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Offlineqman
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23410448 - 07/04/16 01:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
So a economy that's potentially tanking justifies safety nets for irresponsible behavior from large banks?  I don't think so.



It's either that or suffer a Great Depression.

The point is that businesses should never have been allowed to become too big to fail.  Wooof is correct in that they should have broken up the too big to fail banks so this never happens again.




They were breaking up naturally until the crony capitalists came in to save themselves.

Now you want them broken up after the fact, I'm afraid it might be too late for that to happen anytime soon.

The next time market speculators appear to be bringing down the economy, let them receive the misfortunes they deserve instead of rewarding them.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: qman]
    #23410529 - 07/04/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
They were breaking up naturally until the crony capitalists came in to save themselves.



Huh?  Can you please explain?

Quote:

qman said:
Now you want them broken up after the fact, I'm afraid it might be too late for that to happen anytime soon.



I wanted them broken up before the fact, but especially now after the fact.  Why is it too late for Congress to do something?

Quote:

qman said:
The next time market speculators appear to be bringing down the economy, let them receive the misfortunes they deserve instead of rewarding them.



I'm in favor of that, but not at the expense of brining down the economy for everyone else.  Many of these bankers should be in jail.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23410603 - 07/04/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The banks were breaking up naturally in the financial markets, when the bank goes into bankruptcy it's breaking up!

Everything would have worked out just fine if the process was given a chance to work, insolvency, bond defaults, and bankruptcy are all healthy parts of capitalism.

Congress is bought and paid for by the financial lobbyists, they aren't going to be pushing for breaking up their own interests.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: qman]
    #23410752 - 07/04/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think qman has a point, though I don't like seeing American people suffer for the fuck ups of bankers. That said, a significant portion of the population suffered dearly. We should have used the stimulus to bail them out, instead of bailing the banks out. It would have been a huge popularity booster for the federal government also. FDR bailed out mainstream, Bush/Obama bailed out wall street.

The problem is that the banks have such a powerful influence on the federal government (Clinton's relationship with Goldmann Sachs, for instance), that it is very difficult to break them up after the fact.

I don't pretend to be the most knowledgeable on all of this, but that is what I understand. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it a stipulation of the bailout that the banks be broken up?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23410760 - 07/04/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

By the way Falcon, you may just want to block HU like myself and Airclay have done. The forum appears to be a reasonable place once again :wink:

We have to stop fueling his stupid shit.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: qman]
    #23410866 - 07/04/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The banks were breaking up naturally in the financial markets, when the bank goes into bankruptcy it's breaking up!



I don't think you appreciate the implications that would have on the rest of the economy.  If AIG (for example) went bankrupt, the trillions it owed to other companies wouldn't get paid off, and those other companies would then also go bankrupt, which in turn would cause yet another set of companies to go bankrupt.  Sure, AIG deserved it, maybe even companies that bought derivatives from AIG deserved it.  But companies that are further removed from AIG don't deserve it.

Quote:

qman said:
Everything would have worked out just fine if the process was given a chance to work, insolvency, bond defaults, and bankruptcy are all healthy parts of capitalism.



I keep telling you, the Government tried that with Lehman Brothers, and it proved to be a miserable failure.  The companies that followed were even larger.  We've GOT to limit the size of corporations.

Quote:

qman said:
Congress is bought and paid for by the financial lobbyists, they aren't going to be pushing for breaking up their own interests.



That's fairly true today, but hopefully it changes soon.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23410884 - 07/04/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
We should have used the stimulus to bail them out, instead of bailing the banks out. It would have been a huge popularity booster for the federal government also. FDR bailed out mainstream, Bush/Obama bailed out wall street.



Absolutely.

By the way, another point that's really important is that the Government lost nothing on the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP).  Those were loans that were paid back.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23410908 - 07/04/16 04:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
We should have used the stimulus to bail them out, instead of bailing the banks out. It would have been a huge popularity booster for the federal government also. FDR bailed out mainstream, Bush/Obama bailed out wall street.



Absolutely.

By the way, another point that's really important is that the Government lost nothing on the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP).  Those were loans that were paid back.




Those loans were extremely low interest though, or interest free,  weren't they? Shouldn't we have offered those loans to homeowners who were losing their houses?

Here's how I see it. If we had bailed out main street, that would have indirectly bailed out wall street, because the banks would have received that money, instead of people defaulting on their loans. Instead, the banks got the house, and the bailout, and they got their exorbitant bonuses for nearly crashing the economy. Yes, they should have been jailed. I think this is where the mistrust of government in recent years really started to snowball.

Am I missing something here?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23410915 - 07/04/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The way I understand the mortgage crisis, is that mortgage lenders created shell companies that took bad loans and gave them higher safety ratings, repackaged them with a new label, and sold them as if they were good. That was the only purpose of the shell companies. Isn't that blatant fraud?

I watched a documentary about Enron too... Holy fuck! You know, I was just a kid at the time, but when I saw what happened with that company, it's almost beyond belief. It just goes to show that these fat cats really aren't deserving of the wages they 'earn'.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/04/16 04:16 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23410919 - 07/04/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
By the way Falcon, you may just want to block HU like myself and Airclay have done. The forum appears to be a reasonable place once again :wink:

We have to stop fueling his stupid shit.



I agree.  Every post is the same:

1. Liberal posts something
2. HU makes a straw man argument and argues against something that was never said
3. Liberal points out the straw man flaw
4. HU accuses liberal of being insulting while calling him a libtard


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23410954 - 07/04/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Shouldn't we have offered those loans to homeowners who were losing their houses?

Here's how I see it. If we had bailed out main street, that would have indirectly bailed out wall street, because the banks would have received that money, instead of people defaulting on their loans. Instead, the banks got the house, and the bailout, and they got their exorbitant bonuses for nearly crashing the economy. Yes, they should have been jailed. I think this is where the mistrust of government in recent years really started to snowball.

Am I missing something here?



Generally true, except the banks gave loans to people that could NEVER afford to pay them back, so the Government would effectively lose out on much of those loans, and if they forgave that debt, people who were responsible would feel screwed because they'd be the ones paying for it.  I agree Congress could have done a LOT more for Main St though.
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
The way I understand the mortgage crisis, is that mortgage lenders created shell companies that took bad loans and gave them higher safety ratings, repackaged them with a new label, and sold them as if they were good. That was the only purpose of the shell companies. Isn't that blatant fraud?



Generally correct, though I'm not aware of them creating shell companies.  They simply sold the bad loans directly to the market because they were overrated, as you noted.  Some of the ratings companies should be punished as well.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23411004 - 07/04/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I will have to look into it some more, but I'm fairly certain that many of the banks were literally creating she'll companies to certify the loans as 'low risk', and resell them. I believe there was some regulation involved that caused them to do this. I just can't remember all of the details.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23411037 - 07/04/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I will have to look into it some more, but I'm fairly certain that many of the banks were literally creating she'll companies to certify the loans as 'low risk', and resell them. I believe there was some regulation involved that caused them to do this. I just can't remember all of the details.




Companies like Countrywide and Washington Mutual, ect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_acquired_or_bankrupted_during_the_Great_Recession

I believe the "too big too fail" banks are now even bigger on a relative basis.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23412687 - 07/05/16 05:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I think qman has a point, though I don't like seeing American people suffer for the fuck ups of bankers. That said, a significant portion of the population suffered dearly. We should have used the stimulus to bail them out, instead of bailing the banks out. It would have been a huge popularity booster for the federal government also. FDR bailed out mainstream, Bush/Obama bailed out wall street.

The problem is that the banks have such a powerful influence on the federal government (Clinton's relationship with Goldmann Sachs, for instance), that it is very difficult to break them up after the fact.

I don't pretend to be the most knowledgeable on all of this, but that is what I understand. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it a stipulation of the bailout that the banks be broken up?



No some of the banks were being broken up and some were too big to fail. What drove me crazy was the banks giving Christmas bonuses with the bailout money  to their execs that ruined everything. I was generally an Obama supporter, but he seemed to be too intelligent to not getting a cut of this.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23414812 - 07/05/16 07:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I think qman has a point, though I don't like seeing American people suffer for the fuck ups of bankers. That said, a significant portion of the population suffered dearly. We should have used the stimulus to bail them out, instead of bailing the banks out. It would have been a huge popularity booster for the federal government also. FDR bailed out mainstream, Bush/Obama bailed out wall street.

The problem is that the banks have such a powerful influence on the federal government (Clinton's relationship with Goldmann Sachs, for instance), that it is very difficult to break them up after the fact.

I don't pretend to be the most knowledgeable on all of this, but that is what I understand. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it a stipulation of the bailout that the banks be broken up?



No some of the banks were being broken up and some were too big to fail. What drove me crazy was the banks giving Christmas bonuses with the bailout money  to their execs that ruined everything. I was generally an Obama supporter, but he seemed to be too intelligent to not getting a cut of this.




I wrote that post on my phone, and it appears that auto-correct changed a bunch of words.

Anyways, that's quite a bold statement, to say that Obama took a cut of the bailout money. It wouldn't surprise me, but I have never really considered the idea. I suppose politicians are always brokering their influence for personal gain in some way or another, and I would highly doubt that there wasn't any of that going on in the bailout situation, with all of that money flying around.

The christmas bonuses are what pissed me off more than anything else also. A bonus is supposed to be a reward for good work.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23424829 - 07/08/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Has she no shame?????? :smirk:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23425187 - 07/08/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Has she no shame?????? :smirk:




Warren? Apparently not. I'm quite disgusted, and disheartened by this.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23427756 - 07/09/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Has she no shame?????? :smirk:




Warren? Apparently not. I'm quite disgusted, and disheartened by this.



Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Has she no shame?????? :smirk:




Warren? Apparently not. I'm quite disgusted, and disheartened by this.




I'm not a Bernie Fan, but on principle, anyone on the left who thinks anything about the situation of the country, would be well advised to support Bermie if they won't vote for Trump.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23427890 - 07/09/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'm not a Bernie Fan, but on principle, anyone on the left who thinks anything about the situation of the country, would be well advised to support Bermie if they won't vote for Trump.




I think a lot of people feel that way. People want someone that the oligarchs and lobbyists haven't sunk their claws into. People want change. Now, the changes that people are after may vary, but in general, I think it's safe to say that the country is not happy with business as usual.

We need change, but change is scary, and if we make the wrong changes, things could get very ugly. I suppose that's Hillary's appeal. Some people aren't ready for drastic change. Things are working alright for them, and they don't care to repair anything that is broken.

If we were to have another stock market crash right now, I think this country would become a very dangerous and wild place.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/09/16 10:14 PM)


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Re: Elizabeth Warren Campaigning for Clinton [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23427937 - 07/09/16 10:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

You know, the cards have lined up just right for the democrats.  The shale oil boom has energized the US economy, and the 'Brothers in Sheets' in the middle east having been able to kill the industry with low prices. 

Therefore, the emergence of the US as, once again, and international energy powerhouse has caused the US to start having robust economic growth and good employment.  Inflation looms however.

Now, people try to credit Obama for this, but the energy boom which has revitalized the US is the result of massive oil finds on PRIVATE land, which the government wasn't able to block.

And the US government has gained massive revenue from this--a windfall due to fossil fuel.

Obama fucked this country up good--and the shale oil boom saved his ass.

For that reason, say hello to President Clinton.  Because the US would be sucking shit out of the assholes of third-world countries without the stimulus of the shale oil explosion.

Oh by the way, the Saudis gave up.  They realize they have no influence over the market anymore--if they try to drive production up, then the shale oil people just start pumping again.


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