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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Clone test [Re: spacechildo]
    #23498760 - 08/01/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, I never stopped growing. I'm not a sports fan, btw lol


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Clone test [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23498845 - 08/01/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I've actually been turned off of mush cult by some members on here, back in the day.




Okay, just this that threw me off. Far off topic anyway :lol:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Clone test [Re: spacechildo]
    #23499147 - 08/01/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So, how many more generations before you're going to start spreading prints around, Pasty?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Offlinebubbs
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Re: Clone test [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23499161 - 08/01/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
So, how many more generations before you're going to start spreading prints around, Pasty?



:whathesaid: I would be very interested as well. Really admire the strain you have going.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: bubbs]
    #23499185 - 08/01/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bubbs said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
So, how many more generations before you're going to start spreading prints around, Pasty?



:whathesaid: I would be very interested as well. Really admire the strain you have going.




Thinking another 2-3 generations. Of course it's all gonna be dependent on how well the next few go. When I see it destabilize I need to back up and take more care moving forward. My goal is by the end of the year to start filtering back out.

I still need to decided which direction to move right now. Going to get spores to agar this week while I continue to test. Clone A on coir was certainly extremely potent, 22 fresh grams had me staggering and nearly falling down.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23499197 - 08/01/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ok then, next question: When are you going to start fixing Penis Envy? I want to work on crossing it, and restabilizing it, but I don't know exactly how to go about it.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23499231 - 08/01/16 06:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Ok then, next question: When are you going to start fixing Penis Envy? I want to work on crossing it, and restabilizing it, but I don't know exactly how to go about it.




Crossing PE is not going to result in PE but a different lineage. MudaFuka has done some great work on his PE/KSSS cross. If he doesn't do anything more with it, either myself or one of the other people he gave the F2 genetics to will work with it I'm sure.

To restabilize a pure PE lineage is going to mean either back crossing with older spores from before the lineage was destabilized or simply growing those older spores out and starting the lineage again. Sporeworks PE does seem quite different from THE PE so perhaps crossing those together might restore the missing heterozygosity.


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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23499399 - 08/01/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That's very interesting. How does destabilization happen?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Clone test [Re: herrenvolk]
    #23499401 - 08/01/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Workman said:
Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium.  Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.

Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity.  This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other.  Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions.  For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms.  If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.

Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes.  Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each.  Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.

Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later.  In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.  There is a net loss of heterozygosity.  Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.

So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.

Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection.  In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.

100% wild print
50% 1st generation from wild print
25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print
12.5% 3rd generation.....
6.25% 4th generation.....
3.12% 5th generation.....
1.56% 6th generation.....
0.78% 7th generation.....

You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation.  This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from.  Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).

In summary:

Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.

New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.

Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever.  Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding.  Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.

Does that help?

pastywhyte
Keep in mind that for of the domestic varieties available, they have been through dozens if not hundreds of generations. By this point the amount of remaining heterozygosity is minimal. While that does leave a huge amount of variation in potential phenotype, you probably won't see massive differences like you would with wild or crossed genetics.

When we grow from prints to fruit and print that gen and take it to fruits again we are essentially inbreeding. So once stability is achieved it's a good idea to avoid excessive selfing as eventually the genetics will destabilize. PE and PF classic are both starting to show signs of this.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: herrenvolk]
    #23499427 - 08/01/16 06:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

herrenvolk said:
That's very interesting. How does destabilization happen?




Basically the genetics sampled in a given colony are not displaying the desired traits. That increases the likelihood that those undesirable traits will surface in the next generation. You must ensure that desired traits are expressed in any grow/fruit whose spores will be used to move the lineage a generation. Otherwise you risk the traits being bred out.

Most classic varieties have been stabilized from wilds either at random or with spore production as the main trait that was looked for. Hence why a cube is a cube. They were stabilized as a crap shoot and so that's what they deliver.


@Trusted Cultivator, while you are correct that the amount of true heterozygosity is diminished as both doners were fairly stable (the AA+ was very stable) I am still fighting against the non desired tendencies that were well established, like purple spores or normally pigmented fruits. I never took pics but my previous 5th generation was so dissapointing. Out of 5 grows only 1 put up a Lucy fruit on the second flush and it had purple spores.

PE6 should serve to remind us what happens when stabilization is not done with care.

Hybrid vigor does restore a lot of variation to a lineage which means that 6 or 7 gen should be a perfect sweet spot with loads of room for future selfing.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23499460 - 08/01/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

legend status. your TC tag is going to go super saiyan


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23499465 - 08/01/16 07:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Not yet. I still got irons in the myco fire gonna be fucking killer. . . :rockon:


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Invisiblemupetmower
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23501173 - 08/02/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

that is some golden info right there. thanks Bodhi and Pasty.


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OfflineEasyMac
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Re: Clone test [Re: mupetmower]
    #23506744 - 08/03/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

This whole thread has been such a great and informative read. Keep up the great work  :psychsplit:


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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23507251 - 08/03/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Ok then, next question: When are you going to start fixing Penis Envy? I want to work on crossing it, and restabilizing it, but I don't know exactly how to go about it.




Crossing PE is not going to result in PE but a different lineage. MudaFuka has done some great work on his PE/KSSS cross. If he doesn't do anything more with it, either myself or one of the other people he gave the F2 genetics to will work with it I'm sure.

To restabilize a pure PE lineage is going to mean either back crossing with older spores from before the lineage was destabilized or simply growing those older spores out and starting the lineage again. Sporeworks PE does seem quite different from THE PE so perhaps crossing those together might restore the missing heterozygosity.




It seems like restoring PE wouldn't be so hard then. Even if you didn't back cross and just found an old print and went clone>spore>clone>spore a few times, correct? I mean just yesterday I found a 4 year old PE print I had. I bet there's people with some really old ones that could be revived. Throw the spores in a syringe and let it sit for a few weeks and get to work, yeah? Not to mention there are people who have PE genetics that never blob out on them. Those could be stabilized as well it seems. So why hasn't it really been done and spread to the masses? I assume there would be a reason.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: d0urd3n]
    #23507269 - 08/03/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Problem is that it was already having issues 5-7 years ago. Spores older than 6 years often are really tough to germinate.


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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23507442 - 08/03/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Still I mean couldn't it still be pretty easily stabilized with a decent non blobbing culture. It seems like the main issue is just that blobbing genetics keep spreading hands, not that all the cultures are tainted by blobbing genes. Similar to like how people kept trading Rust Spore prints that weren't actually rusty, and then all the suddenly RS became not as common.

It doesn't seem like good PE lineages are lost, just less common on here. But from what I have seen some users have very good PE genetics and we just need to spread those and toss this shitty genetics.

Am I on the right track here at all?


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Clone test [Re: d0urd3n]
    #23507473 - 08/03/16 09:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No. There is so much heterozygosity lost that you cannot breed the good traits back in. Genetic damage that has occurred continues to the next gen and gets worse each time.

Remember that we are essentially inbreeding here.  Without fresh genetics being introduced those lost traits cannot be bred back in, each time you go back to spores you lose more.


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Invisibledankington
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23507502 - 08/03/16 09:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

KSSS Envy is one of our only hopes.
That, or someone stumbling upon a fruit with similar traits in another variety, which they then stabilize. I may or may not have come across fruits of creeper that had similar traits. I may or may not be chasing that white whale.


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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: Clone test [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23507517 - 08/03/16 09:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I understand you can't take a shitty culture and make it good again when it's been taken back to spores like 5-7+ times, but there's people who have cultures that are that old that have the heterozygosity bred out, but good traits are what's left.

So I'm not really understand this who "RIP Penis Envy, you were great while you lasted" when there are people with great cultures that never blob. So to correct what I said previously, I guess you don't need to even stabilize it. Just people need to stop spreading cultures that have a tendency to blob out, and those with great cultures that produce amazing big fruits that never blob under any conditions, need to spread them. So rather purge out the garbage cultures floating around so the issue doesn't become worse, and everyone has the traits of the PE from old.

Hopefully you can decypher that and tell me if it makes even halfway a bit of sense. Just trying to understand the situation, because to me (disclaimer, never grown it yet. Just put spores to agar last night) it doesn't seem like a massive issue and that the good PE is lost. It's just in the minority, and not spread as prolifically as it could be. And that blobbing cultures have been spread too often.


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