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InvisibleModestMouse
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The dignity of the working man * 1
    #23385194 - 06/26/16 07:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I firmly believe that work, hard work, is not only necessary to make an individual whole but incredibly enjoyable.

Yet in a conversation with Average Joe we come to learn that he hates work, or atleast says he does. He is constantly waiting for lunch, waiting to go home, waiting to be done, waiting to be old and retired and expended. We are told and warned not to work our life away, yet so many before us have done so in a dignified fashion and without question or qualm. Work is how we built this world we live in. The working man is to be given absolute and total credit for everything we have.

Why then, does Joe hate work? Is it because the work itself is unfulfilling to him or are many humans just conditioned to enjoy and seek a state of Sloth.
I for one get severely depressed when I am not working for long stretches of time. I always hate waking up for work, but when I'm in the middle of a laborious task I find myself humming happily in my head. When the job is done I feel great at my affect on the job I have done.

Do you find dignity in labor? Are most humans really conditioned to seek a state of zero energy expenditure?


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OfflineBozko
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23385215 - 06/26/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

There is no joy in work that doesn't need to be done, at least from a personal perspective.

At some point making widgets becomes unfulfilling if you have no idea what they do or where they go. Ditto for McDoubles.


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ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.


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InvisibleModestMouse
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Bozko]
    #23385227 - 06/26/16 07:19 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

How does one determine whether or not the work needed done?

I will admit that I work in manual labor now, after having several fast food jobs and a couple of office jobs I have found physical laboring is the most rewarding. Perhaps it's because of what you say, tangible results, or perhaps it's because energy expenditure is rewarding


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OfflineBozko
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23385338 - 06/26/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I work in manual labor, and feel like I have decent work ethic.


But at some point I do my job for the money and expectations of those I care about, some of whom I happen to work for.


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ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23386045 - 06/26/16 10:54 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I am a network technician, and I affirm that less work makes me happier, and gives me time to pursue the things that make me interesting...work is for money to do that. Money without work is a win/win. Hard work can pay off financially, but as a builder of character it is over rated.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #23386567 - 06/27/16 04:47 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

there are two types of work that I find fulfilling
1. straightening up or sorting and moving stuff - often including menial work but satisfying because the job not done is obvious proof of the need to do the job - in this it is pretty easy to negotiate fair pay, though it is often low pay.
and
2. development or creative assembly - including designing things with the mind. this boils down to straightening and sorting and moving virtual stuff, but it is not necessarily obvious to others what needs to be done when it is not yet done, but often awe inspiring to others when it is finished. This is a more difficult thing for which to negotiate pay, but it can be satisfying if you are recognized.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibletrscstghst
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23387212 - 06/27/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

love working for myself, getting things done I want to see get done. 

hate working for someone else, because it steals all my time and energy and prevents me from getting the things that I want done done


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Why use up the forests which were centuries in the making and the mines which required ages to lay down, if we can get the equivalent of forest and mineral products in the annual growth of the hemp fields?
o Henry Ford


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse] * 3
    #23387756 - 06/27/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I think this question opens up a huge can of issues relating to personal identity, empathy, desire, expectations, resentment, self-awareness, interconnectedness, enculturation, etc.

There is a give and take to life that is not always apparent and varies in time as we amass and disperse. We are largely ignorant of the vast implications of the smallest action. As one expands awareness of these implications beyond the immediate, they will typically find something good, like providing sustenance and security for others, or something bad, like our current cultural issue of one's efforts being systematically leeched by the owners.

People typically react to these insights emotionally and they help form one's attitude toward work. Further insights may invert one's attitude or slant it elsewhere, but I have the impression that much of humanity is operating on a rather short string of implications which pertain to their ability to acquire things for themselves and their family.

But that all happens on a cognitive level. On a more immediate level, we seem impelled to some movements. Stationary body, expansive mind. Empty mind, vital body. People seem motivated to do things absent any consideration of its effects.

I can't pretend to characterize it all, but I thing there is a meeting of the cognitive understanding of our work and its effect on the bigger picture, our inner inspiration to some sort of activity, and the cultural programming that slants us to some ethic or lack thereof regarding this thing called 'work.'

Personally, I've chosen unemployment and what might appear to be sloth for long stretches, though not without some guilt about being a non-contributor. I tend to be very physically active for part of the day, and very mentally active for another, in a largely economically inert sort of way. But I also see my focus on play and self-awareness as an investment of sorts which is beginning to pay dividends in terms of the well being of myself and those around me.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23390013 - 06/28/16 05:15 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ModestMouse said:
How does one determine whether or not the work needed done?





If someone is willing to pay you, the work is generally needed. Doesn't mean I'm happy to do it. Flushing fatbergs out of sewers, for instance. It needs to be done. I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.


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OfflineBozko
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Kryptos]
    #23390858 - 06/28/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ModestMouse said:
How does one determine whether or not the work needed done?





If someone is willing to pay you, the work is generally needed. Doesn't mean I'm happy to do it. Flushing fatbergs out of sewers, for instance. It needs to be done. I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.




Occupying Iraq? Smuggling drugs? You can be paid for things that arguably don't need to be done, especially in a world where real people believe in trickle-down economics as a way to stimulate the market.


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ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.


Edited by Bozko (06/28/16 11:34 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Bozko] * 3
    #23390880 - 06/28/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bozko said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ModestMouse said:
How does one determine whether or not the work needed done?





If someone is willing to pay you, the work is generally needed. Doesn't mean I'm happy to do it. Flushing fatbergs out of sewers, for instance. It needs to be done. I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.




Occupying Iraq? Smuggling drugs? You can be paid for things that arguably don't need to be done, especially in a world where real people believe in trickle-down economics as a way to stimulate the market.




It seems to me that many of the jobs people are doing are not absolutely necessary.  Couple this superfluousness with the trend of higher and higher levels of unemployment (as more jobs become automated), and we've got some serious problems.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Bozko] * 3
    #23390922 - 06/28/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It seems to me that many of the jobs people are doing are not absolutely necessary.



And therefore:

Quote:

Bozko said:
There is no joy in work that doesn't need to be done.



Here, ladies and gentlemen, is the true heart of the issue IMO.

Quote:


In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that technology would have advanced sufficiently by century’s end that countries like Great Britain or the United States would achieve a 15-hour work week. There’s every reason to believe he was right. In technological terms, we are quite capable of this. And yet it didn’t happen. Instead, technology has been marshaled, if anything, to figure out ways to make us all work more. In order to achieve this, jobs have had to be created that are, effectively, pointless. Huge swathes of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they secretly believe do not really need to be performed. The moral and spiritual damage that comes from this situation is profound. It is a scar across our collective soul. Yet virtually no one talks about it.



Source (great essay IMO <10mins read)


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23391122 - 06/28/16 01:23 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Fantastic. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23392323 - 06/28/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Work has a lot of benefits to man. The Philokalia says the monk who works only contends with one demon, whereas the idle monk faces a thousand.

Work builds discipline, character and endurance and can be a creative endeavor.

However, I also think too much work can be oppressive and draining especially in a society where you can work 40 hrs a week and still not be able to afford your own apartment.

This summer I am working reduced hours, because I am on a healing journey and needed time to spend doing other things. When I was working five days a week, I was too tired to do anything but the minimum for survival.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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InvisibleModestMouse
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23392330 - 06/28/16 09:20 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I work 70 hours a week between two jobs (one paid, one which will hopefully pay off) and don't feel overwhelmed.

The one vs a thousand demons is how I feel regarding work. While I'm working I feel almost entirely free of stress. There are no worries of the future, thoughts about the past, or concerns beyond the moment and task at hand.

I suppose age and other factors contribute though.
I'm at the age where if I weren't missing out on seeing friends/family/my girlfriend I wouldn't feel bad about working even more hours.

Also I think enjoying "free time" is relative.
Many equate more free time with happiness while I equate less free time with a higher valuing of said time but no net loss in happiness.


--------------------
Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?


Edited by ModestMouse (06/28/16 09:27 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse] * 1
    #23394694 - 06/29/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

this is free time


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OfflinePaulMaster
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23397256 - 06/30/16 11:48 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I find immense pleasure in accurately aimed effort. When effort is meaningful it is beautiful.

For example, my day job sucks. I make the most of it, but as soon as they stop with the paychecks I stop showing up. I am not fulfilled at all by this job and as such, I seek out fulfillment elsewhere. The quote above about many people feeling their work is pointless rings 100% true for me and my position. This job could absolutely be done by a computer or it could be eliminated altogether.

On the other hand, I pay to train jiu jitsu. I look forward to training. Its the most demanding physical exertion I've ever experienced (save, perhaps, a roofing job back in the day), its an incredible mental challenge, yet I look forward to getting to "work" on the mat every single day!

We have evolved to work hard, no question about it - we hunted the mammoth! But not all work is created equal.


Edited by PaulMaster (06/30/16 11:53 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: PaulMaster]
    #23397487 - 06/30/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting post. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineExotica1
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23398485 - 06/30/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Da workin man is a sucka! Haven't you watched Bronx tale?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The dignity of the working man [Re: ModestMouse]
    #23398514 - 06/30/16 06:30 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ModestMouse said:
I work 70 hours a week between two jobs (one paid, one which will hopefully pay off) and don't feel overwhelmed.

The one vs a thousand demons is how I feel regarding work. While I'm working I feel almost entirely free of stress. There are no worries of the future, thoughts about the past, or concerns beyond the moment and task at hand.

I suppose age and other factors contribute though.
I'm at the age where if I weren't missing out on seeing friends/family/my girlfriend I wouldn't feel bad about working even more hours.

Also I think enjoying "free time" is relative.
Many equate more free time with happiness while I equate less free time with a higher valuing of said time but no net loss in happiness.




Today I dug a hole trying to find a tank which I couldn't.  I'm 62 years old and digging holes in the heat is getting old too.  Locating tanks, locating pipes, that's getting old.  Plumbers are idiots when it comes to this, apparently.  Of course they still want their hundred bucks an hour for being so fucking licensed, and so dignified. 

Anyway I like your attitude, gotta dig to find shit and if you aren't willing to put in an honest days work and not soak off of your mom in her basement or on the ground floor it's a better situation for all concerned.

Situation.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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