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Offlinefuzzysig
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Registered: 10/21/11
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capitalism is wrong
    #23377850 - 06/24/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I grew up in Russia

and every time I hear about capitalism it feels wrong to me

I'm listening to jim rohn
and he says
johhny mows the lawn and gets 5 dollars for it
johhny figures out he can hire someone else to do it
johhny collects 5 dollars and pays a dollar or two to the kid who did the job and keeps 3 for getting the business.

this is pretty much the basic idea behind every business

I don't know why it doesn't sit well with me
I feel like its taking advantage of the kid who did the job..


anyone come from another country and have or had similar issue?
I cant seem to get over this idea that its wrong
I feel like when I make more money I'm taking it from someone else
like investing in stocks. owning a business, selling products
pretty much anything for profit.


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InvisibleEminence
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Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA Flag
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: fuzzysig]
    #23377858 - 06/24/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Capitalism is the best system. The people who you as being "taken advantage of" often have the same opportunity, but whine instead of change themselves. People hate capitalism until they find a way to get rich.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Eminence]
    #23377908 - 06/24/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Fuzzy, I have shared that feeling. Basically the world is not ready to work together, and the idea of helping someone makes people feel like they're being used.
So ideas like (true) communism: "society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs."
Means no rich elites, and that's what most people strive to attain, money and power. It's an ego trap, that capitalism is.

Facts remain:
Money is not necessary in any way, in the future it won't exist.
You do not need to work to live; needing to work to live is just another form of slavery.
Capitalism exploits human beings, not only in their own country but many others.
Capitalism commonly puts profit above health, safety, & life.

Capitalism is likely the worst possible system because it's existence DEPENDS on infinite growth on a finite planet, any 3 year old child can see why this is silly.
So we are led by the least among us. Better ideas have been presented but people aren't mature or intelligent or foresighted enough to accept or understand them.

Far into the future they will look back on the idea of capitalism much like we look back on ideas like slavery or religious persecution.

Just do what you can. :lol:


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleEminence
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Loc: Richmond, VA Flag
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23377982 - 06/24/16 04:12 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

That's true that you shouldn't need to work to live, but that's why I think people should have the right to find land that they could share with other people and trade, volunteer, all that stuff without having to work for an employer or pay taxes, but when people complain that someone built a business and they're mad that guy is driving a lambo as a result of taking financial risks and all the other risks that come with building a successful business, it's stupid. If you want the fruits of others' labor, then you SHOULD work for it. If you don't want to work to live, then learn to build, garden, hunt and farm on your own. Everyone should have basic human rights with no work, but so many people I've talked to who don't like capitalism are the same poor people who daydream about having all these nice things that you just don't get without capitalism. I swear a lot of anti-capitalists are just potential capitalists that don't work to make their dreams come true, so they complain about rich people.


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Eminence]
    #23378243 - 06/24/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
I swear a lot of anti-capitalists are just potential capitalists that don't work to make their dreams come true, so they complain about rich people.



That is likely true in some cases.
However in this particular case, myself as one of the anti-capitalists, I just see the utter foolishness and lacking logic of the entire system, so I can't support it.
Allow me to reiterate, Capitalism depends on infinite growth on a finite planet. Thus, is will kill the planet and that includes all the rich people who worked so hard for all their green paper. The majority of rich people not only took 0 financial risks, but their money was 100% inheritance, Trump is one of these. The money he got from his dad made him who he is today, he earned nothing. Mathematically speaking, Trump would have several billion dollars more than he has now, if he sat on a couch and ate chips for the last 30 years, every move he has made and ever risk he has taken has ate away at his money pile. Doing nothing would have been an amazing business choice for him. :lol: Even his campaign is nearing bankruptcy, and he has 4 or 5 other bankruptcies.


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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InvisibleEminence
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Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
Loc: Richmond, VA Flag
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Tmethyl]
    #23378362 - 06/24/16 06:23 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Look, I'm a little bit worn out when it comes to shutting down that argument about him, the fact is it's down to Hillary or Trump, and I choose who isn't an anti Christ witch. Don't make this about personal political choices, this about an economic system. You were already butt hurt enough to leave me a 0 just because you saw my title. I get it.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Eminence]
    #23378375 - 06/24/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Eminence said:
That's true that you shouldn't need to work to live, but that's why I think people should have the right to find land that they could share with other people and trade, volunteer, all that stuff without having to work for an employer or pay taxes, but when people complain that someone built a business and they're mad that guy is driving a lambo as a result of taking financial risks and all the other risks that come with building a successful business, it's stupid. If you want the fruits of others' labor, then you SHOULD work for it. If you don't want to work to live, then learn to build, garden, hunt and farm on your own. Everyone should have basic human rights with no work, but so many people I've talked to who don't like capitalism are the same poor people who daydream about having all these nice things that you just don't get without capitalism. I swear a lot of anti-capitalists are just potential capitalists that don't work to make their dreams come true, so they complain about rich people.





the problem here is that land falls under the "rule" of capitalistic governments.  only in rare circumstances is land turned over by a government, and more often the reverse is true: persons/families turning a trust of land over to a local/county/state entity.


if land were free, or even reasonably priced, and of good quality (unpolluted; ample, clean h2o, etc...) then certainly an alternative within capitalism could exist.


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channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleEminence
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Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 16,623
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: demiu5]
    #23378395 - 06/24/16 06:36 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah I understand that. I acknowledge there's problems within all systems. There needs to be a good balance I think, but I'm not gonna pretend I know how to go about makin that happen. :shrug:


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Eminence]
    #23378801 - 06/24/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I think we need to review what capaitalism is...

From google;

Quote:

cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
synonyms: free enterprise, private enterprise, the free market; enterprise culture
"the capitalism of emerging nations"





It has nothing specifically to do with greed, exploitation, infinite growth...

Greed, exploitation and increasing expectations are inherent to life and not unique to any system.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: fuzzysig]
    #23381639 - 06/25/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fuzzysig said:
I grew up in Russia

and every time I hear about capitalism it feels wrong to me

I'm listening to jim rohn
and he says
johhny mows the lawn and gets 5 dollars for it
johhny figures out he can hire someone else to do it
johhny collects 5 dollars and pays a dollar or two to the kid who did the job and keeps 3 for getting the business.

this is pretty much the basic idea behind every business

I don't know why it doesn't sit well with me
I feel like its taking advantage of the kid who did the job..


anyone come from another country and have or had similar issue?
I cant seem to get over this idea that its wrong
I feel like when I make more money I'm taking it from someone else
like investing in stocks. owning a business, selling products
pretty much anything for profit.




So you are a communist, of course you see a problem with anyone making mone working.  What kid did what job?  Here we have child labor laws.

You feel like blah blah blah.  Listen, we work for a living, that's what we do.  If you don't like it, sorry to say, go back to Russia and do what they do in Russia.  Here we labor, get paid, maybe we make a few bucks investing in a house.

You know what, I'm gonna say it, fuck your socialistic communistic attitudes.  Get lost.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 422
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23381975 - 06/25/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

lunar eclipse u a retard.

I said I grew up in Russia and now have conflicting beliefs.
its stuck in my head to feel guilty when I have a lot and others don't. even when I worked for it.
I want to get rid of it because its keeping me poor.
I'm trying to understand where it comes from and why I still have that idiotic belief.

this should bein psychology section now that I think about it


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Offlinepmcast
Coaster
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Registered: 09/26/12
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: fuzzysig]
    #23382012 - 06/25/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

There's nothing wrong with capitalism. Capitalism is just a means for distributing goods. It's a fairly efficient means of distributing goods. So efficient that it gives rise to greed. That's the issue. Honesltly I don't think it's political. I think it's psychological.


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InvisibleBigfeely123
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/15 Happy 9th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 2,594
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: fuzzysig]
    #23384883 - 06/26/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You're tripping bro. Wait until you fall back down to reality to comment on this subject. I'm not going to say degrading things to you, call you names, or tell you to go back to Russia, that's not good for me to do so. But let me ask you this... why should you feel guilty that you have possessions and money that you have worked hard for to earn when a homeless man has nothing because he does nothing all day.

If  the homeless man got off his lazy butt and put down the bottle and/or pipe (I think it's safe to assume that most homeless people are homeless because of some kind of substance abuse) he'd have money too but it's his choice to not do anything. Therefore he earns nothing. If you have money to get rid of, give it to me... I'd gladly take it. JK. I'd feel bad doing so but I probably would if you insisted. Actually I can't say I would... IDK, the situation is not right in front of me.

Make that bank and fucking feel good about it, remember, you fucking earned it. I guess you could say that the homeless man earned what he has now because of him doing nothing. Therefore he has nothing. That's life. It will never change.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Bigfeely123]
    #23387081 - 06/27/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Capitalism without socialism is fascism
Socialism without capitalism is communism

You need the two to balance each other out.

But yes, sociocracy is the answer.


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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Asante]
    #23388864 - 06/27/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

That is too simplistic and flies in the face of facts.  I can think of three obvious fascist societies:  Early 20th century Germany, Italy and Spain.  All had socialized industry and thus none fit your definition.  The definition of fascism doesn't generally include an economic system.  It is more about a belligerent nationalism, intolerance/racism/xenophobia and a respect for power, authority and force.

Communism is not as well defined and has taken on different meanings since its inception.  But the general view is that it has both a closed economic and political system.  This is why socialists that support democracy were keen on distinguishing themselves from communism in the early 20th century.  They branded themselves as democratic socialists to reassure those in the first world that even though they wanted a closed economic system, they wanted an open political system.

If your point is that a healthy society has both elements of socialism and capitalism in it then I think that is a no brainier.  Just about every country on earth has both.  Countries that we in the US glibly call socialist, like Nordic countries, are in fact market economies with private industry.  Countries that get attacked as capitalist, like the US or UK, do in fact have many nationalized trade and industries.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: DieCommie]
    #23389388 - 06/27/16 10:35 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, we have "social" "security" here in the US. Pretty sure that was FDR's socialistic contribution to America, and we still fight over it existing, because we want it.


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OfflineGPryder
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Registered: 02/12/16
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Last seen: 11 months, 14 days
Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: Penelope_Tree] * 1
    #23396133 - 06/30/16 01:10 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

A couple jobs ago I was producing "decorations" or some stupid crap for a company.

All the supplies came from China, dirt cheap. Total cost to the company was under $6 per unit, and my time at $10 an hour running it through the $150,000 machine to finish the product. I could make 3 a minute or about 2100 per day. The company then sold them for $59.99 + shipping. Couldn't make enough of them, always running out of stock.

So basically, I was making $130,000 worth of merchandise out of $12,000 worth of supplies and am somehow supposed to believe $120 a day before taxes is the most they can pay me or anyone else to do that job. I'm sure they could have easily paid me $240 a day and still made a hefty profit. Only difference is I would have had a real standard of living for once. The race to the bottom is more important.

The stuff I was making didn't even have the highest profit margin in the place either LOL :P

I'm sure someone could say "Well then if its so easy why don't you go out and do it,", but its not easy because only people that already have money can start a business like that. Morally, I wouldn't run a business that way either. If I'm going to overcharge for something, it'll be domestically produced and I'll happily live without a 80+% profit margin. I wouldn't crawl to China or some other foreign country to exploit cheap labor and settle for low quality materials.
And good luck getting a business loan unless you're already a millionaire after 2008. I've tried. Was forced to self fund an automotive business until I ran dry and closed up.

Capitalism can definitely use some tweaks in favor of the workers if its not going to be thrown out entirely. Whose going to buy all the junk capitalism produces once the 1% have 100% of the money instead of just most of it?


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Edited by GPryder (06/30/16 01:14 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: GPryder]
    #23397099 - 06/30/16 10:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

:kaneclap:


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Omnicyclion.org
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Offlinequetzel
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: fuzzysig] * 1
    #23497098 - 07/31/16 09:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Capitalism is a horribly flawed system when it is scaled up and allowed to run without any checks.  The distribution of wealth is absurdly one sided and labor is typically negatively exploited.

Communism, well we don't really know since there never was a communist country.  Only socialist dictatorships.

Capitalism has one horrible gaping flaw, which fortunately is now coming into play and that is a capitalist system which can't grow at 3% is one that soon dies.

The question has always been, should the capitalists hold the means of the production and do whatever they want with them, or should the government hold the means of production in the name of the people.  Well, turns out both options suck.

The new economy has a simple and elegant solution.  Mainly, no one owns the means of production. 

Insanity you say?  Well no, not really.  This model has been in place for several decades.  For the first decade I listened to the bullshit opinions of why the new economy would never work and how it would fail.  For the next decade I listened to bullshit opinions on how it couldn't make it in the physical world.

How does the new economy work?  Well, lets use Uber as an example.  Uber is an evil piece of shit.  It's innovative but it takes 20% off the top of it's hard working subcontractor whatever the fucks they are drivers.  So, now Uber goes up against the establishment, ie crooked politicians colluding with cab companies and gets sued non-stop.  Eventually the legal fees bury them. 

No problem.  A programmer decides, hey I can do that with a decentralized model that governments can't shut down short of arresting everyone.  Think Bittorrent vs Napster here, Uber being the old Napster. 

Poof, now there is a black market taxi service complete with feedback and quality control which can only be shut down via expensive sting operations and much wasted government enforcement money.  Not unlike the Silk Road 1 through 3 and a hundred other dark web drug sites. 

The new economy views government as an unnecessary annoyance to be circumvented.  As capitalism begins to collapse on itself, and it will, enforcement priorities shift from annoying the citizens to defending the few remaining corporate and government interests.

The old model was to individually create and exploit.  Limit competition and variety. 

The new model is to collectively create and individually exploit.

I use exploit in a non negative way here, as to extract benefit from.

The 19th and 20th centuries were the age of corporations.  The 21st century will be the age of pirates.  For more information about pirates see The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Yea, so it shall come to pass that He will descend to the very earth, and He shall touch the tainted sands with His divine noodly appendage and He shall write in the sand and the writing that He shall scribe upon the sand will be writing that does tell of the means to construct the Great Contraption about which He shall write upon the sand. And the Great Contraption shall be built by His humble children who dwell upon the earth upon which lays the tainted sand onto which the writing about the Great Contraption shall be written by Him.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: capitalism is wrong [Re: quetzel]
    #23497586 - 08/01/16 04:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)



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