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Offlinematt1208
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24851007 - 12/17/17 01:14 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

An update on the plant since its heavy pruning at the start of the growing season



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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24851567 - 12/17/17 11:32 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
IMO don't use ascorbic acid, I think it could scavenge oxygen... better a weak otherwise unremarkable acid.
I use citric acid, the only think that might be remarkable about that it may solubilize a lot of cationic compounds like iron - make it more available but also potentially flush it...
don't know to what extent, maybe i should switch too. :smile:

Acetic acid (vinegar / cleaning vinegar diluted) might actually be better than both though it's not one of the weakest.




I used to use vinegar, but I am using ascorbic acid, because it eliminates the chloramine in the water. I wonder if that neutralizes the acidity in the process?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24851576 - 12/17/17 11:37 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)



This is that plant today. The leaves are rapidly yellowing/whitening. Anyone have any tips?

One other observation is that the stem of this plant has just started browning up a bit. It appears to be getting it's 1st layer of bark.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/17/17 11:45 AM)


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24851631 - 12/17/17 12:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Ascorbic acic is actually a bit stronger an acid than acetic acid, but it oxidizes quickly. The conjugates are actually not that much different in acidity but ascorbic acid is unstable / reactive and can degrade further into breakdown products and I have some doubts that it is reliable for these reasons but hey I guess it should be OK - just check your soil pH is what i recommend.

As for chloramine, unless I am mistaken there are equilibrium reactions from chloramine to hypochlorite (bleach / 'chlorine' but not really) and hypochlorite and ascorbic acid create the oxidation product dehydroascorbic acid and ammonium chloride.

Some of the chemical components react with oxygen in the air though. And the chloramine present in water should be rather small I think.

Maybe in terms of unpredictable reactivity or involvement in biological processes / balances using HCl may be one of the best of all, you just need to make a dilute stock solution to put drops in...


Edited by Solipsis (12/17/17 12:04 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24852333 - 12/17/17 06:22 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Ascorbic acic is actually a bit stronger an acid than acetic acid, but it oxidizes quickly. The conjugates are actually not that much different in acidity but ascorbic acid is unstable / reactive and can degrade further into breakdown products and I have some doubts that it is reliable for these reasons but hey I guess it should be OK - just check your soil pH is what i recommend.

As for chloramine, unless I am mistaken there are equilibrium reactions from chloramine to hypochlorite (bleach / 'chlorine' but not really) and hypochlorite and ascorbic acid create the oxidation product dehydroascorbic acid and ammonium chloride.

Some of the chemical components react with oxygen in the air though. And the chloramine present in water should be rather small I think.

Maybe in terms of unpredictable reactivity or involvement in biological processes / balances using HCl may be one of the best of all, you just need to make a dilute stock solution to put drops in...




I don't know where to get HCl. I have pH down, which I think has sulfuric acid in it. Novos are chlorophobes, so I am trying to get rid of chloramine and chlorine in my tap water. If there is a better way to accomplish that than using ascorbic acid, I am all ears. I may start using distilled water to see if it makes a difference.

Just so you are aware, I do not have a pH meter, and can't afford to buy an effective one.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleellomello
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24852380 - 12/17/17 06:39 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

iv been considering adding a spoonful of vinegar to the water bucket:
https://phys.org/news/2017-06-vinegar-cheap-simple-drought.html


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24852482 - 12/17/17 07:22 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Fascinating.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24852670 - 12/17/17 08:26 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

So, here is what I did. My novos were due for a watering, so I went out and purchased a few gallons of distilled water. That takes care of the chloramine issue. I added a small amount (1-2 tsp) of 5% vinegar to each gallons. Enough to make it slightly sour. Then I also added a large dose of soluble kelp extract, to give a nice boost of essential minerals to the soil.

Let's see what happens. Most of the large leaves on this plant will soon fall off, which is fine, as long as it survives.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24853475 - 12/18/17 10:42 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Wouldn't they extract water better retained by the roots? If so, not sure if that is a good thing for the plant! Guess it depends on how long you allow the soil to dry exactly and how dry.

But very good point yes, still in general i'd like them for my other plants.

I also have no idea if endomycorrhizal species tend to do alright in general in pots indoors... as a rule, small environments (think aquarium) are harder to stabilize...

If they are prolific in your pots though cocalero that sounds encouraging on all fronts. did you buy them?




You always want endomycorrhizae in your plants, particularly if they are prone to things like damping off. In nature, I am sure coca always forms a bond with mycorrhizae. Mycorrhizae makes plants more drought hardy, it fends off pathogens, and creates a food source for plants. There isn't any downside that I know of.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24853584 - 12/18/17 11:56 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

What is the potential downside of activating a plant's 'drought mode' epigenetically if it is not necessary or actually inappropriate would be my question. This (albeit very fascinating) use of acetic acid has very little to do with why we are adding an acid to regulate the pH for our Erythros.
I mean... you don't always run Windows in safe mode do you? Not saying acetic acid is bad but we shouldn't jump to conclusions and it might be good for one purpose but not for another. I don't think you want to switch on the drought pathways under normal conditions... the plant may be overwhelmed and confused when receiving normal amounts of water and I also just don't see the point of protecting against drought if there is none.

This is the kind of thing I meant earlier when I said "involvement in biological processes", acetic acid is known to be relevant in both plants and animals. Citric acid too by the way.
Something like HCl is not really reactive in any way like that, and not organic.

Ascorbic acid sounds like a great way to get rid of the chloramine :smile: Am not sure though how much you'd need to add, perhaps very little so you could separate those uses of acids. If it were only hypochlorite just letting it stand for 24 hours would be enough.

The US EPA limits chloramine to 4 ppm. You need 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part chloramine, so 10 ppm. For a gallon of water you would need to add 372 mg of ascorbic acid according to my calculations.
I would just let that stand for quite some time and check what the pH settles on. You can do a test with some tap water that way and just let it sit for up to a week even (hey why not) and measure to be certain. If necessary, then adjust carefully with [perhaps a stock solution of] an acid and a base like bicarb.
Don't get any pH meter, but use litmus papers or liquid testers both of which are available in aquarium shops for example or cheaply on eBay. If you don't use it for anything else, you might benefit from testers that check in the vicinity of pH 7 and do so more accurately than the ones testing the full 1-14 scale.

HCl is muriatic acid and should be available in hardware stores. Doesn't your walmart have "anything and everything" ;p?

The mycorrhizae sound great but I'm not sure to just try and dig them up somewhere... there are so many species and it's pointless if they aren't the right type and/or not viable in your soil. Similarly I read that you should be careful with using pondwater... it's what I wanted to do too before I read that you run the risk of bringing in nasty bacteria and fungi if those happen to be prolific in that pond.
In mycorrhizal products like the granules you can buy I think there are often like 7 or so species... I wonder if one reason for that is so that there always one present viable in the pH / type of soil you have. :smile:

P.S.

on an unrelated note: turns out that I somehow sowed one of my seeds too deep and it clearly had to dig its way up and not stem but developed leaves popped up. I freed it up a little and will probably try to repot this one earlier than the rest, but it seems to be going for it regardless xD I'm impressed!


Edited by Solipsis (12/18/17 01:54 PM)


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24854106 - 12/18/17 04:14 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Nice with so much activity in this thread...

Yellowing and dropping of the leaves are the only problem i seem to have, otherwize my cocas seem do really fine now.
My guess is they are lacking something and have read about that cocas need iron.
Somewhere i also have read about sulfur if i remembered correctly.
I think one can buy some additves containing iron but sulfur may be harder.
Anyone know why the cocas get yellowing and drops leaves, can it be lack of iron or sulfur?

Today i bought a PH test set at the aqvarium/reptile section at a store.
I tested my tapwater and it seems to be about 8 but the colors at the reference card is very similar around the 7-8 area.
So it seem i have watered with about PH 6.5 to 7 when i thought i lowered to 5.5.
I have bought some 5% vinegar also, i will use it to PH down to 5.5 next time.
This is the PH kit and reference card:

Its a nice kit but colors for 7.5 seem to be darker than the 8.0 so its not easy to tell around PH 7.5 to 8.0 area.

Cocalero, you say your cocas grow around 5 to 10% humidity sometimes.
Do they develop berries when humidity is that low?

I really hope i can figure out why the leaves are wellowing and falls off.
Maybee add some celated iron thingy.

Someone said that they put an aquarium airpump hose in waterbucket and let run overnight, it somehow should remove something from the tapwater, maybee it was chlorine.
Anyone heard something like this?

/Mateo


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Re: Coca growers *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
    #24855141 - 12/19/17 02:28 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by JayWise

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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Coca growers [Re: JayWise]
    #24855618 - 12/19/17 10:48 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I get that, am interested in mycorrhizae for a reason :wink:  so it's not fear of microbes at all.
The point is though: how do you actually know it is balanced like you say, I think I would know some indications but am far from an expert so just acknowledging that. Besides, the pond close to me is relatively new and it's not exactly 'wild' either. I reconsidered getting my water there and am confident it's the wise move not to. I need to get my rainwater elsewhere which is inconvenient, but it seems to be good. That rainwater is alive too but hardly comparable.

Nobody said anything about sterile, I wasn't talking about bacteria and fungi being nasty, but about particular harmful ones in environments that are very possibly neither wild enough nor balanced enough.

Also, realize that I am growing a lot of species of plants all indoors with limited space etc and generally I can't afford issues because nature doesn't keep factors like bacteria and fungi in check for me.

Mateo: yes, leading bubbles through will both give a lot of flow and area of interaction which speeds up evaporation / exchange of gases including chlorine that gets released and also that air/oxygen can speed up degradation reactions.
Again, chlorine (i.e. hypochlorite) will be removed faster that way but chloramine apparently not.

Lack of iron is supposed to be a potential problem for mature coca plants I think, you are talking about mature plants? Unfortunately chlorosis and dropping leaves can indicate a pretty big number of issues generally.
What do you use as fertilizer again? I guess iron and sulfur are possible and also magnesium?

Personally I'd like to add some compost, rich in a lot of nutrients and the microbes should also be beneficial I think. Is that a decent plan?

Only one of my plants really has wilted and dropped leaves, the worst of the 3 older ones (still quite small plants mind you). It still needs to be repotted like the other ones but I am waiting on the other 2 to see if it really gives the positive effect I am looking for.

I might need to add extra lighting and places for plants if my novo's (especially the larger generation of youngest ones) do alright.
None of my current spots seem to be great. CFL does very well for the initial seedlings but I am not sure how to keep them going after that. I really don't want these young ones to stall too.


Edited by Solipsis (12/19/17 10:57 AM)


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Re: Coca growers *DELETED* [Re: Solipsis]
    #24855900 - 12/19/17 01:40 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: JayWise]
    #24856195 - 12/19/17 04:26 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Regarding yellowing/whitening resulting in leaves drop.
The plants are some years old so they probably count as mature.
Before i didnt add any fertilerzers, just tapwater.
Now i have been starting adding 1/2 dose liquid fertilizer 7-3-6 with every watering.
It has some iron and magnesium i think but no sulphur in it.
Probably very low amounts of iron.
I have also begun lower the PH of the tapwater i use.

I didnt have the problem with yellowing and few leaves dropping before so i guess the nutrients in the soil have been used up and it needs some added.
Since i recently started adding the fertilizer and lower PH i wait to see the results as they probably take a few weeks to show.
The Novos and the Coca are now showing great response to the move into a growtent, lights (300W LED & CFL 60-100W something) and maybee ferts and PH.
I set the lights 13h ON, 11 OFF.
I installed a humidifier in the tent also.
I see new growth everywhere and i see flowers starting developing on both Novos and Coca.
The Coca still have yellowing/leaf drop but it getting better i think, time will tell.
I really hope the flowers develop OK and i get berries, it would be a dream come true. I will hand pollinate.

I think small seedlings and young coca plants are a different.
They are very sensitive when young and there are so much more that can be wrong at this stage.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24856757 - 12/19/17 10:42 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
What is the potential downside of activating a plant's 'drought mode' epigenetically if it is not necessary or actually inappropriate would be my question. This (albeit very fascinating) use of acetic acid has very little to do with why we are adding an acid to regulate the pH for our Erythros.
I mean... you don't always run Windows in safe mode do you? Not saying acetic acid is bad but we shouldn't jump to conclusions and it might be good for one purpose but not for another. I don't think you want to switch on the drought pathways under normal conditions... the plant may be overwhelmed and confused when receiving normal amounts of water and I also just don't see the point of protecting against drought if there is none.

This is the kind of thing I meant earlier when I said "involvement in biological processes", acetic acid is known to be relevant in both plants and animals. Citric acid too by the way.
Something like HCl is not really reactive in any way like that, and not organic.

Ascorbic acid sounds like a great way to get rid of the chloramine :smile: Am not sure though how much you'd need to add, perhaps very little so you could separate those uses of acids. If it were only hypochlorite just letting it stand for 24 hours would be enough.

The US EPA limits chloramine to 4 ppm. You need 2.5 parts ascorbic acid per part chloramine, so 10 ppm. For a gallon of water you would need to add 372 mg of ascorbic acid according to my calculations.
I would just let that stand for quite some time and check what the pH settles on. You can do a test with some tap water that way and just let it sit for up to a week even (hey why not) and measure to be certain. If necessary, then adjust carefully with [perhaps a stock solution of] an acid and a base like bicarb.
Don't get any pH meter, but use litmus papers or liquid testers both of which are available in aquarium shops for example or cheaply on eBay. If you don't use it for anything else, you might benefit from testers that check in the vicinity of pH 7 and do so more accurately than the ones testing the full 1-14 scale.

HCl is muriatic acid and should be available in hardware stores. Doesn't your walmart have "anything and everything" ;p?

The mycorrhizae sound great but I'm not sure to just try and dig them up somewhere... there are so many species and it's pointless if they aren't the right type and/or not viable in your soil. Similarly I read that you should be careful with using pondwater... it's what I wanted to do too before I read that you run the risk of bringing in nasty bacteria and fungi if those happen to be prolific in that pond.
In mycorrhizal products like the granules you can buy I think there are often like 7 or so species... I wonder if one reason for that is so that there always one present viable in the pH / type of soil you have. :smile:

P.S.

on an unrelated note: turns out that I somehow sowed one of my seeds too deep and it clearly had to dig its way up and not stem but developed leaves popped up. I freed it up a little and will probably try to repot this one earlier than the rest, but it seems to be going for it regardless xD I'm impressed!




If you want mycorrhizae, get some compost... Don't sterilize it.. Voila. The number of microorganism species in even a tsp of soil is staggering. You can also buy mycorrhizae inoculant from some websites, but it's hard to find it in quantities smaller than a farmer might use... At least when I last tried. I know a site where you can get inoculant, in small quantities, and it comes with a wide array of species.

I was using 1000mg vitamin c tablets, so I guess I may have been overdoing it.

From what I read on Dbotany's email correspondence letters, novo seedlings prefer a warm light spectrum when they are in the seedling stage.. I think there may be something to that, so I am going to add low kalvin lighting.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24862278 - 12/22/17 03:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone here experienced with tissue cloning?
Since coca is hard to myltiply by ordinary cuttings maybee this is a way to go.
And since mushroom hobbies have similarities to TC we can try it.
I investigate a little what hormones is needed for a simple test.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24863053 - 12/22/17 11:54 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Have you had any success in finding ideal mixes/ratios of hormones and nutrients for micropropagation?
I would be very interested in any information you find on the subject. :strokebeard:


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #24863074 - 12/23/17 12:24 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

At what point do you guys decide to transplant? I think mine are getting close, but i figured i would get opinions.

I think they're close to 8 months now. Mostly asking because they seem to be getting big but im still not seeing any roots pop out yet. Most of them are about twice the size of my pots or more.

Quart jar is there for size comparison. What do you guys think?



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Re: Coca growers [Re: bubbaloo]
    #24865635 - 12/24/17 09:56 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

My largest coca plant died a month or so back i was sick in bed for a week and forgot to water it. All the leaves dropped off branches dried up and snapped easily. I had given up on it and started using it as a stand for my ephedra to rest on. The whole tim i still kept watering it as something similar but not as severe happened once before, in the early pages of this thread.
Checked on it today and.....

Green lovely ness.
This plant is one tough SOB back from the dead twice.


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alchino23 6,716 27 07/24/07 11:47 AM
by alchino23

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