many years of experience before many people start to actually understand those messages though.  We're not all psychic and most people can only speak english and that's all they know. I think Paul seems to know and understand a lot about these mushrooms, more than most of us probably ever will. That's got to be the best inspirational video i've ever come across. Hope you enjoyed it anyway sorry for off topic posting.:peace:


Edited by Signeg (07/03/16 04:56 AM)


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OfflineKMt
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: Signeg]
    #23407455 - 07/03/16 02:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I doubt there would be any mushrooms that shares a poison with a psilocybin-containing mushroom. I was watching a video of Oaxacans making tea and he was saying that the lightning, plants, minerals and soil all combine to make these mushrooms what they are, he put emphasis on the lightning though. I guess it would be a good place to start to see the interaction of physics and chemistry .


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Invisibledoctorghosty
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: KMt]
    #23407518 - 07/03/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: doctorghosty] * 1
    #23407549 - 07/03/16 03:40 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

doctorghosty said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inocybe_corydalina_var._corydalina






Fixed to remove the suggestion that it may be toxic.


None of the psilocybin mushrooms are toxic, except for maybe Mycenas - and no one really knows if any of those actually have psilocybin.


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Invisibledoctorghosty
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #23407593 - 07/03/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Good to know, thanks AR


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: doctorghosty]
    #23407680 - 07/03/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Did you miss reading the reference i quoted? :wink:


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Invisibledoctorghosty
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Re: Just curious: Are there poisonous mushrooms that contain psilocybin? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #23407753 - 07/03/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Whoops, apparently so



Sorry KK, no disrespect intended, just skimmed


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