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Psychogenic
Tripped out jungle monkey



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 631
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Question
#23382761 - 06/26/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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What kind of insight or knowledge that people like Terence McKenna, Ralph Abraham, Rubret Sheldrake are talking about that psychedelics can provide that science can't? They always speak of this ineffable and explicable knowledge that a psychedelic experience can contain. I cant see how there is something in these experiences that science doesn't have an answer for already that cant be accessed without a psychedelic. I smell bullshit. I guess Sheldrake was banned from TED for a reason right?
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healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
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Loc: the universe, the milky w...
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I think the problem is that the ineffable can't be communicated and so it can't be scientifically analyzed. It's possible that psychedelics give access to ineffable knowledge, or it might just be that they intensify your emotions to the point that one's reaction to mundane knowledge makes that knowledge feel ineffable. It's not really possible to know.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (06/26/16 03:26 AM)
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Kush_Zombie
smug piece of shit



Registered: 10/22/14
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Question [Re: healing]
#23382885 - 06/26/16 03:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the difference between speakers of psychedelics and scientists that deal with psychedelics is willingness.
In other words, Terence (for example because he's the one I listen to the most) can hypothesize about psychedelics all day long...but his line of work (as a speaker) and what he wanted to do (speak about these experiences) kept him from also pursuing a career as a scientist.
Science tends to stick with "facts". A very controversial term with psychedelics. People like me can take psychedelics and understand that there's more to them than just eating a trippy mushroom..but all I can do is explain my experience with words to the best of my ability (like the speakers you mentioned did) but I wouldn't know the first thing about putting foundation to my thoughts.
It can clearly have a foundation put to it but most major scientists are getting paid to genetically engineer food and support prescription medication. Psychedelics probably never cross their mind in day-to-day life. There are things about psychedelics that science can prove but it's coming at a very slow rate from so few scientists.
But if you put these speakers or even a few of your average joe psychedelic users in a room with a couple million dollars worth of equipment and tools then I bet we'd find out more about psychedelics in a couple of years than we have in our lifetime.
Tl;dr - psychedelics have no use for further research in a world dedicated to governing people. This is why mushrooms are a Schedule 1 substance which claims it has no health benefits and has a high likely chance of addiction (which we should all know by now is complete bullshit).
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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scragins



Registered: 04/20/16
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia
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Scientific views change all the time.
At one point; We were the centre of the universe and everything revolved around us. The earth was flat. Go too far and you'll fall off the edge.
Now we are discovering quantum physics, how our conscious dictates the 'state' of things, and shit may not even be real.
Who knows? In 500 years, the world DMT brings us to may be 'scientifically proven' to be the true nature of things.
-------------------- Be the change you wish to see in this world
Edited by scragins (06/26/16 04:48 AM)
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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Scientists say math is universal and its the only consistent thing.
Yet math is just another way to explain things. Math is not real until we decided to make it real.
the point is...theres nothing science can do to disprove the psychedelic experience.
and there is nothing the psychedelic experience can do to disprove science..
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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AuroraBorealis88
Stranger


Registered: 05/06/16
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This sounds like a really bad attempt at trolling. Science knows very little about the psychedelic experience and how exactly it works.
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Psychogenic
Tripped out jungle monkey



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You might want to shift your attention to McKenna! He seems more like a benevolent version of Aleister Crowly of psychedelic drugs. Maybe my words weren't big enough for you to do that. Content should be valued over style!
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AuroraBorealis88
Stranger


Registered: 05/06/16
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Why would I shift my attention to McKenna
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Kush_Zombie
smug piece of shit



Registered: 10/22/14
Posts: 4,793
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Sounds like a shitposter that's trying to make some vague point rather than actually ask a question imo
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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theshrumnub
God



Registered: 09/02/15
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science doesn't have a lot of answers for a lot of things, it isn't this 'know all' discipline. it can't answer the placebo effect, what's at the end of black holes, and a ton of other shit, even stuff we've never observed. do you smell bullshit there, too? you're trying to debunk something that can't be debunked, and it's quite funny. scientists barely know what these substances do to make someone trip, and by trip i mean it in the most basic way. visual and auditory impairment, body high, etc.
this is like me asking you a highly intricate question regarding rocket science, and calling you an imbecile when you attempt to answer.
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Psychogenic
Tripped out jungle monkey



Registered: 05/26/14
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McKenna was even shit talking Carl Sagan. Anyone interested in Science knows Carl Sagan was the man! That was the question; what is he talking about? What is he trying to describe? What he is promoting is more vague than my post! Science doesn't fuck around either! It is the pillar of rationality and knowledge. I think scientists are taking a mechanistic approach to these experiences, but it has been known for years there are many different states to this experience.I want to believe DMT may tune the brain into "another reality Channel", but it is too hard to believe. I have never even seen entities on a psychedelic experience, so it is hard to promote a psychedelic experience when there are many different types. Ralph Abraham talks about "time geometry" and shit like this. IDK.
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logikal
POSIX Compliant
Registered: 06/11/16
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Psychogenic said: McKenna was even shit talking Carl Sagan. Anyone interested in Science knows Carl Sagan was the man! That was the question; what is he talking about? What is he trying to describe? What he is promoting is more vague than my post! Science doesn't fuck around either! It is the pillar of rationality and knowledge. I think scientists are taking a mechanistic approach to these experiences, but it has been known for years there are many different states to this experience.I want to believe DMT may tune the brain into "another reality Channel", but it is too hard to believe. I have never even seen entities on a psychedelic experience, so it is hard to promote a psychedelic experience when there are many different types. Ralph Abraham talks about "time geometry" and shit like this. IDK.
Let me say first that I love listening to McKenna and reading his books, but I think he has taken too many psychs and is a bit off because of it (in a harmless way ). From what I've gotten from McKenna regarding science is that he believes science does great things that help people eat, kill, procreate, etc. He also sees a gaping hole at the foundation of scientific thought that is the total disregard to WHY we want to do those things better. He sees much of science is building a great pyramid, but not knowing what for.
Science ignores the fundamental question of why we are all here (a purpose, not just some explanation of what made it happen). Science also needs there to be a reason, or else all that it achieves would be masturbation. Science fundamentally cannot give anyone any insight into a true purpose, or meaning to life, and therefore will ignore that question like the plague because it is the Achilles tendon of rational/scientific thought. Science will view the psychedelic experience as some set of chemical reactions that cause some psychological outcomes/behaviors, however, many users of these chemicals will view that as blasphemy as there is way more going on then just getting high and acting delusional.
Personal anecdote here, but psychs helped me get out of a lifelong "depression." They showed me that no amount of reason will make me happy, and that pure reason is absolutely ridiculous. I was a follower of science before, to my own demise really. Now I love science for what it gives, but I know that it is useless, if not detrimental, when worshiped as a deity. Psychs help people see something higher and greater than anything that humans can control, science says that everything can be controlled if we know the variables (disregard quantum physics for that, you know what I mean).
I hope that explains McKenna a bit, he actually really influenced my thinking, but I find that if I'm sober he's a little too out there. Tying in what he says with stuff from other "philosophers" (if he can be called that) such as Kant, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, even Plato and Aristotle that I had read previous to ever trying psychedelics really put things into perspective for me. Kierkegaard went from being a pussy-ass-Nietzsche to being the actual truth of the matter and Nietzsche was a stepping stone to discovering/understanding him. Kant went from being an idiot who couldn't think deeply enough to a profound leader in prescriptive philosophy. Descartes went from being the most brilliant man to grace this Earth to being a bit reductionist at times, so sure that reason alone could solve all the world's problems.
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Psychogenic
Tripped out jungle monkey



Registered: 05/26/14
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Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Question [Re: logikal]
#23385831 - 06/26/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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That is bullshit! The main objections science has is answering why we exist and how the universe works. Technology is a spin off and is only based on scientific principles. They do admit they don't have many answers regarding morals, but there are valid theories. Science has answers to almost everything, but there are still many questions to be answered that eventually will be! Science should be highly respected!!
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Kush_Zombie
smug piece of shit



Registered: 10/22/14
Posts: 4,793
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You're just a sad kid throwing a tantrum about anything and everything
-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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logikal
POSIX Compliant
Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 29
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Psychogenic said: That is bullshit! The main objections science has is answering why we exist and how the universe works. Technology is a spin off and is only based on scientific principles. They do admit they don't have many answers regarding morals, but there are valid theories. Science has answers to almost everything, but there are still many questions to be answered that eventually will be! Science should be highly respected!!
What makes you think it isn't highly respected? Science is great but it is a mean, not an end. Living your life purely for science will leave you empty and broken. There needs to be a little room for "God" or whatever you want to call it, or else you'll probably go insane. Science does not answer why it is that intelligent, caring life forms evolve from nothing. It might explain the physical side of things, but there's always another question to answer, and there will ALWAYS be more questions.
Gödel's incompleteness theorem shows us that we can never make a totally complete and reasonable system, there is always some level of faith (or some axioms) one must assume in order to have that system in the first place. As humans we will never understand the universe in its entirety, we are not the universe, we are just part of it, at the whim of it. Science is driven by the idea that all is conquerable if we just knew MORE, but we can never know enough to totally understand what is going on in the world.
No one is saying to throw science by the wayside (if they are don't listen to them), but we as humans have a responsibility to keep science under control. We need to remember that it is a tool that we use to help us live happier and healthier lives. Science likely will never explain why it is that humans "need" to be happy, science really is almost antithetical to that idea. Happiness has no scientific value, it's just a delusion that mammals have evolved in order to better survive their environment. Happiness is just a byproduct of a certain chemical reaction in a carbon-based computer. You know though that that's not true, or at least not as true as some other explanation.
Science is great and amazing, but there needs to be something more than just pure reason in order to go on living. There are many philosophers who have went down the road of pure reason, they end up deciding suicide is the moral requisite for every human. Many follow through with that idea. Other thinkers that you've maybe heard of (like the before-mentioned Kant) actually wrote books like the Critique of Pure Reason and the Critique of Practical Reason. He also then wrote one criticizing judgement, probably so people didn't think that he was saying reason was useless.
I would highly recommend reading the above texts if you genuinely want to delve into the subject. They're a decent starting point for thinking about this stuff. There is no real answer anyone's come up with, you're not wrong to think what you think, but to me part of the psychedelic experience is realizing the truth of those books/ideas.
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scragins



Registered: 04/20/16
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia
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Quote:
Psychogenic said: That is bullshit! The main objections science has is answering why we exist and how the universe works. Technology is a spin off and is only based on scientific principles. They do admit they don't have many answers regarding morals, but there are valid theories. Science has answers to almost everything, but there are still many questions to be answered that eventually will be! Science should be highly respected!!
Settle down kid. This is just your opinion, most users on the shroomery are intelligent people that think independently. Don't try to push your opinion on others.
-------------------- Be the change you wish to see in this world
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healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Psychogenic said: That is bullshit! The main objections science has is answering why we exist and how the universe works. Technology is a spin off and is only based on scientific principles. They do admit they don't have many answers regarding morals, but there are valid theories. Science has answers to almost everything, but there are still many questions to be answered that eventually will be! Science should be highly respected!!
No, you misunderstood. Science does not attempt to answer the question, "For what purpose do we exist?" it attempts to answer the question, "How did we come to exist?"
This is the same basic distinction I was talking about in my earlier post. Science does not deal in the ineffable. If it cannot be observed and quantified, it is outside the purview of science. Science is not the end all be all of systematized knowledge. Science is intentionally limited in scope.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
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YeOlde
Stranger

Registered: 04/19/14
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Re: Question [Re: logikal]
#23386456 - 06/27/16 03:00 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
logikal said:
Personal anecdote here, but psychs helped me get out of a lifelong "depression." They showed me that no amount of reason will make me happy, and that pure reason is absolutely ridiculous. I was a follower of science before, to my own demise really. Now I love science for what it gives, but I know that it is useless, if not detrimental, when worshiped as a deity. Psychs help people see something higher and greater than anything that humans can control, science says that everything can be controlled if we know the variables (disregard quantum physics for that, you know what I mean).
I know nothing of McKenna but I really enjoyed reading your post, especially the bit I quoted from you there. That's EXACTLY how LSD has made me feel about life too. For someone who turned there back on believing in Christianity, I always felt a void afterwards.
I still don't believe in any of it at all but that doesn't mean it hasn't wounded me. Living life with the feeling of no purpose.
LSD made me realise though that I already have purpose and that true satisfaction is false. Our purpose is the gift of our existence, to be human is to have the gift of consciousness for a short period of time. Very few things apart from us hold this quality in the universe (That we know of) and so it made me realise just how much of a gift life is and it's purpose is connected to it's preciousness.
If we really can appreciate that fact, well then we've got a feeling of completion and satisfaction.
You should post more around here it was good to interact with you
-------------------- My Psychedelic experiences: LSD - 30+ times (2 hits min / max 3 hits) every time. Shrooms - 4 times (2.5 - 3.5g) DMT - 5 times (Powerful breakthrough only once) Life can be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow so I chose acid instead -YeOlde
Edited by YeOlde (06/27/16 03:04 AM)
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Crixalis
Wobble Master



Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 522
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Quote:
scragins said: Scientific views change all the time.
At one point; We were the centre of the universe and everything revolved around us. The earth was flat. Go too far and you'll fall off the edge.
Now we are discovering quantum physics, how our conscious dictates the 'state' of things, and shit may not even be real.
Who knows? In 500 years, the world DMT brings us to may be 'scientifically proven' to be the true nature of things.
You are absolutely correct.
This is how i've come to see it.
-------------------- Bring the right vibes. Express yourself. Be open. Be crazy. But spread your beautiful love light. Things are gonna get wonky.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Quote:
Psychogenic said: I want to believe DMT may tune the brain into "another reality Channel", but it is too hard to believe. I have never even seen entities on a psychedelic experience,
Well that sucks for you because I have, and not even on DMT. I don't even want to believe it but I do.
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