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Rosen_Rot
Learning



Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Goa
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23372764 - 06/23/16 07:46 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I second this. Agar is definitely the way to go, noobs or not, just get in there and do it.
Personally I've never done it, it's easier for me with syringes however I am very pissed at the lousiness of the grow. I'm itching to isolate my own genes and preserve + the amount of cultures I can share with my friends would be amazing
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"The internet has one rule; use or be used" - Bjeldiablo ''there is no loneliness, only moments where contentment is fleeting'' SBJs "The Basics" 3iRiS9 "Cirque du freak" B+ BONANZA
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Rosen_Rot]
#23372774 - 06/23/16 07:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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How is it easier? Nothing easy about growing blind hoping for the best. That's kinda like saying that russian roulette is easy to survive.
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MycoLoopology
Eye's wide open



Registered: 06/12/16
Posts: 518
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Rosen_Rot]
#23372791 - 06/23/16 07:54 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rosen_Rot said: I second this. Agar is definitely the way to go, noobs or not, just get in there and do it.
Personally I've never done it, it's easier for me with syringes however I am very pissed at the lousiness of the grow. I'm itching to isolate my own genes and preserve + the amount of cultures I can share with my friends would be amazing
if youve never done it, you cant say one way is easier than another lol. while ive only done agar once, i was blown away by how easy it was. easier than G2G, easier than inoculating grains. easier all around, and better for clean growth everytime. i recommend agar, even though its been a LONG time since ive done it. i WILL be doing it again soon!
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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Rosen_Rot
Learning



Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Goa
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23372922 - 06/23/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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My apologies.
In this context ''easier'', for me, I'm referring to it's availability for it's price in comparison to the quantity I get.
I'm aware on how random the genes can be in spore syringes.
Quote:
MycoLoopology said:
Quote:
Rosen_Rot said: I second this. Agar is definitely the way to go, noobs or not, just get in there and do it.
Personally I've never done it, it's easier for me with syringes however I am very pissed at the lousiness of the grow. I'm itching to isolate my own genes and preserve + the amount of cultures I can share with my friends would be amazing
if youve never done it, you cant say one way is easier than another lol. while ive only done agar once, i was blown away by how easy it was. easier than G2G, easier than inoculating grains. easier all around, and better for clean growth everytime. i recommend agar, even though its been a LONG time since ive done it. i WILL be doing it again soon!
I don't see anything wrong with supporting a method that has had ridiculous amounts of success and it's benefits radiate like the sun. I admitted I had no experience in it but I would encourage others to try it if they have the availability
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"The internet has one rule; use or be used" - Bjeldiablo ''there is no loneliness, only moments where contentment is fleeting'' SBJs "The Basics" 3iRiS9 "Cirque du freak" B+ BONANZA
Edited by Rosen_Rot (06/23/16 08:47 AM)
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MycoLoopology
Eye's wide open



Registered: 06/12/16
Posts: 518
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Rosen_Rot]
#23373051 - 06/23/16 09:31 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rosen_Rot said: My apologies.
In this context ''easier'', for me, I'm referring to it's availability for it's price in comparison to the quantity I get.
I'm aware on how random the genes can be in spore syringes.
Quote:
MycoLoopology said:
Quote:
Rosen_Rot said: I second this. Agar is definitely the way to go, noobs or not, just get in there and do it.
Personally I've never done it, it's easier for me with syringes however I am very pissed at the lousiness of the grow. I'm itching to isolate my own genes and preserve + the amount of cultures I can share with my friends would be amazing
if youve never done it, you cant say one way is easier than another lol. while ive only done agar once, i was blown away by how easy it was. easier than G2G, easier than inoculating grains. easier all around, and better for clean growth everytime. i recommend agar, even though its been a LONG time since ive done it. i WILL be doing it again soon!
I don't see anything wrong with supporting a method that has had ridiculous amounts of success and it's benefits radiate like the sun. I admitted I had no experience in it but I would encourage others to try it if they have the availability 
fair enough, one step at a time right? (:
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: MycoLoopology]
#23373069 - 06/23/16 09:40 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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The main problem isn't the genes, although that is a factor. Cubes are one of the most pin-happy species of mushrooms, they will just fruit wherever and whenever they can. It's not uncommon to get a full tub with a MS grow.
The problem is that spores are never 100% clean and syringes can easily harbour bacteria, as well as molds. Bacteria is a bitch because it reduces yields and newer growers tend to not notice it.
Agar is pretty uncommon and expensive where I'm from. I buy my agar and malt extract from ebay, nothing stopping you from doing the same. When you think about it, I can buy a half kilo of agar for about $40 and it lasts a ridiculous amount of time, even though I use it a lot. Buying a syringe for every 10 jars will cost more in just a few batches of grains. Agar is always the logical choice, no matter where you're from or how experienced you are.
The only thing holding you back is you, not it's availability.
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Rosen_Rot
Learning



Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Goa
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23373126 - 06/23/16 10:02 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thus far I have not been so lucky to get a full tub with MS. Methods are improving and I'm getting better results but not exactly. This is why I want to focus on agar.
Most of my tubs have triched out. I agree that bacteria is a mega bitch. It's been a problem and just like you I do suspect, partially, from the syringes.
I get most of my supplies, including the grain, from online suppliers. It really does not cost me a lot either. Sometimes it can be a bitch to note down suppliers since I'm also from Europe and everyone else seems to be from the US, shipping costs and what.
Trust me, I know what's holding me back but that is a different story. I never said agar work was not a logical choice. I know it is and I do want to try it, in due time. Meanwhile I'll encourage other posters to try it too
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"The internet has one rule; use or be used" - Bjeldiablo ''there is no loneliness, only moments where contentment is fleeting'' SBJs "The Basics" 3iRiS9 "Cirque du freak" B+ BONANZA
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Rosen_Rot]
#23373192 - 06/23/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Grains can be found in any country that has birds and livestock, which is basically every country on earth Just have to know where to look. If you like WBS, try pet stores and buy it by the sack if you have the space for it. If you prefer larger grains like I do, oats is found in pretty much every single livestock/horse feed store. I buy a 25kg sack of oats for 11euro, lasts a very long time. So unless you literally live next door to your vendor, you are overpaying for the grains because of the shipping. Specialized stores will tend to have lower prices as well, so you should definitely try and find some.
Things are definitely harder for us that live in the EU but you should always try to make it easier on yourself. I was pretty much hopeless in finding a cheap grain but I kept at it until I found out where I need to ask. Persistance is key.
I have a great lab grade agar supplier on ebay based in the UK should you ever want one. Bought a kilo of agar for ~57euro with shipping included. It is by far, the best agar I have ever used, melts in cold water and has great gelling strength.
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Orgasmatron
Stranger

Registered: 06/14/16
Posts: 30
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23373287 - 06/23/16 10:49 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't understand. As far as I know agar requires sterile conditions at every stage and cleanly transfering to grain is a PITA without a flow hood. Grains also require a sterilizer or pressure cooker with a pressure gauge which is difficult and expensive to obtain outside the USA.
For a newb or someone not interested in growing commercially or continuoulsy, syringes and PF cakes are much easier and work well without all that stuff and you can always spawn the cakes into a bulk sub with a simple pasteurization, to more than double your yields. Agar just seems like a lot of hassle and needs a lot more of a lab setup to avoid contamination.
Plus you can't clone forever, right? You need spores at some point, and making your own spore prints requires sterile tek. Buying spore syringes is well worth it IMO as it simplifies things a lot, and the contamination rate has been very low in my experience (and usually my fault). Yes, you can get higher yields and uniform crops with cloned mycelium from agar but it's a lot more work and investment unless I've missed some more recent teks that make the job easier.
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MycoLoopology
Eye's wide open



Registered: 06/12/16
Posts: 518
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Orgasmatron]
#23373336 - 06/23/16 11:04 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Orgasmatron said: I don't understand. As far as I know agar requires sterile conditions at every stage and cleanly transfering to grain is a PITA without a flow hood. Grains also require a sterilizer or pressure cooker with a pressure gauge which is difficult and expensive to obtain outside the USA.
For a newb or someone not interested in growing commercially or continuoulsy, syringes and PF cakes are much easier and work well without all that stuff and you can always spawn the cakes into a bulk sub with a simple pasteurization, to more than double your yields. Agar just seems like a lot of hassle and needs a lot more of a lab setup to avoid contamination.
Plus you can't clone forever, right? You need spores at some point, and making your own spore prints requires sterile tek. Buying spore syringes is well worth it IMO as it simplifies things a lot, and the contamination rate has been very low in my experience (and usually my fault). Yes, you can get higher yields and uniform crops with cloned mycelium from agar but it's a lot more work and investment unless I've missed some more recent teks that make the job easier.
i didnt say it was cheaper and/or easier to obtain the materials required.. but in the end it's easier for someone looking to stick with a hobby they truly enjoy...
if youre going to do something, do it right; right?
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Orgasmatron]
#23373391 - 06/23/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Orgasmatron said: I don't understand. As far as I know agar requires sterile conditions at every stage and cleanly transfering to grain is a PITA without a flow hood. Grains also require a sterilizer or pressure cooker with a pressure gauge which is difficult and expensive to obtain outside the USA.
For a newb or someone not interested in growing commercially or continuoulsy, syringes and PF cakes are much easier and work well without all that stuff and you can always spawn the cakes into a bulk sub with a simple pasteurization, to more than double your yields. Agar just seems like a lot of hassle and needs a lot more of a lab setup to avoid contamination.
Plus you can't clone forever, right? You need spores at some point, and making your own spore prints requires sterile tek. Buying spore syringes is well worth it IMO as it simplifies things a lot, and the contamination rate has been very low in my experience (and usually my fault). Yes, you can get higher yields and uniform crops with cloned mycelium from agar but it's a lot more work and investment unless I've missed some more recent teks that make the job easier.

Most of your comments are inaccurate. Transferring wedges is easy because you will have plenty of time to get experience doing transfers when using agar. You definitely do not need a flow hood to use agar, some use a SAB with better success rates than I do.
If you think a PC is not worth buying, I can see why you think agar is "a waste of time". For anyone serious about this hobby, cakes are a waste of time. They take infinitely longer to colonize and half pint jars are not exactly big either. At any rate, importing a PC to Europe just to do grains and agar will be more worth doing than buying syringes for as long as you grow. You have to keep buying syringes without agar because you can never really use your own spores with any kind of confidence. Syringes will cost you ~$20 each (IIRC) without shipping, that is only 10 jar inoculations, 20 if you really stretch it. 1 syringe will last you a lifetime if you use agar, you will be saving money if you buy a PC and agar in the long run, not to mention higher yields than any cake spawned to bulk can muster since you will be able to choose good genetics.
A PC also doesn't have to have a pressure gauge, it's nice but definitely not a neccessity. A mirro is just as good as a presto and it doesn't have a gauge.
I recommend agar and bulk even more so to newbs, because the chances of failing are higher so why not start with the best on day one? You don't have to grow commercially to buy a PC or use agar, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.
All agar needs is a plastic box with 2 holes in it, hardly considered "lab grade". Agar can even be sterilized in a microwave, even though this is a really bad and slow way of doing it.
You can definitely use clones for a long time, if you do slants, you can easily keep a culture young for over 20 years. Even longer if you really wanted to and it's not even hard to do either. It's true, you have to start from spores at some point, but if you buy 1 print you will be able to print more. You can effectively trade those prints in the marketplace to get new species/varieties and it doesn't matter how dirty the print you are given is because.... you guessed it, you have agar.
You can wipe your ass with your hand after taking a dump, pick your nose right after, sneeze on your print and then wipe the snot off the print with your brown smudged hand and you will still be able to clean that print up on agar, so no, you do not "need" especially good sterile procedures for printing and using your own spores when using agar. Syringes are "worth" buying if you are only interested in getting a handful of shrooms with the pf tek and get high but for anyone who is serious about mycology as a hobby and a homegrower, they are not.
I urge you to know what you are talking about before you start spreading nonsense. Honestly, if I were to mention all the upsides of a PC and agar over cakes and syringes, this post will span pages and it is already far too long.
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Orgasmatron
Stranger

Registered: 06/14/16
Posts: 30
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23373531 - 06/23/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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wow... OK, rock on with your slants and cleaning up agar, dude. Sorry to offend your dogma with my inaccurate "nonsense".
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Orgasmatron]
#23373603 - 06/23/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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You didn't offend me at all, what you said would have been detrimental to anyone reading it had I not corrected it though.
There is just no way around it, if you are serious about mycology as a hobby, agar and a PC is a requirement. A PC is not even all that expensive to buy when compared to syringes in the long run. If you ever end up getting serious about growing, you will start recommending the same.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23373941 - 06/23/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Totally worth putting someone on ignore for... Do you not like helpful information?
Should add Pastywhyte, cronicr, Trusted Cultivator, blindingleaf, SpitballJedi, Pussyfart, FrankHorrigan, spacechildo, Munchauzen, Locn9ne, Mad Season, Big Bear, MudaFuka, TheEaglesGift, RogerRabbit, and myself to your ignore list as well if you're offended by helpful information regarding agar and pressure cookers.
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Orgasmatron]
#23373957 - 06/23/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Orgasmatron said: wow... OK, rock on with your slants and cleaning up agar, dude. Sorry to offend your dogma with my inaccurate "nonsense".
Dogma would suggest it's a belief system not necessarily founded in truth, but Supa has only written facts up there.
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mupetmower
Mower of Muppets



Registered: 03/29/16
Posts: 3,036
Loc: Here and There
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Orgasmatron]
#23373969 - 06/23/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pasty Plates..
youre welcome, OP.
and stop getting butthurt over nothing. you wont get very much help here if you are unwilling to take criticism and get corrected. Supa was only helping you, and others.
-------------------- -The wise man never stops seeking knowledge.
-I wanna feel the change consume me, feel the outside turning in. I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within.
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Perception7
Psilocin Technician



Registered: 01/10/16
Posts: 403
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: mupetmower]
#23374204 - 06/23/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mupetmower said: Pasty Plates..
youre welcome, OP.
and stop getting butthurt over nothing. you wont get very much help here if you are unwilling to take criticism and get corrected. Supa was only helping you, and others.
I learned that day 1 - you know who you are
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Canc3r_Dav3
liquefied



Registered: 05/22/16
Posts: 133
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Perception7]
#23375071 - 06/23/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: BTW, you should start with a no-pour tek for agar at first. It's the easiest as well as the safest for someone who is new to it. Pastywhyte has a great no-pour tek, you should give the search engine a whirl and find it.
I looked up that tek earlier and it seems simple enough, I definitely want to start cloning cause spore syringes aren't cheap enough for long run deals. and I've learned how beneficial cloning can be.
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: Contrary to what newbs believe, agar makes cultivation easier, not harder. Sure, it's an extra step but it is an extra step that will bring piece of mind as well as better success rates. It might take you an extra week or two to inoculate jars with agar, as opposed to a syringe but if your syringe inoculation results in a contaminated monotub, the agar mono will be going strong still. Not to mention syringes are a waste of money and are something you just have to keep buying if you don't have agar to clean up the spores from your own grows.
the extra steps wont bother me I enjoy having something to do and things to learn/perfect lol
Quote:
Rosen_Rot said: This TEK will explain all the basics of mono as well as how to prep the poly.
ill definitely check that link out in a sec
Quote:
mupetmower said: Pasty Plates..
you're welcome, OP.
and stop getting butthurt over nothing. you wont get very much help here if you are unwilling to take criticism and get corrected. Supa was only helping you, and others.
lol thanks for that link I need to bookmark it on my laptop
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Canc3r_Dav3
liquefied



Registered: 05/22/16
Posts: 133
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Canc3r_Dav3]
#23375074 - 06/23/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol that back and fourth about agar gave me a good laugh
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Rosen_Rot
Learning



Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Goa
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: I have some questions about my monotub (pics) [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23375616 - 06/23/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Honestly, I attend an agricultural school and I have asked so many people where I can buy large amounts of oats or rye, as I prefer larger grains ( we're so similar ) Our feeding mills just use pelleted form of feed for horses and cows. We are not large enough to have pastures and all that so I think the farmer's have no need for them. I get 1kg of rye for 1euro online + shipping, so far, that's the best I can find but I'll have a look around more and see what I can get. Maybe I'll give WBS a try but it puts me off
And dude... you and me have so many things in common being Europeans. We should definitely share links
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"The internet has one rule; use or be used" - Bjeldiablo ''there is no loneliness, only moments where contentment is fleeting'' SBJs "The Basics" 3iRiS9 "Cirque du freak" B+ BONANZA
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