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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23398722 - 06/30/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Work is an eclipse of the Sun..which is in Marroon and undercover waters..like a dessert without an Oasis or wasteland without a void..the problem of work is when you have nothing to do and get bored..or you do enjoy the work that you must do..based on meditation and the security for the common good of the people!


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23399558 - 07/01/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ModestMouse said:
I firmly believe that work, hard work, is not only necessary to make an individual whole but incredibly enjoyable.

Yet in a conversation with Average Joe we come to learn that he hates work, or atleast says he does. He is constantly waiting for lunch, waiting to go home, waiting to be done, waiting to be old and retired and expended. We are told and warned not to work our life away, yet so many before us have done so in a dignified fashion and without question or qualm. Work is how we built this world we live in. The working man is to be given absolute and total credit for everything we have.

Why then, does Joe hate work? Is it because the work itself is unfulfilling to him or are many humans just conditioned to enjoy and seek a state of Sloth.
I for one get severely depressed when I am not working for long stretches of time. I always hate waking up for work, but when I'm in the middle of a laborious task I find myself humming happily in my head. When the job is done I feel great at my affect on the job I have done.

Do you find dignity in labor? Are most humans really conditioned to seek a state of zero energy expenditure?




A lot of people think their way of life is the Way. How do we know youre not just another one of these shmucks OP. I don't sense any spark in your words. :awesketch:

Just kidding. The reward of finishing off a long days work is a good high. That and the feeling of
being part of a community of co-workers can be highly rewarding.

My happiest is when I'm switching stuff up and not stagnating. I'm like a wild cat that's forgot how to be a tame house cat. Just doesn't work. Need change to keep the spark alive.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23399944 - 07/01/16 04:37 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think work is not enjoyable when you know that your job could be replaced by a computer, or if you are producing $100 worth of goods and services per hour and only being allowed to keep a fraction of that.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23400953 - 07/01/16 12:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Many gain a sense of pride in their work, but to feel good due to one's accomplishments is a form of suffering.

Since the "pride" of accomplishment fades, one must keep going back to the work to refresh the ego. Repeatedly.

Some have difficulty retiring because they have based their self image on being "productive", so they go back to work.

As a recovering work-a-holic, my goal is to not base my dignity on my work.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23402209 - 07/01/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Many gain a sense of pride in their work, but to feel good due to one's accomplishments is a form of suffering.

Since the "pride" of accomplishment fades, one must keep going back to the work to refresh the ego. Repeatedly.

Some have difficulty retiring because they have based their self image on being "productive", so they go back to work.
...




:thumbup: exactly


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23402544 - 07/01/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Many gain a sense of pride in their work, but to feel good due to one's accomplishments is a form of suffering.

Since the "pride" of accomplishment fades, one must keep going back to the work to refresh the ego. Repeatedly.

Some have difficulty retiring because they have based their self image on being "productive", so they go back to work.

As a recovering work-a-holic, my goal is to not base my dignity on my work.




I was going to mention something along these lines but didn't feel like writing it up.

I've switched between working in social and solitary environments, I've had a lot
of different friends and groups of friends and spent periods of time mostly alone,
and have found that when I'm socially active, it will be harder to be alone, because
I'll crave the socialization. When I'm alone, I get used to being comfortable with myself,
but it does get lonely.

I think a well rounded person will have learned how live apart from his usual routine,
so if the routine is disturbed, he'll be more easily able to adapt to the different
lifestyle. People who work their whole lives consistently without switching things up
would probably have a hard time adjusting to retirement especially if their means of
gratifying themselves socially and emotionally are mostly done through work.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23403939 - 07/02/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that technology would have advanced sufficiently by century’s end that countries like Great Britain or the United States would achieve a 15-hour work week.








What is stopping you from working 15 hours a week?  I worked 15-20 hours a week for most of my adult life.  I got my first full time job in my early 30s.  It is possible, particularly if you live a 1930s standard of living. 

Even though our material wealth has skyrocketed since then, it is still surpassed by our expectations.  That is why people have to work so much, to afford all the luxury in their life.  Its not needed, its wanted.


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OfflineFranciscosaysno
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23498488 - 08/01/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree being unemployed for an extended period of time sucks, but so does working too much. I'm in landscaping, and while the work can be pretty satisfying it is hard on my body, exhausting and we work 10-12 hour days. There are times where I rather be home relaxing.

I think the key is in hours worked per week. The 40 hour work week is fine IMO, but so, so rare in my experience. It's either a part time job or 50+ hours.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Franciscosaysno]
    #23498574 - 08/01/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I know what it was like to work in a factory system where you feel like your a cog in a machine. Hell!! No dignity in that, being a wage slave

This is the kind of views I agree with:

'I feel like a slave right now... In this very moment

When I go to work I feel hollow on the inside and I want to kill myself. However I can't kill myself because I need to take care of my wife. I don't know what to do. I feel like the only crazy person who believes that work is slavery. Even my family thinks I'm crazy.
The only time I'm ever happy is on sick days or vacation days, or holidays or days I make up an excuse to get out of work. These all add up to maybe 4 weeks a year of time that I actually get JUST FOR ME. The rest of the time it's working for the higher ups, fixing their computers and keeping their network running. I feel replaceable, so I have to work long, hard hours to keep my wage (which is why I work at all... My wage).
I have suicidal thoughts on a regular basis, but I can't follow through because I can't put my family through the loss. I'm on autopilot, an empty shell of a man for 9 hours per day, 5 days per week.
I can't even do normal things like get my car serviced or have a doctor's appointment because the mechanic and the doctor work 8-5 too, so how can I get anything done? Weekends. Weekends aren't free for me either because I have to do all my chores on the weekends.
Is this life? It feels like slavery. I want to just grow my own food, chop down some trees to make my own house and enjoy being outside sometimes when the sun is actually out. But I go to work in the morning when it's dark and I hardly ever get to see the family that I love because I wasn't born with rich parents. I have to work for the money that I have, which is the money that pays the bills, the mortgage, the groceries and puts gas in the car. I don't get to keep any of my money.
It's all totally screwed up.
You can't tell me that I'm not a slave, because I feel like one.'


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: zzripz]
    #23499905 - 08/01/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23500024 - 08/01/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ModestMouse said:
I firmly believe that work, hard work, is not only necessary to make an individual whole but incredibly enjoyable.



Do you find dignity in labor? Are most humans really conditioned to seek a state of zero energy expenditure?





i don't know about dignity (okay, vaingloriously, yes, yes i do) but i certainly derive pleasure from my job.  from start to finish, there is an obvious change in the landscape, improvement in the overall health of the stand (or meadow).  i'm constantly moving, lifting/moving heavy objects, working out stabilizer muscles, sweating, burning calories.  and the best part, up until it's too dry for safety's sake, i get to re-connect with one of our oldest, most entwined (and for many, lost) elements, fire.  nothing beats sitting around the lunch fire or coals, losing myself in its dance, play, beauty.


most people aren't fortunate enough to have my "job", though :grin:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: zzripz]
    #23504085 - 08/02/16 11:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:

When I go to work I feel hollow on the inside and I want to kill myself.





Are you willing to consider this has to do with you and not your job?


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23504654 - 08/03/16 07:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I dunno man, I can't say I feel as strongly about it as zz, but I do feel a strong sense of moral discord and emptiness in my role. I worked 14 years to get to the top of my game and now I'm there I realise it literally goes against everything I stand for.

I suppose, writing that, and having seen your views RJ, that I wish to work that knowing that what 'I am' is not really relevant at all, but yanno, this human adventure is a bugger when it comes to the whole 'sense of self' malarkey.

I realised the other day how unnatural the environment so many of us work in is to us. The thought was inspired by this:



I bust out laughing when I first saw it.

It's a mock up posted on the barriers they're building round one of the new skyscrapers in the city. See how they put grass on the fucking walls now? I mean what could be more unnatural than that??

But these designers seem to know that there's some part of our hearts that yearns for nature, and I believe that many of us that sit all day inside these concrete monoliths know that there's something not right about it. So they placate us just that little bit to keep us doing what we know is not right and feeling at least partially comfortable about it (IMO).

I think humans were meant to work with the earth, not against it, and I believe this is what leads so many of us to feel 'hollow' about our jobs - we're missing some sense of connection we yearn for.

Thoughts?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23504723 - 08/03/16 08:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I guess I agree with the (radical?) view that we can be at peace in any situation.

Viktor Frankl, the Holocaust survivor, writes about some people in the death camps that were
able to maintain their mental health and sense of well being, even though they knew they
were about to be killed.

It's related to the peace of mind many people experience when they are told they are about
to die of a disease. Suddenly everything they resisted about life and all of their troubles disappear.
Many people at deaths doorstop experience peace and freedom for the first time.

That said, I think the structured 40 - 60 hour work week has massive negative repercussions.
Primates such as ourselves are wired to hang out all day eating, resting, having sex,
playing, and foraging for new food sources.

I can relate to work bringing "moral discord and emptiness". I get that. My posts can veer into idealism.

I strive to be like those people who were able to maintain their dignity and peace
while waiting to killed during the Holocaust. A type of deep peace that is rooted in the
heart and not dependent on any particular situation in life.

Oh, crap, I think I ranted about the problems with ideals in another thread!


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Offlineyeah
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23504737 - 08/03/16 08:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------


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InvisibleKhancious
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23504777 - 08/03/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I dunno man, I can't say I feel as strongly about it as zz, but I do feel a strong sense of moral discord and emptiness in my role. I worked 14 years to get to the top of my game and now I'm there I realise it literally goes against everything I stand for.

I suppose, writing that, and having seen your views RJ, that I wish to work that knowing that what 'I am' is not really relevant at all, but yanno, this human adventure is a bugger when it comes to the whole 'sense of self' malarkey.

I realised the other day how unnatural the environment so many of us work in is to us. The thought was inspired by this:



I bust out laughing when I first saw it.

It's a mock up posted on the barriers they're building round one of the new skyscrapers in the city. See how they put grass on the fucking walls now? I mean what could be more unnatural than that??

But these designers seem to know that there's some part of our hearts that yearns for nature, and I believe that many of us that sit all day inside these concrete monoliths know that there's something not right about it. So they placate us just that little bit to keep us doing what we know is not right and feeling at least partially comfortable about it (IMO).

I think humans were meant to work with the earth, not against it, and I believe this is what leads so many of us to feel 'hollow' about our jobs - we're missing some sense of connection we yearn for.

Thoughts?




:thumbup:

I've never felt more comfortable than walking out in the foliage and flora of my environment or when deep in an altered organic state of mind or wrapped in union with a female companion.

I decided to work at home as a real estate agent and an herbal medicine distributor to "play the game" for now,
which curbs the resistance and unease of the 9-5, concrete slave plantation feel, but here I am surrounded by walls that only breath with enough psilocin binding on my serotonin receptors.
I think at least finding a balance if one can't go the au-naturel route is important to fulfillment,
but I do envision "owning" some land and being self-sufficient and in-tune with the harmony.


--------------------
I am that, which is.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23504821 - 08/03/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I dunno man, I can't say I feel as strongly about it as zz, but I do feel a strong sense of moral discord and emptiness in my role. I worked 14 years to get to the top of my game and now I'm there I realise it literally goes against everything I stand for.

I suppose, writing that, and having seen your views RJ, that I wish to work that knowing that what 'I am' is not really relevant at all, but yanno, this human adventure is a bugger when it comes to the whole 'sense of self' malarkey.

I realised the other day how unnatural the environment so many of us work in is to us. The thought was inspired by this:



I bust out laughing when I first saw it.

It's a mock up posted on the barriers they're building round one of the new skyscrapers in the city. See how they put grass on the fucking walls now? I mean what could be more unnatural than that??

But these designers seem to know that there's some part of our hearts that yearns for nature, and I believe that many of us that sit all day inside these concrete monoliths know that there's something not right about it. So they placate us just that little bit to keep us doing what we know is not right and feeling at least partially comfortable about it (IMO).

I think humans were meant to work with the earth, not against it, and I believe this is what leads so many of us to feel 'hollow' about our jobs - we're missing some sense of connection we yearn for.

Thoughts?




I definitely agree that there has been a break with our evolutionary heritage -- this is not the natural environment or habitat of humans -- and it is causing us a lot of problems.  Anger, neurosis, loneliness, despair, etc., etc.  We are meant to have an intimate connection with our environment, so it is not surprising that when our environment is an artificial piece of shit we go a little (or a lot) crazy.

Nice post, Jsb.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23504843 - 08/03/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

zzripz said:

When I go to work I feel hollow on the inside and I want to kill myself.





Are you willing to consider this has to do with you and not your job?




It wasn't me saying it, I had quoted it--see the quote marks?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23504870 - 08/03/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I dunno man, I can't say I feel as strongly about it as zz, but I do feel a strong sense of moral discord and emptiness in my role. I worked 14 years to get to the top of my game and now I'm there I realise it literally goes against everything I stand for.

I suppose, writing that, and having seen your views RJ, that I wish to work that knowing that what 'I am' is not really relevant at all, but yanno, this human adventure is a bugger when it comes to the whole 'sense of self' malarkey.

I realised the other day how unnatural the environment so many of us work in is to us. The thought was inspired by this:



I bust out laughing when I first saw it.

It's a mock up posted on the barriers they're building round one of the new skyscrapers in the city. See how they put grass on the fucking walls now? I mean what could be more unnatural than that??

But these designers seem to know that there's some part of our hearts that yearns for nature, and I believe that many of us that sit all day inside these concrete monoliths know that there's something not right about it. So they placate us just that little bit to keep us doing what we know is not right and feeling at least partially comfortable about it (IMO).

I think humans were meant to work with the earth, not against it, and I believe this is what leads so many of us to feel 'hollow' about our jobs - we're missing some sense of connection we yearn for.

Thoughts?





What you point out is CENTRAL to all the problems we are facing. See what the mindset which invaded our ancestors and continues to oppress us also did/do to other peoples who live closer the land, called native peoples and/or indigenous peoples. They literally tear them from the land. Not just physically, as in fencing off land and shunting them into enclosed ghettos, reservations, but deeply psychically when they force them through violence to not even speak their own language which is intimately related to the land. As well as banning them from taking various psychedelic and psychoactive vegetation which grows naturally and which inspires an ecstatic connection with nature and community of others. Again this is exactly what they are doing to us!!


Edited by zzripz (08/03/16 09:24 AM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: zzripz]
    #23504886 - 08/03/16 09:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:

It wasn't me saying it, I had quoted it--see the quote marks?





(You said you agree with that viewpoint)

Sorry, I was drunk last night. I can be a bit of a snarky prick when I drink.


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