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Repertoire89
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The omnipotence of violence 1
#23382311 - 06/25/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Every breath draws in organisms which our bodies consume, our skin and our blood consume and assimilate our surroundings. Every step you take, every slight movement, crushes and ripples out the microscopic.
Plants, insects, animals. Living and covered with the living.
To simply exist in this world is an act of aggression, even suicide would deliver countless organisms within the body and without it.
Where do you draw the line with violence? In killing loved ones? The "immoral"? The unknown? The threat? Other species? Certain species? Only plants and the unseen?
I find the idea genuinely confounding, that we exist on the conquest of our surroundings and cannot exist otherwise. Life and death are interconnected, inseparable for even a moment.
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VeryStrangeMan
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When you 1st - WANT, 2nd take - it is violence, intentional harm for ones own greed.
If you happen to take unintentionally - just a natural pattern.
Plants happen to root into soil and live peacefully without fear of death being much of an issue. Animals that hunt - they kill,fear comes back and they run. Human kills all, builds a house and uses a lock. Human is scared of dying all the time, being unable to cope with reality they lock all of fear and disgust for slaughtering away in subconsciousness, they live numb until acid kicks in and they realize all of it only when practicing art of dying.
VIolence is not escapable. Even if an animal would self sacrifice for you to eat it - violence in harmony would stay, because that is one real violent love.
I try to feed mosquitos. To pay off small part of debt. Hope it helps.
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DividedQuantum
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Indeed, there is no choice for a living being other than to be a killer. Death is everywhere at all times. It is unavoidable. Perhaps this has to do with the doctrine of original sin. Great post, btw.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Thanatos10
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For something to live other things must die. Such is life. In nature its those best able to adapt who survive. Humans just happened to do it better than other animals.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Perhaps this has to do with the doctrine of original sin.
Interesting idea, I think it also ties into the innate corruption of man, and at the same time - our immersion in violence guarantees this corruption. Many mystics and religious people acknowledge their own inevitable corruption, with varying solutions usually tied into living through a higher purpose (karma yoga as in the B-Gita being a concise example).
These two conjoined topics (omnipotence of violence & corruption) have been major focal points of my consciousness the past year. Its all very surreal.
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DividedQuantum
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Very interesting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Perhaps this has to do with the doctrine of original sin.
Interesting idea, I think it also ties into the innate corruption of man, and at the same time - our immersion in violence guarantees this corruption. Many mystics and religious people acknowledge their own inevitable corruption, with varying solutions usually tied into living through a higher purpose (karma yoga as in the B-Gita being a concise example).
These two conjoined topics (omnipotence of violence & corruption) have been major focal points of my consciousness the past year. Its all very surreal.
It's nothing fanciful like "original sin" or corruption, it's just nature. A good deal of life lives at the expense of other ones. Those who can keep up die out.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Thanatos10]
#23384545 - 06/26/16 04:12 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I tried to make this short, but its an abstract concept.
Regarding original sin, that is an Abrahamic concept being interpreted from a distance.
Corruption on the other hand is more relevant to my own views, it is natural, and we all partake of it. From dark thoughts to petty indiscretions, even making a flute or running the power on a computer comes at the expense of something else. I do not think it is possible for one to exist in this world without willingly contradicting empathy.
Corruption refers to "negativity", however minuscule. There is a balance somewhere between positivity and negativity, which I view as desirable for social / emotional / spiritual reasons, but I do not think it is possible to exist in this world without some indulgence in negativity.
Again, even running a computer comes at the expense of something, as it consumes power / resources. This is in excess of basic necessity. To completely remove any excess movements from one's life is not even worth considering, and all excess comes at the expense of something else.
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Bozko
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"Original sin" may just refer to the act of deciding what "corruption" is. The tree eve ate from conferred knowledge of "good and evil".
If god/existence is truly omnipotent, all things must serve a purpose. Even things alien to what we know as good.
To think we could know the difference between what is good and evil is to assume we can think as god, which seems like hubris and leads to inner turmoil.
2 cents
-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23384581 - 06/26/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bozko said: "Original sin" may just refer to the act of deciding what "corruption" is. The tree eve ate from conferred knowledge of "good and evil".
If god/existence is truly omnipotent, all things must serve a purpose. Even things alien to what we know as good.
To think we could know the difference between what is good and evil is to assume we can think as god, which seems like hubris and leads to inner turmoil.
2 cents 
I agree.
Funnily enough, your last statement can well be the idea behind why "knowledge" of "good and evil" was considered the root of sin. Knowledge leading to hubris, giving the illusion of separating us from the "beasts".
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Bozko
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I took 200 mics last night and outta everyone I was with the dogs and cats made the most sense.
-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23384639 - 06/26/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think you can replace most words people speak with incoherent grunting, with nothing lost.
There's a documentary about chimpanzees I really want to watch tripping for this reason, their behavior is so similar to our own, but without the trappings.
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Bozko
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That makes me think of that Altered States movie, where the main character regresses into this simian form from using psychedelics and isolation tanks.
I kinda intuit that to live in a more natural state is to be closer to the godhead, but what is that worth in the end? That is probably why plants are so tongue-tied.
-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23384703 - 06/26/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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My own interpretation of distance to the "godhead" is different, a plant or person may be part of the whole, and tied to it, but conscious awareness of and communion with the "godhead" is another thing altogether.
Even that is only a beginning, as I see things.
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Bozko
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Maybe to be succinctly a simple thing and nothing more resembles a direct relationship with the godhead than any religious or philosophical relationship to a "higher" whatever.
Fractals come to mind. Eventually simplicity births complexity. Children and the extremely intoxicated sometimes say the things that really make me wonder about the universe as I know it.
-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I tried to make this short, but its an abstract concept.
Regarding original sin, that is an Abrahamic concept being interpreted from a distance.
Corruption on the other hand is more relevant to my own views, it is natural, and we all partake of it. From dark thoughts to petty indiscretions, even making a flute or running the power on a computer comes at the expense of something else. I do not think it is possible for one to exist in this world without willingly contradicting empathy.
Corruption refers to "negativity", however minuscule. There is a balance somewhere between positivity and negativity, which I view as desirable for social / emotional / spiritual reasons, but I do not think it is possible to exist in this world without some indulgence in negativity.
Again, even running a computer comes at the expense of something, as it consumes power / resources. This is in excess of basic necessity. To completely remove any excess movements from one's life is not even worth considering, and all excess comes at the expense of something else.
It's not even with excess like computers or cars. Nearly all things live at the expense of something else. Prey living means the predator doesn't eat. Plants compete for space and sunlight, and animals compete for mates. It's the struggle to survive. It is impossible to live otherwise.
To me empathy is really only meant for humans so they don't consume each other so quickly. Seems to have little use in the natural world.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23384809 - 06/26/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bozko said: Maybe to be succinctly a simple thing and nothing more resembles a direct relationship with the godhead than any religious or philosophical relationship to a "higher" whatever.
Fractals come to mind. Eventually simplicity births complexity. Children and the extremely intoxicated sometimes say the things that really make me wonder about the universe as I know it.
I disagree, but this isn't something one can easily find a middle ground on.
I've had many out of body experiences, many in a directly "religious" perspective. When someone says "godhead" I think of the core of these experiences, an actual thing / experience, not an idea. The further one evolves their mind, the more patterns and curves, the more surface area to be illuminated. In a very literal sense, not metaphorical at all.
Stripping away the illusions, seeing beyond "ego" is imperative, but the ego is a tool - not a cage. Character, culture, experience, stories; give shape and meaning to poetry. Yet poetry and music, hint at that which is beyond form. The substance of a tone may be pure music, but the interaction of tones gives further depth to the experience of music.
Of course I am only trying to explain my perspective, from what I've learned and experienced. It is difficult to describe this idea briefly, so I apologize for the length of this post.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Thanatos10]
#23384831 - 06/26/16 05:40 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
It's not even with excess like computers or cars. Nearly all things live at the expense of something else. Prey living means the predator doesn't eat. Plants compete for space and sunlight, and animals compete for mates. It's the struggle to survive. It is impossible to live otherwise.
To me empathy is really only meant for humans so they don't consume each other so quickly. Seems to have little use in the natural world.
Yet co-operation is as much of a keystone in life as violence, it is not difficult to find an instance of interspecial empathy. Animals may save the life of another, adopt another, feed another, without gain and without involvement of man.
I believe empathy is natural and critical, positivity as unavoidable as negativity.
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Bozko
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#23384870 - 06/26/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
It's not even with excess like computers or cars. Nearly all things live at the expense of something else. Prey living means the predator doesn't eat. Plants compete for space and sunlight, and animals compete for mates. It's the struggle to survive. It is impossible to live otherwise.
To me empathy is really only meant for humans so they don't consume each other so quickly. Seems to have little use in the natural world.
Yet co-operation is as much of a keystone in life as violence, it is not difficult to find an instance of interspecial empathy. Animals may save the life of another, adopt another, feed another, without gain and without involvement of man.
I believe empathy is natural and critical, positivity as unavoidable as negativity.
Yet they also so readily kill the very same creatures they take in. Such instances of empathy are more the exception than the rule. Cooperation is an occurance in life, but it's usually among the same species. Also I doubt that the ones that occur across species are based on the actual spirit of cooperation and more just adaptation.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Thanatos10] 1
#23385315 - 06/26/16 07:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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We'll have to disagree on that point, my observations indicate near equal parts empathy and violence.
Speculating on the meaning of either is beyond the means of a mortal imo As it is, I'm not going to argue as to why anything expresses empathy, only that it does
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Penelope_Tree
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Repertoire89] 1
#23385563 - 06/26/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Glad to see you still here and posting thoughtfully as always 
This reminds me heavily of the Buddhist tradition to which I was first introduced. To try and wrap it up succinctly, every being with which you come in contact (be it plant, animal, human, spirit/god) is a reflection of yourself. It is therefore noble to not cause further suffering because we all know that suffering sucks. IIRC, most devout Buddhists are vegetarian for this reason.
It was never discussed openly in my sangha, but I think taken to the logical conclusion, in some cases, "violence" would be permissable, if it were to decrease suffering. Say, euthanizing an individual who was in incurable and horrendous pain. I don't think that is "violent" in the same sense that most would consider that term, but the OP mentions killing, so it is a notable counterexample.
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said: We'll have to disagree on that point, my observations indicate near equal parts empathy and violence.
Speculating on the meaning of either is beyond the means of a mortal imo As it is, I'm not going to argue as to why anything expresses empathy, only that it does
It would seem so, because my observations show more violence than empathy.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: Glad to see you still here and posting thoughtfully as always 
This reminds me heavily of the Buddhist tradition to which I was first introduced. To try and wrap it up succinctly, every being with which you come in contact (be it plant, animal, human, spirit/god) is a reflection of yourself. It is therefore noble to not cause further suffering because we all know that suffering sucks. IIRC, most devout Buddhists are vegetarian for this reason.
It was never discussed openly in my sangha, but I think taken to the logical conclusion, in some cases, "violence" would be permissable, if it were to decrease suffering. Say, euthanizing an individual who was in incurable and horrendous pain. I don't think that is "violent" in the same sense that most would consider that term, but the OP mentions killing, so it is a notable counterexample.
Hey you

I agree with that aspect of Hinduism / Buddhism, extending life and consciousness to all organisms, and the interconnection of life / consciousness. Both from logical deduction and OBE's which indicated as much
Finding a balance in regard to violence is difficult, especially considering where one draws their ethics, whether contrived from empathy + logic, spiritual experiences, or religion.
Sometimes I wonder if it matters at all, viewing all things as living and conscious, what difference is there between killing a man or a cow? Generally I think there is a difference.
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Penelope_Tree
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I think killing isn't necessarily violent... Think of euthanasia vs murder. One is done without consent; the other is done with consent. There is definitely a difference there. Maybe that is what you are picking up on.
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Snazz
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Yep. There are subtleties to the English language, and violence doesn't fit. Etymology:
Violare (latin) used in words like violate
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Repertoire89
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Yet we're immersed in unconsenting violence, from the food we eat, to the microorganisms we unconsciously assimilate.
Consenting death is extremely rare
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RJ Tubs 202


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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
To simply exist in this world is an act of aggression . . .
That lives come to an end is not "bad"
Change is not "bad"
Impermanence is not "bad"
Notice how humans deem the end of something as "bad", such as a relationship
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23406019 - 07/03/16 03:07 AM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why assume that aggression is bad?
I agree with what you're saying in an overarching way, but not practically, from the perspective of an individual - being flayed is certainly a bad thing.
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RJ Tubs 202


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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Why assume that aggression is bad?
True
I spent the day yesterday with 3 Buddhist monks who don't eat meat. But they eat plants.
Not sure why some make a distinction. "I won't eat animals but will eat plants"
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Penelope_Tree
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23407326 - 07/03/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Why assume that aggression is bad?
True
I spent the day yesterday with 3 Buddhist monks who don't eat meat. But they eat plants.
Not sure why some make a distinction. "I won't eat animals but will eat plants"
Did you ask them why? I'm sure they would have been open to having a conversation with you about it.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 1
#23407426 - 07/03/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: True
I spent the day yesterday with 3 Buddhist monks who don't eat meat. But they eat plants.
Not sure why some make a distinction. "I won't eat animals but will eat plants"
Generally I avoid eating meat, and keep my diet mostly vegan.
The reasoning in my case, is that while all life is sentient, more evolved lifeforms have more evolved consciousness. The more complex the mind, the more corners to be illuminated by feelings good or bad. Essentially I take the view that more intelligent life forms have a greater capacity to suffer, by being more aware of the subtleties of their pain and suffering.
That isn't to negate the pain of a plant, and does not extend between humans of more or less intelligence, the spectrum is broad. Not sure if it was a Tibetan Buddhist or Sant Mat practitioner who brought up this idea, but it makes sense to me.
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Bozko
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Has anyone here read Douglas Hofstadter? He wrote GEB.
His conclusion is that people usually attach the concept of a "soul" to anything with a sufficiently complex nervous system that it can perceive itself, and avoid damaging organisms which have these systems.
This interpretation of the world has interesting things to suggest about abortion, vegetarianism etc.
-------------------- ShadeOfDeepPurple said: I guess you don't get shamanism yet by the very fact that you describe a psychedelic as Mexican.
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Repertoire89
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23407452 - 07/03/16 02:55 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not familiar with him, but that's a very similar idea to my last post.
The main difference is I don't believe anything can exist without being living, as the material world is an extension of consciousness. So the colors and lines one perceives, are projections of their mind, part of the mind, and technically themselves as much as an arm or a leg.
But the crux of the idea is the same as my last post (in practical terms, not literal): differentiating value between complex and simple organisms.
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Penelope_Tree
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Re: The omnipotence of violence [Re: Bozko]
#23407465 - 07/03/16 03:01 PM (7 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bozko said: Has anyone here read Douglas Hofstadter? He wrote GEB.
His conclusion is that people usually attach the concept of a "soul" to anything with a sufficiently complex nervous system that it can perceive itself, and avoid damaging organisms which have these systems.
This interpretation of the world has interesting things to suggest about abortion, vegetarianism etc.
Haven't read GEB yet, but it's been on my list for years.
I think, at least partially, this reasoning comes from the Sanskrit term Ātman, which means soul/breath/self. If one takes it literally that breath = soul, then it would make sense to ascribe a soul to being with a breath, like those who has a nervous system. Ergo, it would be undesirable to kill a breathing being.
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