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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23380793 - 06/25/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're confusing campaign contributions with independent expenditures.  PACs don't contribute to campaigns.




PACs do contribute to campaigns (Super PACs don't):

Quote:

Before that, individual contributions to PACs were subject to a $5,000 limit, regardless of whether the PAC intended to use that money on political expenditures or make contributions directly to candidates.




Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wooof nailed it.  Many super PACs devote all of their resources to a single candidate, which is effectively the same as a direct contribution.

You can cover your eyes and pretend that's the not the case, but people know better.



As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.




Maybe you have more faith in the integrity of our politicians, and those running the Super PACs than the rest of America. Before a candidate announces their candidacy formally, they can (and do) all of the communicating with Super PACs they want. Hillary Clinton even proclaims that she has found a loophole which allows her to coordinate with 'Correct the Record'. The fact of the matter is, we all know that the law against coordination is more of a formality, so that nobody can say government is engaging in quid pro quo. This rule was made with a wink and a nod :wink:

They do coordinate.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/16 01:04 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23380956 - 06/25/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.



The alternative is what we've had for hundreds of years before Citizens United gave the country to the corporation.



Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23381260 - 06/25/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
As long as the candidate isn't in control of it, i don't have a problem with that.  The alternative is the decimation of free speech.



The alternative is what we've had for hundreds of years before Citizens United gave the country to the corporation.



Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding




I think you misunderstand Citizens United.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23381394 - 06/25/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I know you do.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23381602 - 06/25/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I know you do.




And I am correct.

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're confusing campaign contributions with independent expenditures.  PACs don't contribute to campaigns.




This is false. PACs do contribute to campaigns:

Quote:

Federal multi-candidate PACs may contribute to candidates as follows: $5,000 to a candidate or candidate committee for each election (primary and general elections count as separate elections); $15,000 to a political party per year; and. $5,000 to another PAC per year.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee



And let's not pretend that the difference between PACs and Super PACs is not a significant factor in this discussion. That is the whole problem with the Citizens United ruling. The fact that Super PACs are allowable.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/25/16 05:50 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23381607 - 06/25/16 05:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Okay.  I'll leave you and Falcon to high five each other about Citizen's United.  It doesn't say what you guys think it says, but that shouldn't get in the way of a good circle jerk of ego stroking and armchair policymaking.

Have at it boys...


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23381734 - 06/25/16 06:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Okay.  I'll leave you and Falcon to high five each other about Citizen's United.  It doesn't say what you guys think it says, but that shouldn't get in the way of a good circle jerk of ego stroking and armchair policymaking.

Have at it boys...




I love a good ego-boosting circle jerk almost as much as a good debate. I haven't seen either here.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Enlil]
    #23382151 - 06/25/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Every time we get here, it's the same.  You misunderstand citizens United and I'm tired of the same old back and forth that leads back to the same misunderstanding



Perhaps I've forgotten some specifics of the discussion, but what I remember with certainty is you saying you're fine with corporations and billionaires spending ridiculous amounts of money to influence elections and politicians, because to you that's "freedom".

That's where I disagree with you, regardless of Citizens United.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23400604 - 07/01/16 10:17 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Which do progressives hate more, the first or second ammendment?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #23401211 - 07/01/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Neither one, Mr false choice Strawman King.

Sometimes limiting freedom a little provides more freedom elsewhere.  Like stop lights providing more freedom for drivers to drive without as many accidents.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23401343 - 07/01/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Which do progressives hate more, the first or second ammendment?




I can point to plenty of unconstitutional desires from the right, so I don't know what you're going on about. In fact, I can point to anti-Islam laws that have actually been implemented by conservative lawmakers. I'm sure you oppose the right to bear arms in many circumstances also. Do you think farmer brown, the alcoholic, should be in possession of biological weapons? Ballistic missiles? If you do, you're an idiot, and if you don't  you're opposed to his 'right to bear arms'.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23401373 - 07/01/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23401382 - 07/01/16 02:49 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud




The question? It was a disingenuous question. Your question was meant as an insult. Don't 'deflrct' that onto me.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (07/01/16 02:50 PM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Citizens United [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23407380 - 07/03/16 02:34 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Nice deflction guys, still doesn't answer the question...

Yup, attack, belittle, impune. Your tactics are flawless, Saul would be proud




The question? It was a disingenuous question. Your question was meant as an insult. Don't 'deflrct' that onto me.




:cuteshit:


--------------------
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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407527 - 07/03/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

So I've been looking at the strengthening of the corporate structure through landmark cases and think that enlil's is correct. It goes back to in 1886 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co. ) set the precedent for corporate personification. Guaranteeing 14th amendment rights to corporations and bars treating a small business and multi-national any differently regardless of the scale of the damage done. 1906 ( https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/201/43/case.html ) sets up 4th amendment rights for corporations. 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo ) protects politcal spending equating $$$ to speech.

In reading up I found these two to be particularly disturbing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Coal_Co._v._Mahon ) which gives corps 5th amendment rights to the takings clause meaning that they can sue over the potential losses a change in legislation could cause through regulatory takings.

and also ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. ) which (as Zappa RIP liked to remind us of) changed the responsibilities of corps directly to profitting the shareholders with no concern for benefitting customers or employees.


ah the dark nature of capitalism :sad:


edit: correct or fine tune what's not legally accurate, enlil


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:28 PM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407558 - 07/03/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
So I've been looking at the strengthening of the corporate structure through landmark cases and think that enlil's is correct. It goes back to in 1886 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad_Co. ) set the precedent for corporate personification. Guaranteeing 14th amendment rights to corporations and bars treating a small business and multi-national any differently regardless of the scale of the damage done. 1906 ( https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/201/43/case.html ) sets up 4th amendment rights for corporations. 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_v._Valeo ) protects politcal spending equating $$$ to speech.

In reading up I found these two to be particularly disturbing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Coal_Co._v._Mahon ) which gives corps 5th amendment rights to the takings clause meaning that they can sue over the potential losses a change in legislation could cause through regulatory takings.

and also ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. ) which (as Zappa RIP liked to remind us of) changed the responsibilities of corps directly to profitting the shareholders with no concern for benefitting customers or employees.


ah the dark nature of capitalism :sad:


edit: correct or fine tune what's not legally accurate, enlil





Capitilaism sucks! Throw away our iPhones, laptops and cars! Booo capitilaism, I would prefer bread lines and only one choice of deodorant for life! Down with companies! Govt  will protect me!


--------------------
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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407563 - 07/03/16 03:48 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

so in this thread you aren't agreeing w/ warren and your representation of her ideas on the role govt takes in business creation?

jesusfuckingsatan dude get your shit together


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407572 - 07/03/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Capitilaism sucks! Throw away our iPhones, laptops and cars! Booo capitilaism, I would prefer bread lines and only one choice of deodorant for life! Down with companies! Govt  will protect me!





Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
This is all irrelevant because "people don't build business, govt does, and you can always trust govt to dole out equal portions fairly and with no concern for themselves..." Elizabeth Warren




This quote is entirely accurate, anyone who says otherwise is a sore loser





Just wanted to put these two posts besides each other


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:51 PM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Citizens United [Re: airclay]
    #23407583 - 07/03/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I see sarcasm is lost on you, it's okay, special needs people are people too


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Citizens United [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23407595 - 07/03/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

sarcasm with either of these statements really wouldn't change the fact that you're arguing two sides of a coin.


and that special needs comments is an insult. do you want to edit it or should I just report you in the spirit of your claims that insults are flung around and no one does anything about it?


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (07/03/16 03:58 PM)


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