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Offlineguacamolerabbit
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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24396376 - 06/11/17 11:11 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

So, I've been researching a variety of soil attempts for E.coca and E.novo and here I present to you the list I have made with a few considerations I have put from my own opinions and other users opinions and I would like to get your opinions on which of the soils would fit better for each variety.

0 - the soils E. Coca is found in range from not immediately available increased iron volcanic substrates or fertile alluvial (sedimentary) soils to nutrient deficient eroded clays which are essentially dust.
Other considerations are, composted pine grits are a good way to make the soil a little more acid, clay (clay based soils) should be avoided because it tends to bring the substrates ph to alkaline (needs verification), perlite is a good addition because it keeps the soil airy and retains moisture.

1 -  Two parts of a standard commercial potting mix, one to two parts topsoil, and one part perlite. Mix some red volcanic rock as fertile, mineral rich soil that is well draining. It should not be to heavy so be careful with topsoil. Add more volcanic rock and/or perlite if the mixture is too dense (this is the recommended soil composure and many of the soils are based upon this).

2 - 25% of river or building sand (ph ≈ 7), thick and clean; 25% of fine perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% steril marl/marlstone (ph ≈ 8.1); 25% sphagnum peat moss (ph 3.5-4.6).

3 - 25% coarse clean sand (ph ≈ 7); 25% perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% sterilized loam (ph 5-7); 25% milled peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable). If it seems too light, increase loam and peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable). Some sterilized organic compost (no set ph), screened may also be added for nutrition.

4 - 35% potting soil (ph ≈ 7-8); 15% perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% cured manure (no set ph); 25% charcoal (no set ph) (from the fire pit).

5 - 10% silt (ph ≈ 5-7); 20% humus/loam (ph 5-7) ("used up" compost, full of humates and fulvates); 20% fresh compost (no set ph); 25% iron clay based soil (no set ph) (like from most yards or pine forests); 25% composted wood bits or sand/grit (ph ≈ 7-8) (grit which prevents the ph from decreasing drastically) This soil will feed okay for 6 weeks but after that, water fertilizer should be fed to the plant. Better used renewed from the top or repotted.

6 - Soil with worm casts (ph 6.8) (5-20% max of the soil mix composition and it lasts for 1-2 years, good at holding moisture, increasing soil structure and making soil fertile) (not advised since it releases toxic gases that damage the growth of the plants, unless they’re decomposed) or organic matter (no set ph) (not advised since it’s a medium rich in calcium and the plants do not like basic soils rich in calcium), a little bit each of black rock phosphate (phosphorite) (no set ph), greensand (ph 6.2-8.5) (removes iron and manganese? needs verification), fossilized seabird guano (no set ph) and dry humate (no set ph). The mix is lightened up with peat moss (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable) and perlite. The plants are given rain water with a little clay and fulvic acid (no set ph) and mild organic hydro fertilizers (no set ph). The (E. Novo) plants were experiencing deficiencies, so they were transplanted into pro-mix, they did better, but still had problems.

7 – 20% coco coir (ph 6-6.7); 20% red akadama (ph 6.5-7.2) (clay available at bonsai); 20% kiriu/kiryu (ph 6.5-6.8) (river soil from bonsai supply); 20% kanuma (ph 4.5-5) (low ph clay); 10% perlite (ph ≈ 7). Order all in the small size for better root growth. The red akadama has many elements and so does the kanuma. all of the materials are volcanic type clay and is imported from japan and used in the bonsai industry. Very closely resembles the iron and low ph soil needed.

8 - 40% rich potting compost (ph ≈ 7-8); 40% peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable) substitute (a slightly acid, lime-free compost); 20% perlite (ph ≈ 7).

9 - 70% coco coir (ph 6-6.7)/coco fiber preferable (ph 5.2-6.8); 30% perlite (ph ≈ 7).

or would it just be better to use a commercial orchid (acidic based soil) mix medium?


Edited by guacamolerabbit (06/11/17 11:22 AM)


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Coca growers [Re: guacamolerabbit]
    #24396444 - 06/11/17 11:32 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I use pretty much 100% coco coir with a hand full of perlite thrown in mine are Erythroxylum coca var. coca not novos.


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Edited by mrmazdarx9 (06/11/17 11:57 AM)


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Coca growers [Re: guacamolerabbit]
    #24396572 - 06/11/17 12:12 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

guacamolerabbit said:
So, I've been researching a variety of soil attempts for E.coca and E.novo and here I present to you the list I have made with a few considerations I have put from my own opinions and other users opinions and I would like to get your opinions on which of the soils would fit better for each variety.

0 - the soils E. Coca is found in range from not immediately available increased iron volcanic substrates or fertile alluvial (sedimentary) soils to nutrient deficient eroded clays which are essentially dust.
Other considerations are, composted pine grits are a good way to make the soil a little more acid, clay (clay based soils) should be avoided because it tends to bring the substrates ph to alkaline (needs verification), perlite is a good addition because it keeps the soil airy and retains moisture.

1 -  Two parts of a standard commercial potting mix, one to two parts topsoil, and one part perlite. Mix some red volcanic rock as fertile, mineral rich soil that is well draining. It should not be to heavy so be careful with topsoil. Add more volcanic rock and/or perlite if the mixture is too dense (this is the recommended soil composure and many of the soils are based upon this).

2 - 25% of river or building sand (ph ≈ 7), thick and clean; 25% of fine perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% steril marl/marlstone (ph ≈ 8.1); 25% sphagnum peat moss (ph 3.5-4.6).

3 - 25% coarse clean sand (ph ≈ 7); 25% perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% sterilized loam (ph 5-7); 25% milled peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable). If it seems too light, increase loam and peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable). Some sterilized organic compost (no set ph), screened may also be added for nutrition.

4 - 35% potting soil (ph ≈ 7-8); 15% perlite (ph ≈ 7); 25% cured manure (no set ph); 25% charcoal (no set ph) (from the fire pit).

5 - 10% silt (ph ≈ 5-7); 20% humus/loam (ph 5-7) ("used up" compost, full of humates and fulvates); 20% fresh compost (no set ph); 25% iron clay based soil (no set ph) (like from most yards or pine forests); 25% composted wood bits or sand/grit (ph ≈ 7-8) (grit which prevents the ph from decreasing drastically) This soil will feed okay for 6 weeks but after that, water fertilizer should be fed to the plant. Better used renewed from the top or repotted.

6 - Soil with worm casts (ph 6.8) (5-20% max of the soil mix composition and it lasts for 1-2 years, good at holding moisture, increasing soil structure and making soil fertile) (not advised since it releases toxic gases that damage the growth of the plants, unless they’re decomposed) or organic matter (no set ph) (not advised since it’s a medium rich in calcium and the plants do not like basic soils rich in calcium), a little bit each of black rock phosphate (phosphorite) (no set ph), greensand (ph 6.2-8.5) (removes iron and manganese? needs verification), fossilized seabird guano (no set ph) and dry humate (no set ph). The mix is lightened up with peat moss (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable) and perlite. The plants are given rain water with a little clay and fulvic acid (no set ph) and mild organic hydro fertilizers (no set ph). The (E. Novo) plants were experiencing deficiencies, so they were transplanted into pro-mix, they did better, but still had problems.

7 – 20% coco coir (ph 6-6.7); 20% red akadama (ph 6.5-7.2) (clay available at bonsai); 20% kiriu/kiryu (ph 6.5-6.8) (river soil from bonsai supply); 20% kanuma (ph 4.5-5) (low ph clay); 10% perlite (ph ≈ 7). Order all in the small size for better root growth. The red akadama has many elements and so does the kanuma. all of the materials are volcanic type clay and is imported from japan and used in the bonsai industry. Very closely resembles the iron and low ph soil needed.

8 - 40% rich potting compost (ph ≈ 7-8); 40% peat (ph 3.5-4.6) (peat is dangerous because it can form a peat bog and make the soil super acidic, it has bad non-sterile microorganisms, has no/lacks nutrients and its nonrenewable) substitute (a slightly acid, lime-free compost); 20% perlite (ph ≈ 7).

9 - 70% coco coir (ph 6-6.7)/coco fiber preferable (ph 5.2-6.8); 30% perlite (ph ≈ 7).

or would it just be better to use a commercial orchid (acidic based soil) mix medium?




Way to go scientific on it. But its way more complex than that. Well not really.

As mrmazdarx9 said, you dont need much. The top dressing is important in my opinion. Get the good stuff on the top.

My soil was coir and perlite for the start up. Then I added earth worms to the soil. Dont know if they are still there but the made that soil alive. Ever since its been all organics. I'm trying to replicate rich mountain soil. I'm not no where near altitude but the soil is pretty rich. So there is that.

On a side note I trimmed off the lower branches of my plants so they could put all energy into the upper part of the plant. Hopefully it will look better and less bushy.


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24396627 - 06/11/17 12:34 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Just been reading this http://www.angelfire.com/planet/dbotany/differences.htm not directly relating to anything were currently talking about just an interesting read. Theres a bit where the guy claims most of the growing of coca isnt at high altitude as i thought it was, how reliable it is however :shrug:


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Coca growers [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24396636 - 06/11/17 12:37 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Oh that dbotany guy knows his stuff. He has a huge coca/novo tree. Very nice. He is very nice person.


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Offlineguacamolerabbit
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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24396745 - 06/11/17 01:30 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Its a bit complex, but my post is really not very scientifically detailed (I wish there was somebody that would do that), its just a variety of soils, all these soils are soils with natural conditioners for the plants and there are others that are more neutral and requiring of fertilizer, I just don't know, which one to choose because of the ph rates, there's so many substrates that ones look too much alkaline specially with all the compost which makes the soil more alkaline, while the others seem like they won't reach the necessairy acidic ph rates required even with a lot of acidic conditiong, aswell as being more expensive and harder to get, while others are just mixed and confusing to me to understand the correlations.

I suppose I don't need much, because most experiences, have them growing in basic soils, but I can't spend much money because I have a low budget, so I gotta get it right at the first experiment.

>"My soil was coir and perlite for the start up. Then I added earth worms to the soil. Dont know if they are still there but the made that soil alive. Ever since its been all organics. I'm trying to replicate rich mountain soil. I'm not no where near altitude but the soil is pretty rich. So there is that.

On a side note I trimmed off the lower branches of my plants so they could put all energy into the upper part of the plant. Hopefully it will look better and less bushy."

I think that coco coir/fiber and perlite are good to stabilize the ph, but as you said, they lack nutrients (and also they have higher ph rates than the prefered by the plants of E.Coca), so you'd need to add some fertilizer, but I'm not really sure they are the most appropriate for these variety of plants, did you had any problems with those soils, also could you detail which other organic soils you used and detail if you had some problems? I don't think the mountain soil is as rich as the lower soils because as described (maybe somewhere else), they get more wind and are more prone to break the plants, the soil particles fall from the mountains through the rain and are spread to the planting locations (around the forests) through the river basins that move those particles to the inside of the forests, although as mentioned by somebody more experienced, these soils are natural and specific to that global location, although, they could be bettered and made more functional/perfected. so the plants grow in semi-shaded locations under the forests and thats actually where they are natural of, from the forests, not the mountains, they don't perform better in the mountains for no specific reason other than the higher amount of light they catch and the higher humidity (but one has to consider that these plants are culturally grown in semi-shaded places because direct sunlight could kill them), because plants don't really have a correlation with atmospheric pressure, and there is no more co2 in higher altitudes so...those soils are just average varietys of clay/silt soils and these absorb moisture a lot, and since the tropicals get a lot of annual rain, these soils absorb a lot of acidity and acidic nutrients (correlated to the ph), because their rain is acidic. that's why they become good for the plants and so they don't need very good soils, but I just gotta find a good stable natural soil for them. but there are multiple varietys, one thing to consider is that, there are potting and mineral soils, so I guess I could cut a few out of these, but still the variety is very big, and somebody recommended to just buy a pre-mixed soil, but I'm not sure I should do that, because they might need more air, more moisture, more drainage, they could not have the appropriate required nutrients? I don't know because I never experienced growing them, I don't know their needs so I'm asking other people to post whatever they can so I can make an assumption.

Edit: edited with the correct terms.


Edited by guacamolerabbit (06/19/17 02:04 PM)


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Coca growers [Re: guacamolerabbit]
    #24396761 - 06/11/17 01:35 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Your really over thinking it both me and ferrel have very successfully grown plants and have both told you what you need. I use straight coir with a bit of perlite as does ferrel and he added worms later on. Its not that difficult trust me your making it too complicated plant seed, grow plant.
I use the correct fertiliser that was recommended by a guy who grows them as his job in holland and sells plants and seedlings. I have my sub at ph5-6 and have now got awesome fast nice colour growth. If you go back a page or so youll see what i use.
Have you actually got berries or coca plants yet you were pming me weird ass messages that i couldnt decifer a while back asking how to get some coca plants.


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Edited by mrmazdarx9 (06/11/17 01:42 PM)


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Offlineguacamolerabbit
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Re: Coca growers [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24396798 - 06/11/17 01:45 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Nope, I'm just preparing the conditions yet.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: guacamolerabbit]
    #24396802 - 06/11/17 01:48 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

:awesomenod: then you are really over thinking it. Seriously a bag of coir and a bottle of ph down is all i ever used in the first year then i bought the orchid 9-3-6 food and started adding 2.5ml to 5litre of tap water and everything started growing like mad.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Coca growers [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24397367 - 06/11/17 04:36 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
:awesomenod: then you are really over thinking it. Seriously a bag of coir and a bottle of ph down is all i ever used in the first year...




Just coir and perlite. And then saved the rain water.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human] * 2
    #24397895 - 06/11/17 07:40 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Trimmed the lower branches. Gives it a good bush look.


And the 2


The one that was real skimpy has got really green leaves now. It seems there for a while things got too acidic. As soon as I added some dolomite, it started to grow really well. Really big leaves.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24399439 - 06/12/17 12:36 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Lol can you keep an earth worm in a small pot indoors? That's a pretty funny idea..

(Oh it's possible but not necessarily recommended - especially for young plants.. i found this enlightening: http://homeguides.sfgate.com/earthworms-potted-plants-68718.html )

My soil is over 1/4 or even over 1/3 perlite perhaps, the rest is coco coir based soil (couldn't properly find pure coir), very little sphagnum and in a few of them some bonemeal although I quite regret that. It wasn't much.

Gave it a little rainwater, still have to acidify the whole thing a bit more.

Two novo seedlings are pushing up - slightly cringy to see them wearing seedhusks like a helmet.. but can't wait to meet them!






Edited by Solipsis (06/12/17 12:48 PM)


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24399706 - 06/12/17 02:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Two novo seedlings are pushing up - slightly cringy to see them wearing seedhusks like a helmet.. but can't wait to meet them!









Dont do things in haste. I found out the hard way and killed some seedling trying to take the hull off. Woe is me. :huxleyfacepalm:


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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24399727 - 06/12/17 02:33 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Trying a new method of trying to root some cuttings.


Very hard with this variety.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24401132 - 06/13/17 01:09 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

No I know I'm not going to take the seedhusks off (though I wouldn't know when it's an exception).. :smile:
Does anyone have pics of their very young seedlings / at various stages and some comments about their health and care?

@the rooting, did you put IBA in the water?


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24401402 - 06/13/17 05:55 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I have no pictures, but I was spritzing the seed every day to soften it up then eventually I did remove it my self, but it was ready, didn't tug on the leaves at all.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Chemical Addiction]
    #24401415 - 06/13/17 06:10 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Chemical Addiction said:
I have no pictures, but I was spritzing the seed every day to soften it up then eventually I did remove it my self, but it was ready, didn't tug on the leaves at all.




I would say this is a good idea. I would wait til most of them are open, before removing the husks off of any of them. sometimes they do get stuck, and the leaves will etiolate beneath the seed. Keeping the seed husk moist should help the leaves push it off.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Solipsis]
    #24401903 - 06/13/17 09:38 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
No I know I'm not going to take the seedhusks off (though I wouldn't know when it's an exception).. :smile:
Does anyone have pics of their very young seedlings / at various stages and some comments about their health and care?

@the rooting, did you put IBA in the water?




Here is what i originally startwd with.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: ferrel_human]
    #24402451 - 06/13/17 01:23 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Trying a new method of trying to root some cuttings.


Very hard with this variety.



I tried to root the branches I cut off in April. I put them in soil and put in a humidity dome. I did see that after 6 weeks that one of them had two small roots. I sent it to a friend and threw the rest out. I'm betting that pH is a crucial parameter like it is with kratom. I watered them with pH 5 water in the beginning, but I really didn't follow up or check the pH of the runoff.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: JizzMasterZero]
    #24403296 - 06/13/17 06:40 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JizzMasterZero said:
Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Trying a new method of trying to root some cuttings.


Very hard with this variety.



I tried to root the branches I cut off in April. I put them in soil and put in a humidity dome. I did see that after 6 weeks that one of them had two small roots. I sent it to a friend and threw the rest out. I'm betting that pH is a crucial parameter like it is with kratom. I watered them with pH 5 water in the beginning, but I really didn't follow up or check the pH of the runoff.




Well thats good to know. I doubt ill have success as i have never had luck with rooting them.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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