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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Citizens United * 2
    #23373019 - 06/23/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I would like to rekindle an old conversation we haven't discussed in a while. That discussion revolved around Citizens United, and how we might better handle the finance of political speech. In light of this election, I think it has become clear that "Citizens United" (A name which I personally find ironic), has nothing to do with the empowerment of citizens after all. It would be more appropriately named 'Oligarchs United'. In fact, one of the biggest reasons Clinton remained financially competitive against the populist candidate (Bernie Sanders), was because citizens united and certain other campaign finance loopholes ("laundering" money through the DNC), permitted rampant bribery of politicians by the plutocrat class.

What I am saying is that the donation cap on campaign contribution limits has not stopped the common man from expressing his/her voice. The same amount of money was raised without a Super PAC, by the populist candidate. It is a demonstration that Citizens United has only benefitted the wealthy, who wish to donate uncommonly large sums of money for one reason or another (and they have their reasons).

It is because of citizens united that Clinton is turning to Bush's donors for money, rather than Bernie's (Millions of common people), because she can raise more from them. This only works against the people.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23375304 - 06/23/16 09:31 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Billionaires could always spend millions on independent expenditures. Citizens United didn't change anything except the legal form they could use to do it.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #23375674 - 06/23/16 11:52 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Given the explosion in independent expenditures since Citizens United, I'm not so sure it "didn't change anything"...



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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #23375891 - 06/24/16 02:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Billionaires could always spend millions on independent expenditures. Citizens United didn't change anything except the legal form they could use to do it.




Yes, it gave them a more direct way of doing so. It obviously facilitates the process. This ruling only seems to benefit the wealthy, and contribute to their ever-growing influence on the political process. I see no reason for upholding it. It is bad for democracy.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23376197 - 06/24/16 06:07 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

That makes no sense.  How is forming a corporation and contributing through a corporation "more direct" than just spending the money directly?


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23376204 - 06/24/16 06:11 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

If not for CU then Enlil, do you have any ideas on why since it's passing things have changed so greatly?


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23376223 - 06/24/16 06:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Given the explosion in independent expenditures since Citizens United, I'm not so sure it "didn't change anything"...





I think it's far more likely that the increase in independent expenditures is the product of Speechnow v. Federal Election Commission.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23377216 - 06/24/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Only when coupled with Citizens United does Speechnow allow corporations to contribute unlimited amounts to independent expenditures.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/03/widening-impact-of-citizens-united/

Quote:

The DC Circuit Court explicitly rejected the FEC’s argument that large donations to groups that make independent political expenditures lead to a kind of civic corruption because such contributions lead to preferential access for donors and undue influence over officeholders.  The Circuit Court commented: “Whatever the merits of those arguments before Citizens United, they plainly have no merit after Citizens United…."




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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23378109 - 06/24/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That makes no sense.  How is forming a corporation and contributing through a corporation "more direct" than just spending the money directly?




It may have something to do with the fact that they can donate to an organized group to further a very specific political agenda, and work in unison, rather than trying to do things independently. It seems far more effective.

I'm not going to pretend that I fully understand every facet of this issue, because that would be disingenuous. I'm sure you have a better understanding of the technical implications. However, I don't see how this is good for the United States. All that appears to be happening, is that there is more money being spent more easily to influence politics.

Also, if your support for this ruling is about preserving free speech in this country, then I have to ask, do you believe that Super PACs ought to be able to communicate with political campaigns? Isn't restricting them from doing so limiting free speech?

On a side note, I do recall you making an argument in support of CU that went something like this (correct me if I am wrong): It gives common people the ability to pool their money together and contend with wealthy financial interests in propagating their respective agendas.

I have some serious problems with that claim, if that is in fact your position.


I would really like to hash this one out, once again, because I would like to know that my position on this issue is the correct one.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23379015 - 06/24/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

The rich have always been able to spend as much as they want in support of a candidate.  This was true before Citizens United, and it's true now.  The only way to change it is to gut the first amendment.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23379200 - 06/25/16 12:08 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

So why exactly did Citizens United bother to go to court?


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23379297 - 06/25/16 01:06 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What did change as a result of Citizens United was that wealthy individuals were permitted to pool their money with other donors in super PACs. Those other donors can now include corporations and unions in addition to private persons. But in terms of private individuals’ ability to give, nothing has changed. As Parton argues, part of the problem is that the rich are richer, hence more influential, and our political culture has become much more tolerant of heavy spenders. To this, I would add that another major advantage conferred to wealthy donors by the existence of super PACs is that making independent expenditures has become much easier. One of the more burdensome aspects of making independent political contributions has been finding a company to create and disseminate advertisements. With super PACs able to hire staff and focus on these tasks full time, all donors have to do is provide the money; they eliminate a lot of coordination costs and help political spending go further.




http://prospect.org/article/super-facts-about-super-pacs

So, it is now much simpler to make these expenditures (bribe politicians), the money goes further, and corporations and unions are afforded the same right to political speech as individuals.

That essentially sums up the effect of Citizens United. Now, does this help maintain equilibrium in the power structure? No (though some may believe that the wealthy have a right to more political power and influence). It would appear to me that the only effect of CU has been to bolster the already overwhelming power of oligarchs in American society.

It should be repealed, and done away with.

You know, I think if a corporation is going to be permitted a voice, and counted as the equivalent of a person, then every constituent of that institution should be permitted a vote on what kind of speech they wish to engage in. It shouldn't be figure-heads deciding what the corporation stands for. It should be the collective group.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/16 01:12 AM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23379579 - 06/25/16 03:48 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So why exactly did Citizens United bother to go to court?



We've covered this before.  Because Citizens United wasn't a rich person.  It was a PAC.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23379586 - 06/25/16 03:52 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

What did change as a result of Citizens United was that wealthy individuals were permitted to pool their money with other donors in super PACs.






Not only wealthy individuals...also middle class and poor individuals.

The wealthy don't need super PACs.  They can afford to buy airtime directly.  Middle class individuals need the ability to pool their money to do so.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23379711 - 06/25/16 05:11 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

What did change as a result of Citizens United was that wealthy individuals were permitted to pool their money with other donors in super PACs.






Not only wealthy individuals...also middle class and poor individuals.

The wealthy don't need super PACs.  They can afford to buy airtime directly.  Middle class individuals need the ability to pool their money to do so.




Middle class people don't need to do this, as they don't contribute more than the cap on campaign contributions in the first place. The middle class generally takes to youtube or blogs, if they are a particularly avid supporter.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23380024 - 06/25/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You're confusing campaign contributions with independent expenditures.  PACs don't contribute to campaigns.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23380594 - 06/25/16 11:59 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Wooof nailed it.  Many super PACs devote all of their resources to a single candidate, which is effectively the same as a direct contribution.

You can cover your eyes and pretend that's the not the case, but people know better.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23380603 - 06/25/16 12:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I think this comic sums it up very nicely:



--------------------
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23380645 - 06/25/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wooof nailed it.  Many super PACs devote all of their resources to a single candidate, which is effectively the same as a direct contribution.

You can cover your eyes and pretend that's the not the case, but people know better.



As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23380764 - 06/25/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.



The alternative is what we've had for hundreds of years before Citizens United gave the country to the corporation.


--------------------
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23380793 - 06/25/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're confusing campaign contributions with independent expenditures.  PACs don't contribute to campaigns.




PACs do contribute to campaigns (Super PACs don't):

Quote:

Before that, individual contributions to PACs were subject to a $5,000 limit, regardless of whether the PAC intended to use that money on political expenditures or make contributions directly to candidates.




Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wooof nailed it.  Many super PACs devote all of their resources to a single candidate, which is effectively the same as a direct contribution.

You can cover your eyes and pretend that's the not the case, but people know better.



As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.




Maybe you have more faith in the integrity of our politicians, and those running the Super PACs than the rest of America. Before a candidate announces their candidacy formally, they can (and do) all of the communicating with Super PACs they want. Hillary Clinton even proclaims that she has found a loophole which allows her to coordinate with 'Correct the Record'. The fact of the matter is, we all know that the law against coordination is more of a formality, so that nobody can say government is engaging in quid pro quo. This rule was made with a wink and a nod :wink:

They do coordinate.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/16 01:04 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23380956 - 06/25/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.



The alternative is what we've had for hundreds of years before Citizens United gave the country to the corporation.



Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23381260 - 06/25/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.



The alternative is what we've had for hundreds of years before Citizens United gave the country to the corporation.



Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding




I think you misunderstand Citizens United.


--------------------
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"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23381394 - 06/25/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I know you do.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23381602 - 06/25/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I know you do.




And I am correct.

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're confusing campaign contributions with independent expenditures.  PACs don't contribute to campaigns.




This is false. PACs do contribute to campaigns:

Quote:

Federal multi-candidate PACs may contribute to candidates as follows: $5,000 to a candidate or candidate committee for each election (primary and general elections count as separate elections); $15,000 to a political party per year; and. $5,000 to another PAC per year.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee



And let's not pretend that the difference between PACs and Super PACs is not a significant factor in this discussion. That is the whole problem with the Citizens United ruling. The fact that Super PACs are allowable.


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Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/16 05:50 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23381607 - 06/25/16 05:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Okay.  I'll leave you and Falcon to high five each other about Citizen's United.  It doesn't say what you guys think it says, but that shouldn't get in the way of a good circle jerk of ego stroking and armchair policymaking.

Have at it boys...


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23381734 - 06/25/16 06:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Okay.  I'll leave you and Falcon to high five each other about Citizen's United.  It doesn't say what you guys think it says, but that shouldn't get in the way of a good circle jerk of ego stroking and armchair policymaking.

Have at it boys...




I love a good ego-boosting circle jerk almost as much as a good debate. I haven't seen either here.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23382151 - 06/25/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding



Perhaps I've forgotten some specifics of the discussion, but what I remember with certainty is you saying you're fine with corporations and billionaires spending ridiculous amounts of money to influence elections and politicians, because to you that's "freedom".

That's where I disagree with you, regardless of Citizens United.


--------------------
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23400604 - 07/01/16 10:17 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Which do progressives hate more, the first or second ammendment?


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #23401211 - 07/01/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Neither one, Mr false choice Strawman King.

Sometimes limiting freedom a little provides more freedom elsewhere.  Like stop lights providing more freedom for drivers to drive without as many accidents.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23401343 - 07/01/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Which do progressives hate more, the first or second ammendment?




I can point to plenty of unconstitutional desires from the right, so I don't know what you're going on about. In fact, I can point to anti-Islam laws that have actually been implemented by conservative lawmakers. I'm sure you oppose the right to bear arms in many circumstances also. Do you think farmer brown, the alcoholic, should be in possession of biological weapons? Ballistic missiles? If you do, you're an idiot, and if you don't  you're opposed to his 'right to bear arms'.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23401373 - 07/01/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23401382 - 07/01/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud




The question? It was a disingenuous question. Your question was meant as an insult. Don't 'deflrct' that onto me.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/01/16 02:50 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23407380 - 07/03/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud




The question? It was a disingenuous question. Your question was meant as an insult. Don't 'deflrct' that onto me.




:cuteshit:


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407527 - 07/03/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So I've been looking at the strengthening of the corporate structure through landmark cases and think that enlil's is correct. It goes back to in 1886 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co. ) set the precedent for corporate personification. Guaranteeing 14th amendment rights to corporations and bars treating a small business and multi-national any differently regardless of the scale of the damage done. 1906 ( https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/201/43/case.html ) sets up 4th amendment rights for corporations. 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo ) protects politcal spending equating $$$ to speech.

In reading up I found these two to be particularly disturbing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Coal_Co._v._Mahon ) which gives corps 5th amendment rights to the takings clause meaning that they can sue over the potential losses a change in legislation could cause through regulatory takings.

and also ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. ) which (as Zappa RIP liked to remind us of) changed the responsibilities of corps directly to profitting the shareholders with no concern for benefitting customers or employees.


ah the dark nature of capitalism :sad:


edit: correct or fine tune what's not legally accurate, enlil


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:28 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407558 - 07/03/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
So I've been looking at the strengthening of the corporate structure through landmark cases and think that enlil's is correct. It goes back to in 1886 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co. ) set the precedent for corporate personification. Guaranteeing 14th amendment rights to corporations and bars treating a small business and multi-national any differently regardless of the scale of the damage done. 1906 ( https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/201/43/case.html ) sets up 4th amendment rights for corporations. 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo ) protects politcal spending equating $$$ to speech.

In reading up I found these two to be particularly disturbing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Coal_Co._v._Mahon ) which gives corps 5th amendment rights to the takings clause meaning that they can sue over the potential losses a change in legislation could cause through regulatory takings.

and also ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. ) which (as Zappa RIP liked to remind us of) changed the responsibilities of corps directly to profitting the shareholders with no concern for benefitting customers or employees.


ah the dark nature of capitalism :sad:


edit: correct or fine tune what's not legally accurate, enlil





Capitilaism sucks! Throw away our iPhones, laptops and cars! Booo capitilaism, I would prefer bread lines and only one choice of deodorant for life! Down with companies! Govt  will protect me!


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407563 - 07/03/16 03:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

so in this thread you aren't agreeing w/ warren and your representation of her ideas on the role govt takes in business creation?

jesusfuckingsatan dude get your shit together


--------------------
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407572 - 07/03/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Capitilaism sucks! Throw away our iPhones, laptops and cars! Booo capitilaism, I would prefer bread lines and only one choice of deodorant for life! Down with companies! Govt  will protect me!





Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
This is all irrelevant because "people don't build business, govt does, and you can always trust govt to dole out equal portions fairly and with no concern for themselves..." Elizabeth Warren




This quote is entirely accurate, anyone who says otherwise is a sore loser





Just wanted to put these two posts besides each other


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:51 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407583 - 07/03/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I see sarcasm is lost on you, it's okay, special needs people are people too


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407595 - 07/03/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

sarcasm with either of these statements really wouldn't change the fact that you're arguing two sides of a coin.


and that special needs comments is an insult. do you want to edit it or should I just report you in the spirit of your claims that insults are flung around and no one does anything about it?


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:58 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407640 - 07/03/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
sarcasm with either of these statements really wouldn't change the fact that you're arguing two sides of a coin.


and that special needs comments is an insult. do you want to edit it or should I just report you in the spirit of your claims that insults are flung around and no one does anything about it?




Report it, snitches are a dime a dozen on this, the best drug forum ever!

And Penile already taught me how to insult, it's a fine line, one I'll be sure not to cross again, if you're offended by my "observation" that's on you, not me, go cry to your mommy


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407643 - 07/03/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

airclay said:
sarcasm with either of these statements really wouldn't change the fact that you're arguing two sides of a coin.


and that special needs comments is an insult. do you want to edit it or should I just report you in the spirit of your claims that insults are flung around and no one does anything about it?




Report it, snitches are a dime a dozen on this, the best drug forum ever!

And Penile already taught me how to insult, it's a fine line, one I'll be sure not to cross again, if you're offended by my "observation" that's on you, not me, go cry to your mommy





I'm playing the progressive game of belittling instead of debating, remember?


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23407683 - 07/03/16 04:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

lol I'm over trying to converse w you. I only hope that you are indeed 15 and have a chance at growing up.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407700 - 07/03/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
lol I'm over trying to converse w you. I only hope that you are indeed 15 and have a chance at growing up.




Lol, dude you've nene tried to converse, you hopped on the insult bandwagon, just fuckinh ignore me, if you have the balls


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407720 - 07/03/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
So I've been looking at the strengthening of the corporate structure through landmark cases and think that enlil's is correct. It goes back to in 1886 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co. ) set the precedent for corporate personification. Guaranteeing 14th amendment rights to corporations and bars treating a small business and multi-national any differently regardless of the scale of the damage done. 1906 ( https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/201/43/case.html ) sets up 4th amendment rights for corporations. 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo ) protects politcal spending equating $$$ to speech.

In reading up I found these two to be particularly disturbing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Coal_Co._v._Mahon ) which gives corps 5th amendment rights to the takings clause meaning that they can sue over the potential losses a change in legislation could cause through regulatory takings.

and also ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. ) which (as Zappa RIP liked to remind us of) changed the responsibilities of corps directly to profitting the shareholders with no concern for benefitting customers or employees.


ah the dark nature of capitalism :sad:


edit: correct or fine tune what's not legally accurate, enlil




I wish you had posted this when I had the time to read through all of that shit. So, how does that all tie in with Citizens United?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23407725 - 07/03/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I just put HU on ignore. I can't do it anymore. Stop conversing with him, and start conversing with us, so we can sort out an appropriate stance on Citizens United.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23407760 - 07/03/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Citizens United States, that becuase corporations pay taxes, they are entitled to representation,

Now unless you want to give them tax free status like churches have, which I'm not at all opposed to, you must give them their constitutional rights, which include the right to weigh in on political topics

Btw, woofie put me on ignore becuase he's too chickenshit to debate me


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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23407803 - 07/03/16 05:18 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I had to. Sometimes it was funny but I just couldn't do it anymore.

I think enlil is correct in that it would take much more than overturning CU to change the situation we're in. He referenced Speechnow v. Federal Election Commission ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_evolution_in_2010 )

which I think limits the FEC authority to stopping corruption (which means that if money = speech then we are not seeing corruption in the current landscape?)

Quote:

Referencing Buckley v. Valeo, the Court found that campaign contributions and expenditures constitute "speech" and, therefore, fall under the protection of the First Amendment. The court – importantly - noted that limiting contributions and expenditures in an effort to equalize the political field is not a “legitimate government interest” sufficient to justify these regulations. The court went on to state that the only legitimate government interest that allows for the restriction of campaign finances is preventing corruption or the appearance of corruption.




I think that set the grounds for CU

Quote:

On January 21, 2010, the Supreme Court ruled in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, a case that received widespread attention and is often seen as the genesis for an explosion in political spending. Citizens United overruled an earlier decision, Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce and (in part) McConnell v. Federal Election Commission. These early cases had upheld prohibitions on “independent expenditures” and electioneering communications by corporations (respectively).
FECA had prohibited corporations and unions from using general treasury funds to make electioneering communications or independent expenditures for speech that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a federal candidate.[7] The Supreme Court found that the regulations, as narrowly applied to the case at hand (distribution of a documentary it had produced with the electioneering window) would nonetheless have a chilling effect on political speech. The Court, therefore, took a broader review of the regulations and whether they were facially valid restrictions on protected First Amendment Speech.
The Court returned to the first amendment principle that "political speech must prevail against laws that would suppress it, whether by design or inadvertence." They held that §441b’s prohibition on corporate independent expenditures and electioneering communications was a ban on speech and subject to "strict scrutiny;" requiring the government to prove that the restriction furthers a compelling interest and is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. In its review, the Court made several critical holdings:
1. The "anti-distortion" rationale in Austin argued for a compelling governmental interest in limiting political speech by corporations to prevent "the corrosive and distorting effects of immense aggregations of wealth that are accumulated with the help of the corporate form and that have little or no correlation to the public’s support for the corporation’s political ideas.”
2. That this rationale in fact "interferes with the 'open marketplace of ideas' protected by the First Amendment." According to the Court, "[a]ll speakers, including individuals and the media, use money amassed from the economic marketplace to fund their speech, and the First Amendment protects the resulting speech.”
3. And that "the rule that political speech cannot be limited based on a speaker’s wealth is a necessary consequence of the premise that the First Amendment generally prohibits the suppression of political speech based on the speaker’s identity."
In short, the court overturned its earlier ruling in Austin and the anti-distortion rationale as a justification for restrictions on speech, as embodied in political spending.
The Court also expanded on the distinction from Buckley v. Valeo between contributions (to candidates/parties/PACs) and expenditures (paid for by oneself) by finding that the anti-corruption rationale was a permissible basis for restricting corporate contributions, but not independent corporate expenditures. The Court held that the appearance of, or actual, corruption was the only constitutionally valid basis to restrict expenditures, and that "independent expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption.”




It seems to be nitpicking and twisting of the details in the highest order in the protection of money passing hands

I don't agree that money = speech because, to me, that would equate that an individual (independently, with out organization {including corps that are legally individuals}) have more of a right to unmolested opinions and representations of such from the state than the average citizen. Which I believe to be a reverse of democracy. The 1976 Buckley V Valeo decision says that I'm wrong tho and that

Quote:

The Court affirmed a First Amendment interest in spending money to facilitate campaign speech, writing, "A restriction on the amount of money a person or group can spend on political communication during a campaign necessarily reduces the quantity of expression by restricting the number of issues discussed, the depth of their exploration, and the size of the audience reached."




so it seems that we're deeply entrenched in laws that protect the spending of money over democracy; based upon the fallacy of a free-market meritocracy in which you have earned the right through the accruance of capital to more of a say than others with less than.


to answer your q about it tying into CU; as long as corps are equal to people then the way money is labelled as speech puts actual people at a huge disadvantage. The pool of money to represent the interest of the people will never be able to contend with the pool of money to represent the shareholder primacy (or profits at all cost)


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 05:29 PM)


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407822 - 07/03/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Love it, clearly explain the reasoning behind CU, libtards block it cause "blah blah blah" *fingers in ears*

Fucking hilarious


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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23408323 - 07/03/16 08:24 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

More info on the Buckley decision:

More or less breaks down how it opens the door and plays into the situation we have today
Quote:

Perhaps most important for the future development of the law was Buckley's unequivocal rejection of the promotion of equality as a basis for limiting contributions or spending. This has significantly limited any effort to promote political equality through regulation of campaign spending and contributions. In 2008, the Court further restricted attempts to equalize spending in elections for the U.S. House and Senate when it struck down the "Millionaires Amendment" in FEC v. Davis (originally Davis v. FEC). That case overturned legislation that allowed candidates to accept larger contributions if their opponent spent substantially from personal wealth. In 2010, the Court overturned Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce (1990) and part of McConnell v. Federal Election Commission in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. In Citizens United, the Court, following Buckley's holding providing more expansive First Amendment protections for independent expenditures made on a candidate's behalf, held that Congress could not ban independent expenditures by corporations. The next year, in Arizona Free Enterprise PAC v. Bennett (2011) the Court further restricted state authority to regulate campaign finance to achieve greater equality, striking down provisions of Arizona's public financing system that gave extra government money to candidates who faced high spending opponents or high levels of independent expenditures.
Buckley's protections for political speech and activity, and skepticism of government efforts to regulate such activity, have left the United States at odds with the practice that has since developed in much of the democratic world. For instance, under the European Convention on Human Rights, it was held in Bowman v United Kingdom[4] that equality of citizen voice was a legitimate purpose, and spending money was not the core of freedom of expression. The leading case in Europe, Animal Defenders International v United Kingdom held that the UK's total ban on political advertising was compatible with freedom of expression "given the danger of unequal access based on wealth and to political advertising" which goes "to the heart of the democratic process."[5] A similar approach is taken in Latin America. In other Commonwealth countries, including Canada, Harper v. Canada (Attorney General),[6] it is routinely held that rules designed to limit spending at elections are legitimate, because they prevent conflicts of interest and promote political equality.




Justice White's dissenting opinion:
Quote:

Concededly, neither the limitations on contributions nor those on expenditures directly or indirectly purport to control the content of political speech by candidates or by their supporters or detractors. What the Act regulates is giving and spending money, acts that have First Amendment significance not because they are themselves communicative with respect to the qualifications of the candidate, but because money may be used to defray the expenses of speaking or otherwise communicating about the merits or demerits of federal candidates for election. The act of giving money to political candidates, however, may have illegal or other undesirable consequences: it may be used to secure the express or tacit understanding that the giver will enjoy political favor if the candidate is elected. Both Congress and this Court's cases have recognized this as a mortal danger against which effective preventive and curative steps must be taken.
Since the contribution and expenditure limitations are neutral as to the content of speech and are not motivated by fear of the consequences of the political speech of particular candidates or of political speech in general, this case depends on whether the nonspeech interests of the Federal Government in regulating the use of money in political campaigns are sufficiently urgent to justify the incidental effects that the limitations visit upon the First Amendment interests of candidates and their supporters.
[...]
It is also important to restore and maintain public confidence in federal elections. It is critical to obviate or dispel the impression that federal elections are purely and simply a function of money, that federal offices are bought and sold, or that political races are reserved for those who have the facility -- and the stomach -- for doing whatever it takes to bring together those interests, groups, and individuals that can raise or contribute large fortunes in order to prevail at the polls.




which would make me think that revisiting this decision might be a good idea with a little vision into how it would actually play out as Justice White described.


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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23410235 - 07/04/16 12:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Capitilaism sucks! Throw away our iPhones, laptops and cars! Booo capitilaism, I would prefer bread lines and only one choice of deodorant for life! Down with companies! Govt  will protect me!



Will you ever make just one post without a staw man?  :shrug:


--------------------
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