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Offlinepsilojoe
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Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience
    #23379780 - 06/25/16 05:43 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Listen here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDCNo3URuhA

In this podcast Max and Cyb offer a sharp critique of neuroscientific research into psychedelic drugs, arguing that this research project lacks explanatory power and practical (ie altered state) relevance.

In particular the recent neuroscientific research from Robin Carhart-Harris of Imperial College London.

Topics covered include: Materialist assumptions behind neuroscience, The prominence of materialism, Methodological limitations of neuroscience (MRI scanners) in light of the sheer complexity of brain matter, Explanatory power of neuroscience - claims vs. reality, Neuroscience compared to cognitive science, De-emphasis of subjective phenomenology by neuroscience, objectivity of scientific theories, Misleading conflation of neurophysics with cognitive phenomenology in Carhart-Harris' research, Comparing blobs of colour on images of brains, The explanatory role of the 'Default-Mode-Network' in Carhart-Harris research, Literal (physical) instantiation of cognitive models (materialist literalism), Overlap of neuroscience research with psychotherapeutic concerns (such as treating depression), Negative attitudes towards "recreational" drug use among scientific researchers, Amanda Fielding's involvement with psychedelic research, and her negative attitudes towards Tim Leary and drug users in the 1960's, Professor David Nutt's role in neuroscience research and his previous work with the British government, Lack of practical (altered-state) relevance of psychedelic neuroscience, Static rudimentary nature of neuroscience, research, lack of consideration for transforming mental worldmodels over multiple psychedelic sessions, Serotonergism of psychedelic drugs (affinity for 5-HT2 receptors), Complications of legal scientific access to otherwise illegal substances, Marketable pop-gloss of current neuroscience research.


Edited by psilojoe (06/25/16 09:10 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: psilojoe]
    #23380051 - 06/25/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I will be very interested to listen to this when I have time, especially this bit
Quote:

Negative attitudes towards "recreational" drug use among scientific researchers,


which I have tried to explore a bit on these boards.
Is a shame you cannot put down a review of your own about this talk?

I know maxfreakout from psychonaut.com We very much didn't agree when he was trying to claim that we are like computers, and how the leading psychological philosophy (?) is computationalism. I am all against that sht

But it is good to know that the 'experts in psychedelic research' are having their going-about-things to do with psychedelics critiqued and questioned

but yeah, what do you think?

#ps re-edit and put the video url on again as it hasn't created a video embed


Edited by zzripz (06/25/16 08:49 AM)


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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: zzripz]
    #23380120 - 06/25/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Negative attitudes towards "recreational" drug use among scientific researchers




This ^ is a very important topic, it relates more to psychedelic psychotherapy than neuroscience so we will be covering it in more depth in a future episode when we address psychotherapy, however Carhart-Harris has expressed the sentiment that recreational psychedelic use is wrong.

We are systematically running through each of the pop-psychedelia paradigms in turn (see episode 3 for more details), showing how each one falls victim to prohibitionist logic and other unconscious assumptions. This episode is all about neuroscience. Episode 4 was about Martin Ball's Entheological Paradigm. In each case, we are comparing these pop-psychedelic ideas to the ego death theory (religion = metaphor describing entheogenic loose cognition revealing determinism via control-loss bad trip ego death experience)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: psilojoe]
    #23380727 - 06/25/16 12:34 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

so do you advise me to start at part 1 so I can follow the thread of it all better?


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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: zzripz]
    #23381636 - 06/25/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
so do you advise me to start at part 1 so I can follow the thread of it all better?




If you have the patience and inclination, this ^ would be ideal. But it isnt necessary, i posted here about the neuroscience as a standalone topic.


This podcast comes largely as a result of this thread by Michael Hoffman: - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/conversations/topics/6523


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: psilojoe]
    #23382948 - 06/26/16 04:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilojoe said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
so do you advise me to start at part 1 so I can follow the thread of it all better?




If you have the patience and inclination, this ^ would be ideal. But it isnt necessary, i posted here about the neuroscience as a standalone topic.


This podcast comes largely as a result of this thread by Michael Hoffman: - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/conversations/topics/6523




I am wondering your position about things psilojoe. Do you believe in 'ego death'? What does it mean to you that term?
I have read some of Michael Hoffman but tended to find some of his terminology  a bit mechanistic-sounding (what's happened to him btw?)


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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: zzripz]
    #23383018 - 06/26/16 05:17 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I am wondering your position about things psilojoe. Do you believe in 'ego death'?




Ego death (thinking that one has died during a strong psychedelic trip) is a fairly common experience among psychedelic explorers, so it would make no sense to say "i don't believe in ego death". There are many trip reports on the internet that clearly describe the phenomenon of ego death, such as the following:

From a Salvia Divinorum trip report - "I realized that I was me, or that I had been and wasn't anymore and the first crystallized human thought came to me... I DIED. " (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60646)

From a mushroom trip report - "What gave the convincing final touches to my 'departure' into the realms of death, was my boston terrier. He was behaving very strangely. He was whining and staring right at me the entire first half of the experience. Which confirmed the eerie feeling that my dog 'knew' I was 'dying'. This in turn formed a strong bond between me and my dog. He cuddled against me (whining)while I 'died'." (From here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409)

From an LSD trip report - " I was being welcomed into the circle. Insanity was a network. I didn’t want to be a part of but it was too late. Then I “realized” I wasn’t insane but “dead”" (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=43800)


Not believing in ego death would be like not believing in sexual orgasm, ie senseless and naive.

Quote:

zzripz said:
What does it mean to you that term?




The term "ego death" essentially refers to the experience of "dying" in the intense altered state, like in the trip reports i posted above.

But Michael Hoffman has developed a theory of ego death (www.egodeath.com), which offers a far more robust and meaningful definition of what "ego death" is.

According to the ego death theory, the term "ego death" refers to a transformation in the mental worldmodel (the mind's model of time and control-agency) from possibilism to eternalism.

The pre-initiation mind believes that its lifetime is shaped like a tree (multiple possible futures = possibilism), until the world-shattering insane psychedelic ego death revelation shows that lifetime is actually shaped like a snake (single eternally existing future = eternalism).


Quote:

zzripz said:
I have read some of Michael Hoffman but tended to find some of his terminology  a bit mechanistic-sounding (what's happened to him btw?)




Michael Hoffman posts every day to his yahoo site: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/egodeath/) with ongoing theory-development. The aim of the Transcendent Knowledge Podcast is to critically deconstruct pop-culture from the point of view of the ego death theory (the paradigm of metaphorical entheogenic eternalism).


Edited by psilojoe (06/26/16 08:22 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Critical Deconstruction of Psychedelic Neuroscience [Re: psilojoe]
    #23383431 - 06/26/16 09:29 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The pre-initiation mind believes that its lifetime is shaped like a tree (multiple possible futures = possibilism), until the world-shattering insane psychedelic ego death revelation shows that lifetime is actually shaped like a snake (single eternally existing future = eternalism).




That inspired me to search that term and his name and for first ever time I have seen him, in this video where he is 'explaining' this. But I am gonna be very honest about my impression. For a start he seems disturbed. His body language, how he talks, his incoherent presentation is not good, and is not inspiring--for me anyhow, to take what he is saying seriously!

If we are talking Trees and Snakes, these images as you know go way back, and are prepatriarchal images. The Tree was the bearer of the Fruit of Truth (psychedelics) and the Serpent was its guardian, and also associated with the Goddess, and/or her son/lover, and with the very magic mushrooms themselves, and also symbolized immortality. NOT the meaning the patriarchal myths gave to it which was of heroes living everlastingly, but rather the ecstatic insight that nature, and we who are nature are eternal via the eternal spiral-serpentine changes of nature. The serpent sloughed its skin and has new skin underneath so symbolized this. We are born, grow old and die, and the mystery of what we are apart of regenerates and so it goes. The patriarchal mindset does not like this and wants rather a very superficial control even over 'death' as though 'death' is divorced from the dynamic of life



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