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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblequinn
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Posts: 6,799
Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23388654 - 06/27/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

real immature posting guy :thumbdown:


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: quinn]
    #23388722 - 06/27/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I would argue what is significant about the big religions (christianity/islam) is not their 'beliefs' but how they disseminate power through their communities and across the globe





The big religions disseminated their power through theocracies and genocidal violence. Today they're more into theocracies like Saudia Arabia and America's not far behind with their close political relationships and republican attempts at a Creationist indoctrination of the science class.

Quote:

science on the other hand is purely a method of inquiry. sure it has heirachies and power structures but they are not essential to what science is



Power structures and cladograms are essential to the foundations of science.
E.g.

Science doesn't tell you which shirts are cool, it tells you what the shirt's made of and the method in which it was produced.

What we should be doing is being moral people.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23388740 - 06/27/16 07:01 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Well in science we are looking at natural processes.  I will be the first to admit that what we see appears chaotic and meaningless.  In physics we have apparently random processes governing the behavior of our measuring instruments; in chemistry it's just a virtual infinity of different combinations of mindless, random particles; in biology, perhaps the most offensive of all, we have these creatures which appear to serve no purpose other than to survive and reproduce, and we are looking at a wide set of permutations of this genetic dance.  All in all, it does not appear to be the work of a deity, nor does it require one to make sense.  So in this way we may think that science and atheism go hand in hand.

However, that said, I think there is plausibility in the notion that the Earthly plane may not be all there is to the cosmos.  I view Earth and its processes as primitive, beautiful in some cases and not in others, and clearly not the pinnacle of the possible.  I've experienced states that suggest to me that there is a fuck of a lot more going on than most humans realize, and that perhaps there could be a notion of God as just some most powerful being, who is not necessarily omnipotent or omniscient.  To me this is possible.  At the same time, I very much enjoy studying science, and will continue to do so.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: sudly]
    #23388915 - 06/27/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The big religions disseminated their power through theocracies and genocidal violence.



no argument here (and same goes for much secular power e.g. Nazism was a secular ideology)

Quote:

Power structures and cladograms are essential to the foundations of science.



you misunderstand what is meant by 'power structures' see here

"A power structure is an overall system of influence relationships between any individual and every other individual within any selected group of people."



Quote:

Science doesn't tell you which shirts are cool, it tells you what the shirt's made of and the method in which it was produced.



sure no argument here

Quote:

What we should be doing is being moral people.



yes and how do we know what is moral? even if we believe there is a spagetti monster how do we know what it thinks is moral?

(hint: it's not through science)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: viktor]
    #23388916 - 06/27/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
If you're not an atheist, you will be bullied out of the profession by other atheists. So yeah, you pretty much have to be one otherwise you won't enjoy the lifestyle.




This is a typical baseless claim that the faithful make.  Its unfounded and ridiculous.  What exactly are you claiming?  How does this happen?  I have known many believer scientists.  They are not bullied.  In grad school I had a baptist, mormon, a muslim, atheist and agnostic lab mates.  None of them were bullied.  They graduated with their masters and PhDs and now work in industry and academia.  In undergrad our department head was a Mormon that wore a cross pin on his coat every day.  You don't get to be the head of a T1 Physics dept by being bullied out of the profession.  Even the champion of intelligent design and inventor of the concept of irreducible complexity, Behe himself, holds a position of professor of biochemistry.

Your claim is absolutely wrong.

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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? *DELETED* [Re: quinn]
    #23388944 - 06/27/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by CosmicJoke

Reason for deletion: as per user request


Edited by Signeg (06/27/16 08:19 PM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23388964 - 06/27/16 08:19 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

sorry but why would you edit or delete them and leave nothing but face palms and insults? :thumbdown:


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,069
Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: quinn]
    #23388967 - 06/27/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

sudly said:
The big religions disseminated their power through theocracies and genocidal violence.



no argument here (and same goes for much secular power e.g. Nazism was a secular ideology)

Quote:

Power structures and cladograms are essential to the foundations of science.



you misunderstand what is meant by 'power structures' see here

"A power structure is an overall system of influence relationships between any individual and every other individual within any selected group of people."



Quote:

Science doesn't tell you which shirts are cool, it tells you what the shirt's made of and the method in which it was produced.



sure no argument here

Quote:

What we should be doing is being moral people.



yes and how do we know what is moral? even if we believe there is a spagetti monster how do we know what it thinks is moral?

(hint: it's not through science)




Some people in religions are good but that doesn't mean the ideology or religion itself is good. I'm arguing that beliefs are significant to religions because they're what influence the actions they take.

I used a cladogram as a biological example of a hierarchy.


Quote:

science on the other hand is purely a method of inquiry. sure it has heirachies and power structures but they are not essential to what science is




Hierarchy's are essential to science.

Quote:

science informs us no more than it tells us which clothes are cool and which arent.



Science informs us on much more than what you've described, the tendencies of nature are one example of what science has taught us and it's called theoretical(science kind) knowledge.

Quote:

yes and how do we know what is moral? even if we believe there is a spagetti monster how do we know what it thinks is moral?
(hint: it's not through science)



We know what's moral through common sense.

Stabbing = bad
Not stabbing = good


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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? *DELETED* [Re: quinn]
    #23388968 - 06/27/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by CosmicJoke

Reason for deletion: as per user request


Edited by Signeg (06/27/16 08:23 PM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23388973 - 06/27/16 08:23 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Signeg said:
Why not?

I edited my posts... So i wasnt sharing any ideas with any of you psychopaths.



oh yes, sorry i stand corrected you were being very mature.:rolleyes:

im sorry you seem to have had a bad experience but you dont need to take criticism of your ideas so personally :shrug:


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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? *DELETED* [Re: Signeg]
    #23388974 - 06/27/16 08:24 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by CosmicJoke

Reason for deletion: as per user request


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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23388975 - 06/27/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

as per user request

Edited by CosmicJoke (06/27/16 09:20 PM)

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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23388976 - 06/27/16 08:26 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

as per user request

Edited by CosmicJoke (06/27/16 09:21 PM)

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InvisibleSigneg
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? *DELETED* [Re: quinn]
    #23388989 - 06/27/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by CosmicJoke

Reason for deletion: as per user request


Edited by Signeg (06/27/16 08:29 PM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg] * 1
    #23389003 - 06/27/16 08:31 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

can you go 'not share your ideas' someplace else and quit wasting space in the thread? and stop telling us we are discussing pointless shit while you post a bunch of pointless shit.. come back when you are sober or an adult or whatever


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/05/00
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23389005 - 06/27/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Say goodbye to Signeg for bumping a post 5 consecutive times with off topic melting.  Stay on topic guys, reasonably good discussion to be had here.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: Signeg]
    #23389014 - 06/27/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: sudly]
    #23389023 - 06/27/16 08:35 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
They don't have to be an atheist but logically they should.

Science and religion contradict severely, especially with the over 4000 religions practiced in modern times.






as far as i've ever interpreted, science does not contradict religion.  religion(s), from time to time, attempt to contradict science.  i can't find a source, but we were taught (at a fundmentalist christian institution) that the aim of science is not to attempt to prove or disprove the validity of religious claims.  this (rough) statement was included in principles of science in our textbooks, publishers varying.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: demiu5]
    #23389093 - 06/27/16 08:52 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

^^^ I agree. Science's aim is NOT to disprove religion. That isn't its aim. It is aimed at uncovering identifiable truths. If it disproves some of religions claims, it isnt a goal; it's a consequence. Conversely, if it proves something of religions claims, then again, it is just a consequence. The benefits of meditation in the Buddhist context come to mind here.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Must a scientist be an atheist? [Re: sudly]
    #23389102 - 06/27/16 08:55 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Some people in religions are good but that doesn't mean the ideology or religion itself is good. I'm arguing that beliefs are significant to religions because they're what influence the actions they take.



sure, but the significant actions and beliefs are the ones that materially effect the world and other people IMO. as i mentioned Nazis were secular. believing in god or not is not what makes a person or institution good or bad.

Quote:

I used a cladogram as a biological example of a hierarchy.

Hierarchy's are essential to science.



did you look at the link i posted? that is not what i was talking about.

anyone can practice the scientific method in their life by themselves. you dont need to be in contact with the scientific community to do real science. science in essence is a method

Quote:

Science informs us on much more than what you've described, the tendencies of nature are one example of what science has taught us and it's called theoretical(science kind) knowledge.




oh i am not saying science doesnt provide knowledge or inform our decisions but that our cultures tell us what decisions to make and what to value etc

Quote:

We know what's moral through common sense.

Stabbing = bad
Not stabbing = good




yeah, 'common'='shared' sense, our socialisation informs our morality


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