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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
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Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
existence as damage
    #23389719 - 06/28/16 12:54 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

im sure ive heard this idea here or elsewhere, it may have its roots in christian original sin but to me it rings true.. i have been kicking it around the back of my mind for a some time and would like to try clarify:

human existence on some very obvious and material level is a form of damage. we require physical space, we require physical resources. animals and plants need to die, fossil fuels, energy and water needs to be consumed, for us to subsist. everything we do and every space we take up (physical or social space), indirectly deprives someone else.

thus on some level no matter how 'good' we are internally, or righteous we think we are, we are always doing some damage, we are always denying someone else and it cannot be wholly justified...

on a social level

  • despite the best intentions an opinion occupies space, commands attention, requires certain knowledge, blocks or diverts away from others...

  • an action implies how one expects others ought to act..

  • having sex implies how one thinks one ought to have sex..

  • even existing silently, commands respect and consideration from others who would act differently without your presence and differently again if they were by themselves.

all these things are in some way a form of damage and so i think we are damaging and being damaged by the people we have relationships with (friends, lovers, family) all the time

i think both socially and physically we depend on vaster and more damaging systems outside ourselves (whether conscious of them or not) which will always leave a deficit...

so i think although we can limit our footprint, consume less and be generous to others which are all great things, we can never wholly make up for the damage we do and the project of total self denial and negation and pure righteousness is ill-conceived. as to how we ought to act with some knowledge of the damage we do, your guess is as good as mine..:shrug2:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn] * 1
    #23390620 - 06/28/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Damage is an interesting concept. To call something damaged seems to require some ideal form against which to reference it. What is the shape of an undamaged thing or person? Can we know without damaging it a teensy bit?


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Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
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Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn]
    #23390722 - 06/28/16 10:31 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

what lifeform doesn't meet one or more of the criteria you listed?


even autotrophs take up physical space.


almost all life takes life in order to continue.  this is not simply a human trait.  some forms of ants are just as destructive as humans, in terms of destroying vegetation, fighting off other colonies/species.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn]
    #23392210 - 06/28/16 08:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
im sure ive heard this idea here or elsewhere, it may have its roots in christian original sin but to me it rings true.. i have been kicking it around the back of my mind for a some time and would like to try clarify:

human existence on some very obvious and material level is a form of damage. we require physical space, we require physical resources. animals and plants need to die, fossil fuels, energy and water needs to be consumed, for us to subsist. everything we do and every space we take up (physical or social space), indirectly deprives someone else.

thus on some level no matter how 'good' we are internally, or righteous we think we are, we are always doing some damage, we are always denying someone else and it cannot be wholly justified...

on a social level

  • despite the best intentions an opinion occupies space, commands attention, requires certain knowledge, blocks or diverts away from others...

  • an action implies how one expects others ought to act..

  • having sex implies how one thinks one ought to have sex..

  • even existing silently, commands respect and consideration from others who would act differently without your presence and differently again if they were by themselves.

all these things are in some way a form of damage and so i think we are damaging and being damaged by the people we have relationships with (friends, lovers, family) all the time

i think both socially and physically we depend on vaster and more damaging systems outside ourselves (whether conscious of them or not) which will always leave a deficit...

so i think although we can limit our footprint, consume less and be generous to others which are all great things, we can never wholly make up for the damage we do and the project of total self denial and negation and pure righteousness is ill-conceived. as to how we ought to act with some knowledge of the damage we do, your guess is as good as mine..:shrug2:




Plant a tree then go fuck yourself. :fryflipoff:
Portions of mankind have caused irreparable damage to Earth's ecosystems and with widespread money and corruption in politics democracy has become a joke.
We damn well can make up for a lot of the damage we've done to the Earth but nothing can get done without proper legislation from non-bribed political leaders.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn] * 1
    #23394725 - 06/29/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

attitude (or expectation with some gesture) is not fundamentally flawed or damaged, it is a valid way of stirring the pot.

the more you know, the more specifically you might expect, and so the more refined your attitudes might be. Now if you take these mental origami postures to be more meaningful than nature, you are in for some serious reality checks.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 15 hours, 10 minutes
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn]
    #23400906 - 07/01/16 11:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nothing is permanent, so "damage" can be viewed as a form of perfection.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: existence as damage [Re: quinn]
    #23402243 - 07/01/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
im sure ive heard this idea here or elsewhere, it may have its roots in christian original sin but to me it rings true ...
human existence on some very obvious and material level is a form of damage. we require physical space, we require physical resources. animals and plants need to die, fossil fuels, energy and water needs to be consumed, for us to subsist. everything we do and every space we take up (physical or social space), indirectly deprives someone else.
...




The Jain religion took this attitude to an extreme way beyond Christianity. Buddhism took a middle path encouraging simplicity and harmlessness, also long before Christianity.

Beyond setting guidelines for a modest life style, Buddhism like some other teachings, emphasizes that experiencing the impermanence of phenomenon and realizing the equanimity that arises from being more aware make, following these guidelines much easier.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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