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OfflineHippocampus
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Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam
    #23369766 - 06/22/16 11:58 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

One major reason muslims commit acts of terrorism is to turn the west against islam, thus forcing the moderate muslims to choose sides, bolstering the extremist islam movement.  The more intolerant you are of the rest of the world's muslims the more unaccepted they will feel, and more will join the anti-western movements and/or stop assimilating peacefully into the western world. 

There's a large modern movement in Islam to return to a stone aged pious existence before the corruption of Western ideals.  That's a solution that could resonate with anyone who is sick of the sickness of the world.  Anyone who believes in Islam is hearing this idea over and over.  Of course it sounds wacky, but wacky ideas have a way of taking off in religions.  The more they hear it, the more normal it sounds.  "Eschew the western philosophy, and focus on Islam."  That's what your grandparents and parents always want you to do, be more into islam.  This sort of doomsday, "the world is getting shittier" attitude is common in all humanity.  But most people aren't convinced by Chicken Little.  Unless there is lots of evidence for its truth.  The west oppressing muslims is a great way for people to say, "hang on, maybe there is something to this wacky idea of death to the west."

The idea itself arose from the western world oppressing the arabic muslim world.  The British fucked every hole in the crumbling Ottoman Empire.  This feeling of being screwed over by a foreign power that has a different value system is what really started spreading this idea of extremist islam (it's what allowed North Korea to form too for a non-religious example).  And guess what, it caught on because the west continued screwing over the muslim world.  It's really completely a reaction to the west.  A way to try to preserve a culture from apparent deliberate destruction. 

So one thing we all can do to lessen the impact these terrorists have is to not fall into their trap of condemning a religion.  People just want to get along in this world and have their traditions and live the way they want.  Intolerance breeds intolerance.  And that's what this whole thing is really about, "intolerance".  Not religion, not west vs east, not arabic vs european.  Because in a climate of peace and acceptance, no one listens to those extremist assholes.  We have them in the USA too.  The Westboro Baptists and other religious and non-religious radicals.  They would love to piss off the rest of America, they would love to destabilize our cultural unity.  Then more people would join up with them.  But that doesn't work here.  Americans generally tolerate other people and ideas, it's part of our idea of freedom. 

We don't need to condemn Islam.  The western philosophy has already won the cultural war.  People want to live a modern life with all the comfort that brings.  People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.  These Islamic extremists had a dumb idea to begin with.  Go back to stone age living?!  who the fuck would want to do that?  Hardly anyone unless there's WAY more evidence that the west is a bad way of life.  We need to just keep on moving humanity forward with awesomeness and everyone will follow if it really is awesome.  The problem with our paradise is that some parts of the world are given a shittier deal.  Islamic terrorism is just a symptom of that inequality that is still in place.  But there will always be inequality, it's inherent in every form of government that's been successful.  If the inequality had grown up around the USA being given the shitty end of the stick historically, then we would have extremist christian terrorists trying to show the world that everything isn't perfect with the leading culture.

religion is just the scapegoat.  It's a way to put groups of disparate people into a box.  Don't fall into the trap the terrorists have deliberately laid.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] * 1
    #23369850 - 06/22/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.




:huxleyfacepalm: OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23369885 - 06/22/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Conservative values in the west and east seem to want to "agree to disagree". I noticed this too.

People should not give up on looking for true compromises, but you are right, not falling into traps is the first obvious thing.

A less claustrophobic dialogue will be possible when the blowhards and right wing reactionaries blow over.

Then someone might pull their head up, and say something half sane, like "hey guys, isn't it just a complicated world? What are we going to do about it"?

One can hope anyway.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Kurt]
    #23369966 - 06/22/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.




:huxleyfacepalm: OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!




sounds like you are "sick of the sickness of the world" eh?  Have you found yourself drawn to extremist, anti-establishment POVs?  Does the idea of not falling in a trap intrigue you? 

Quote:

Kurt said:
Conservative values in the west and east seem to want to "agree to disagree". I noticed this too.

People should not give up on looking for true compromises, but you are right, not falling into traps is the first obvious thing.

A less claustrophobic dialogue will be possible when the blowhards and right wing reactionaries blow over.

Then someone might pull their head up, and say something half sane, like "hey guys, isn't it just a complicated world? What are we going to do about it"?

One can hope anyway.




I do love hope. 

One of the things that popped into my head against posting this topic is that it's just one facet of a very, very complicated situation, and world in general as you said.  I have little idea what I or anyone can do about it individually.  Examining our thoughts is one way to avoid falling into error of agreeing with certain individuals about what they want to do about it.  I guess that's all I'm saying here.  Try to critically think about what's going on, and don't be swayed by surging popular opinion.  One reason I had for  posting this thread is that maybe people will have a way of thinking about this that I wouldn't think of myself.  There's a lot of out of the box thinkers in this forum.  But I suppose the right response all along is my initial reaction to anti-muslim reactionaries:  roll my eyes, shake my head, and hope they go away soon.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23370254 - 06/22/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:
    zzripz said:

        Quote:
        People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.



    :huxleyfacepalm: OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!






Quote:

sounds like you are "sick of the sickness of the world" eh?  Have you found yourself drawn to extremist, anti-establishment POVs?  Does the idea of not falling in a trap intrigue you?




if you were a follower of the posts I put out, then you may get an understanding where I am coming from. Yes, I see through the Abrahamist monotheistic beliefs, but also the materialistic beliefs of the modern world too. Yes they are all toxic, and the latter has grown out of the former which drives it in an unconscious way. For example, if you are hip to how the top players are into the Luciferian myth you see it is just the inverse of the 'God' myth!

So it is the exploration of all of this via questioning which liberates you from its mind control over you which would include praying and submitting to some 'God' as it would eating and drinking McCrap and paying them your money. Jeeeeez, you just gotta look at their toxic-coloured plastic facade and evil grinning clown to surely understand that?


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23370732 - 06/22/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


I do love hope. 

One of the things that popped into my head against posting this topic is that it's just one facet of a very, very complicated situation, and world in general as you said.  I have little idea what I or anyone can do about it individually.  Examining our thoughts is one way to avoid falling into error of agreeing with certain individuals about what they want to do about it.  I guess that's all I'm saying here.  Try to critically think about what's going on, and don't be swayed by surging popular opinion.  One reason I had for  posting this thread is that maybe people will have a way of thinking about this that I wouldn't think of myself.  There's a lot of out of the box thinkers in this forum.  But I suppose the right response all along is my initial reaction to anti-muslim reactionaries:  roll my eyes, shake my head, and hope they go away soon.





It's all about love, I hear.



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23370940 - 06/22/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.

End of discussion.


--------------------


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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #23371081 - 06/22/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Doesn't tolerating Islam just let them get more power, more numbers through immigration, more mosques for recruitment, more government positions, more power, at which point the terrorists have to do a lot less to incite an Islamic take over, if they don't take over anyway?

THEY WIN EITHER WAY

HEAD FOR THE HILLS


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23371188 - 06/22/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.

End of discussion.




That sounds more like a starter. Give it a good rev.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23371379 - 06/22/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.

I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] * 1
    #23371513 - 06/22/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

There is a sick infatuation with religion in the US.  We generally accept criticism and scrutiny of secular ideas, but religion and religious ideas are viewed differently and are less assailable.  We embrace freedom of religion and too often that is taken to mean that religion should get more than tolerated by default, its has to be respected...  Respect not earned should not be given.

The notion that opposing Islam is what they want is ridiculous.  Guilt, victim blaming and apologizing doesn't help anything.  The societies they form speak for themselves.  They are disgusting.  And no evils of any other society excuse that.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Penelope_Tree] * 1
    #23371531 - 06/22/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I'd be curious of how many of those Islamic nations OC mentioned, have a representative form of government that they voted for and put in place...(?)

If we are critiquing the people of nations and cultures on the other side of the world according to liberal values, what sign is there that a dialogue could be practically achieved in these certain terms? Who are we talking to?

...Or do we ourselves just handout our moral absolution, according to our own standards, in a vaccuum?

A moral sense may be whatever immediately strikes one's conscience, but it has to be considered complex at the same time.

Let's be fair. It is western liberal values of consumerism, (not just "freedom" anyway) that lays the sociopolitical world and environment out, as an all inclusive domain, with whatever lines portioned; mainly it seems, as a set of finite resources to be partitioned and "managed". This freedom/consumerism might destroy the world, or level it to something not worth living in before any other "evil" does. So who is going to condemn that for us?

The thing is, people are not ready or willing to admit that there is more than one dimension and diversity to the world. In recent years it has been sad to see that secularists intellectuals like Sam Harris, or the much less nuanced Bill Maher, seem to completely mistake the ideal of a rational or liberal society/dialogue. They hold to the view that this dialogue is just some magically clean basis, of things said, and judged, as true or not, and built up from, without any sense of history or circumstance.

Anyone can see the rhetoric going around, as of late, in the appeal to "common sense". Really, it is not based on how anyone knows what is going on, more just this principled reactionary denial to any prospect of relative dialogue, or anything that departs from the vacuous twitterwits we hear so much from today, as something "politically correct".

When people say be more relative, it doesn't mean just overlooking something. It means being a bit more pragmatic, and fairminded and just, in looking to how to initiate a two sided dialogue. This dialogue doesn't occur in a vacuum, something to rev up on any implicit western liberal values. As laudable and even universal as western liberal forum of justice is, its a way of being among others in a complex world, indeed.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23371561 - 06/22/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.

End of discussion.




Same sex intercourse is legal in 20 majority muslim countries.  So it's not a muslim thing across the board anyway.

 

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is a sick infatuation with religion in the US.  We generally accept criticism and scrutiny of secular ideas, but religion and religious ideas are viewed differently and are less assailable.  We embrace freedom of religion and too often that is taken to mean that religion should get more than tolerated by default, its has to be respected...  Respect not earned should not be given.

The notion that opposing Islam is what they want is ridiculous.  Guilt, victim blaming and apologizing doesn't help anything.




Religion doesn't have to be respected at all costs in america.  That's ridiculous. 

And you're making the fallacy of lumping all of Islam together with what some of them do and say. 

Opposition to Islam is certainly one thing islamist terrorists want.  https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/
They say it themselves.  It's no secret.  It's actually one of the main things these people believe terrorism will accomplish.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23371602 - 06/22/16 09:52 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Religion doesn't have to be respected at all costs in america.  That's ridiculous.




I didn't say that.  Twisting my words to make them more extreme than they were is ridiculous.


Quote:

And you're making the fallacy of lumping all of Islam together with what some of them do and say. 




Where did I make that fallacy?

You accuse me of lumping all of Islam together with what some do, but YOU are the one citing the Islamic State as representative of Muslim Terrorists (even though my post was not about terrorists at all, it was about Islam at large...)

Did you even read my post?  Its like you replied to a caricature you have in your head, not what I actually wrote...


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] * 1
    #23371780 - 06/22/16 10:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sure glad we didn't resist the Nazis during World War II, because that would have been just what they wanted.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
    #23371940 - 06/22/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Well its good to see some dialogue here. :peace:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Kurt]
    #23372042 - 06/23/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.

Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.

Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.

Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23372049 - 06/23/16 12:18 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Let's see what we have to look forward to: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3651956/Hundreds-migrants-closed-Calais-violent-rampage-tried-board-ferries-UK-police-used-tear-gas-force-back.html

They declare "Fuck the UK", the country in which they are seeking asylum. It is madness to allow them in.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23372051 - 06/23/16 12:19 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Did you even read my post?  Its like you replied to a caricature you have in your head, not what I actually wrote...





You must be new here to be surprised at such a tactic. :goose:


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Invisibleremake
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23372096 - 06/23/16 12:55 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I think it is important to take a deep breath when looking at situations such as this. It is a human problem stemming from human mindsets and psychologies following human "rules" for the benefit of human consumption (What benefit exactly? The comforts? The status? To whose standards are we regarding a "civilization" being "civilized"? What denotes a "happy" life?).

The fact that you are human, means that you are capable of changing it - matters not your ("dis")placement in society.

Don't know much but I'd none the less would like to give my opinion.

It seems, as in a lot of other forms of confrontation, that we are eagerly inclined to cut off the "tail" of the "lizzard" i.e attacking the physical or final form of a person or idea (which can easily grow back), rather than viewing the perpetrator in his/her context - down to micro scale - and understanding the formation of his/her motivations for committing the "crime" - Thus, identifying and cutting off the "head" of the "lizzard" (which can be done non-violently, as opposed to what this metaphor suggests, haha) - And applying this exact same investigation to ourselves, without emotional attachment to personal "context".

I believe that both opposing parties believe that they are doing "what is right". And, fundamentally believe that their actions ultimately would bring to effect a beneficial pay-off for "the greater good". Mere "ideas" separate us and causes insufferable conflict.

We must ask ourselves then, I believe -

"Who's game is being played?";

"Would 'the greater good' be a feeling, or a physical representation (as it currently is believed, IMO)?"

All our pain and suffering stems from a system that IS a game. Albeit a bitter and sour one. And, complexity aside, all this shit boils down to the petty attainment of some form of "satisfaction" or "ideal".

Although...I think I really do know too little about the actual situation and all the specific details to give any valuable input though. I just don't like everyone caring so much about dying and "the after life" - instead of spending their time living. Our children's minds are innocent playgrounds, and we're fucking them up! With tainted "love".


Edited by remake (06/23/16 01:14 AM)


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23372112 - 06/23/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.

I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.




There's my beautiful hope again. :heart:

That Kierkegaard quote seems so good for this situation.  The unconscious tends to believe things at face value, and oversimplify.  If I think about it, I am constantly being bombarded with those images and stories of fear and stereotypes.  It takes a sort of vigilant critical thinking to cut through all the BS that is targeted at subliminally controlling our hearts and minds. 

It's as if the US and world authorities in charge of bringing the terrorism to my attention and the ones tasked with doing something about it on my behalf (the government) are actually feeding me the exact things the terrorists want me to see in order to turn the most people against all of Islam, forcing the islamic  moderate grey area to unite with the hardliners because of sheer exclusion from the rest of the world.

   
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.

Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.

Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.

Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.




Yes, it's all very troubling.  It's certainly a clashing of cultures.  The same could be expected of many other different cultures inhabiting disparate thoughts that are brought together through calamity and urgent need.  It's too bad what has happened to those victimized by these attackers.  I fully support bringing these assholes to justice. 

But in a generation these problems will be greatly reduced.  The refugees will eventually assimilate to some degree if the terrorists don't ruin it for them.  That's the trap.  They want you to marginalize Islam, because that is the version of Islam the terrorists believe in.  The only way they can win is if a majority of the world's muslims join their ranks.     

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23372136 - 06/23/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You don't seem to understand The Agenda.

The Agenda is to create a United States of Europe that can compete with the USA, India and China.

To achieve this, Europeans have to be forced to identify with Europe and not with their native lands.

This means that ethnic solidarity must be smashed.

The best way to do this is to let in millions of Muslims, because they do not and will never identify meaningfully with the 'country' they live in.

They are 1) Muslims 2) Europeans 3) maybe, maybe, French or Swedish or whatever.

They are therefore the sort of citizen that the European elites want.

Muslim immigration to Europe will never end, because the European elites have betrayed their own people.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23372145 - 06/23/16 01:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.




Irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions. This is fact.


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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23372237 - 06/23/16 02:14 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think you can be powerful in this world. You're just a psychopath if you hold ultimate power here.

That is the nature of the situation. Everything is one mind.

I think if you have run into conspiracy stuff, The Agenda, and so forth, perhaps, well, perhaps you have some respect for European peoples and you want to take aim at the enemies of those people, but deep down, you know there is no plan?

Maybe?

There is hostility, stupidity, but no one is in control. If they are, they would lose their fucking minds.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23374779 - 06/23/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

if something is called a religion it is supposed to be treated with political correctness and respect

so suppose somebody wanted to fuck with this dumb conditioning
and also get tax breaks?

they might invent Scientolgy, or a Heavens Gate cult, or a Jim Jones cult, or borrow a lot of stuff from existing religions ... hmm come to think of it Islam has some real cucukoo stuff we could use in the mix, and everybody will say: "Hooray it's ancient, it must be deeply mystical, lets all bow down with kindly brotherly sentiments..."


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: laughingdog]
    #23377162 - 06/24/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

we have to look at the one who is doing the condemning of a religious belief. usually they are called 'atheists'. What do they believe? materialism? So does that mean materialism is their religion and we cannot question it. I have met with such derision over the years online when questioning those who claim to be atheists. They are usually basing everything on 'science' and 'providing evidence' and will not accept the definition and reality of 'scientism' :tongue: :strokebeard:

So is that not some similar-ish defense and lashing out like you'd get from questioning and/or condemning a religious belief like Islam?

In condemning eg Islam, what does the condemner offer as an alternative? is there any sense of spirituality for example? Most atheists spit in contempt if 'spirit' is mentioned. What do they mean?

So many questions...!


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23377205 - 06/24/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Unbelievable!

After 8 years and countless discussions of atheism you still fail - hard!

Atheism is not a belief in materialism or science. It is the stance that the god-believer has failed to provide any evidence.

The proper "substitute" for an irrational position is a rational position not to replace one fairy tale with another.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23379041 - 06/24/16 11:11 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I can't think of any good reasons not to condemn tooth fairy bullshit that results in murder and repression.

Islam is not a scapegoat. It's a fucked up religious/political system who's main prophet was a warlord who flew to heaven on a horse after committing and advising rape and slavery and he's the role model for all Muslims. How the hell do you reform that?

Sucks that people are born into such a system, but fuck Monotheism in general and especially Islam. Crazy shit. Islamic terrorism is a symptom of Islam. Dogmatic ideology generally leads to the repression of individual liberty and Islam is the elephant in the room.

Let's not condemn it.... shhhhh.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #23379333 - 06/25/16 01:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

But, but, but ALL religions hold a kernel of Truth - don't they?



Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23379900 - 06/25/16 07:08 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Unbelievable!

After 8 years and countless discussions of atheism you still fail - hard!

Atheism is not a belief in materialism or science. It is the stance that the god-believer has failed to provide any evidence.

The proper "substitute" for an irrational position is a rational position not to replace one fairy tale with another.




exactly

plus the failure to distinguish between the idea of a God that is separate from 'his' creation but never the less personally takes a very personal interest in oneself!!! and the idea of 'god' as oneness at a deeper level, such that there is no duality and no separate creator.

Such fuzziness in thinking combined with personal emotional attachments one is blind to, are characteristic of belief systems and superstitious thinking.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23380438 - 06/25/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?





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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge] * 1
    #23380450 - 06/25/16 11:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Who are those "Christians of European heritage"?

How about one for our century? 

This is a common diversionary tactic.  Uncomfortable about criticizing modern Islam?  Divert to criticizing Christians of the past.  Lame.  The evils of Christians do not excuse the evils of Muslims.  Its not a competition for who is worse.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380478 - 06/25/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
This is a common diversionary tactic.  Uncomfortable about criticizing modern Islam?  Divert to criticizing Christians of the past.  Lame.  The evils of Christians do not excuse the evils of Muslims.  Its not a competition for who is worse.



Christians in the past???

How about modern day warmonegering by caucasians in The Middle East.

I never said there was a competition, my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard.


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Edited by liquidlounge (06/25/16 11:18 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23380516 - 06/25/16 11:31 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not a christian so that is not my backyard.  I'm free to criticize what or who I want regardless.  I'm an atheist and will readily admit that most of the war in the 20th century was about secular, non-religious goals and ideas.  Many were actually killed in the name of atheism.

How about modern warmongering by Caucasians, what is the point of that?  Since they are white, and I am white, I am not allowed to criticize Islam?  Sounds racist to me.  Are you racist against whites?  White or not, most conflict in the world today involves Muslims.  And as usually happens with oppressive societies, most victims of Muslim oppression are Muslims themselves.  Its terrible.

I still don't know what Christians of the past you are referring to.  102 million?  Are you claiming that Hitler and Stalin killed in the name of Christianity?  That would be ridiculous...  They did not.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380730 - 06/25/16 12:35 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

EDIT.


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Edited by liquidlounge (06/25/16 12:45 PM)


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380766 - 06/25/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How about modern warmongering by Caucasians, what is the point of that?  Since they are white, and I am white, I am not allowed to criticize Islam?  Sounds racist to me.  Are you racist against whites?  White or not, most conflict in the world today involves Muslims.  And as usually happens with oppressive societies, most victims of Muslim oppression are Muslims themselves.  Its terrible.

I still don't know what Christians of the past you are referring to.  102 million?  Are you claiming that Hitler and Stalin killed in the name of Christianity?  That would be ridiculous...  They did not.



I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:

It says: of European Heritage.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23385978 - 06/26/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

True ISIS wants to force unthinking Muslims to choose sides, but would not truly THINKING Muslims just dump religion altogether. No afterlife...no second chance...just saying sorry don't cut it. That is the reality because we are mortal and doomed to die.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23388934 - 06/27/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:





Oh come on, don't wag your finger at me...  What did you mean by this then; "...my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard."  Because that sure look like you limiting my ability to criticize Islam, if not forbidding it.  What backyard do I have to look in?  I consider the entire solar system to be my backyard.  If that is too broad then my family is my backyard.  And in my family, we don't kill people for being gay.  We don't punish women for being raped.  And we don't put religion on an unassailable pedestal of respect.



Quote:

liquidlounge said:
It says: of European Heritage.




I'm still curious who these Christians are.  The graphic you put up is absolutely terrible.  No numbers, no citations, emotional and inciting language.  And it uses the worst graphical representation of data there can be - the pie graph.  Its pure propaganda and its crap.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23389244 - 06/27/16 09:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.

I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.




There's my beautiful hope again. :heart:

That Kierkegaard quote seems so good for this situation.  The unconscious tends to believe things at face value, and oversimplify.  If I think about it, I am constantly being bombarded with those images and stories of fear and stereotypes.  It takes a sort of vigilant critical thinking to cut through all the BS that is targeted at subliminally controlling our hearts and minds. 

It's as if the US and world authorities in charge of bringing the terrorism to my attention and the ones tasked with doing something about it on my behalf (the government) are actually feeding me the exact things the terrorists want me to see in order to turn the most people against all of Islam, forcing the islamic  moderate grey area to unite with the hardliners because of sheer exclusion from the rest of the world.

   
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.

Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.

Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.

Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.




Yes, it's all very troubling.  It's certainly a clashing of cultures.  The same could be expected of many other different cultures inhabiting disparate thoughts that are brought together through calamity and urgent need.  It's too bad what has happened to those victimized by these attackers.  I fully support bringing these assholes to justice. 

But in a generation these problems will be greatly reduced.  The refugees will eventually assimilate to some degree if the terrorists don't ruin it for them.  That's the trap.  They want you to marginalize Islam, because that is the version of Islam the terrorists believe in.  The only way they can win is if a majority of the world's muslims join their ranks.     

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.




How many generations of Muslims have already been in the EU, 3-4 in many cases and the net result is still a cultural disaster.

The refugees are also going to face the same problem, they have nothing in common with the native populations, they have different values, culture, religion, heritage, and genetics.

All the major leaders of the EU have already admitted the "cultural diversity" within the EU has been a massive failure. What more evidence do you want to see?


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23389254 - 06/27/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?








Yeah, all of those "Christian" US soldiers fighting those "Christian" German's, give us a break already, talk about a disingenuous approach to a debate.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23389263 - 06/27/16 09:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

For the record, I'm a believer in cultural assimilation. It needs to be talked about on its own terms. That's a real thing and has real consequences, like we are seeing in Sweden, etc.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #23389309 - 06/27/16 10:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
For the record, I'm a believer in cultural assimilation. It needs to be talked about on its own terms. That's a real thing and has real consequences, like we are seeing in Sweden, etc.




Sweden has turned in a disaster, in fact they want a vote to potentially get out of the EU as well.

"Cultural assimilation" can only work when there's economic prosperity, done in very small amounts (not like in the US and EU), and when there's agreement for that policy in the host nation. None of those factors exist in any developed nation today, that's why it's been a complete disaster in every aspect.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23389335 - 06/27/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

For the record, I wasn'tusing Sweden as an example of successful cultural asimilitation.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23390412 - 06/28/16 08:39 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:





Oh come on, don't wag your finger at me...  What did you mean by this then; "...my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard."  Because that sure look like you limiting my ability to criticize Islam, if not forbidding it.  What backyard do I have to look in?  I consider the entire solar system to be my backyard.  If that is too broad then my family is my backyard.  And in my family, we don't kill people for being gay.  We don't punish women for being raped.  And we don't put religion on an unassailable pedestal of respect.



Quote:

liquidlounge said:
It says: of European Heritage.




I'm still curious who these Christians are.  The graphic you put up is absolutely terrible.  No numbers, no citations, emotional and inciting language.  And it uses the worst graphical representation of data there can be - the pie graph.  Its pure propaganda and its crap.



Hi DieCommie :kiss:

The picture I posted was in response to OC's post and the picture he posted, it had nothing to do with you.

Fine, call them caucasians. I know, the graph may not be accurate, but there is still a point to it. Caucasians have been more vile for the past generations, than muslims, this is a fact. That said, many modern muslim countries are not civilized.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23390752 - 06/28/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting aside.

The most publicly sexually repressed religion in the USA is Mormonism, and Utah has the highest level of porn downloads.

Likewise, the Muslim religion is very sexually repressed and the top nation for porn inquiries on search engines is from Pakistan, a 95% Muslim nation.

I have often said on here that people don't even believe what they believe in.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23390775 - 06/28/16 10:55 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:





Oh come on, don't wag your finger at me...  What did you mean by this then; "...my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard."  Because that sure look like you limiting my ability to criticize Islam, if not forbidding it.  What backyard do I have to look in?  I consider the entire solar system to be my backyard.  If that is too broad then my family is my backyard.  And in my family, we don't kill people for being gay.  We don't punish women for being raped.  And we don't put religion on an unassailable pedestal of respect.



Quote:

liquidlounge said:
It says: of European Heritage.




I'm still curious who these Christians are.  The graphic you put up is absolutely terrible.  No numbers, no citations, emotional and inciting language.  And it uses the worst graphical representation of data there can be - the pie graph.  Its pure propaganda and its crap.



Hi DieCommie :kiss:

The picture I posted was in response to OC's post and the picture he posted, it had nothing to do with you.

Fine, call them caucasians. I know, the graph may not be accurate, but there is still a point to it. Caucasians have been more vile for the past generations, than muslims, this is a fact. That said, many modern muslim countries are not civilized.




"Caucasians have been more vile for the past generations, this is a fact"

Hmm... no, that isn't a fact. :facepalm:


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23390787 - 06/28/16 10:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Two world wars alone makes up for it.

If not, you're free to tell me something I didn't know.

Don't facepalm me, you're likely in the wrong here, anyway I'm excited to see your reply.

Edit: past generations may seem like a long time span, I should have written for the past 100 years.


Edited by liquidlounge (06/28/16 11:10 AM)


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23391123 - 06/28/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Two world wars alone makes up for it.

If not, you're free to tell me something I didn't know.

Don't facepalm me, you're likely in the wrong here, anyway I'm excited to see your reply.

Edit: past generations may seem like a long time span, I should have written for the past 100 years.




Having the capability to engage in large scale warfare doesn't mean they're immoral relative to the cultures that don't have the same capacity.

Does owning a tank and potentially using it for good make me more "vile" than the person with just a shotgun?  No it doesn't.

I would wager the only reason those other cultures didn't do the same is because they were incapable of it, surely you don't think they're are morally superior, because we can see how they behave even without having any "big guns".


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23391693 - 06/28/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Hippocampus

Same sex intercourse is legal in 20 majority muslim countries.  So it's not a muslim thing across the board anyway.


Well their hate-filled holy book tells muslims to throw gays off of buildings - which happens in many Muslim countries.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Spanishfly]
    #23392781 - 06/29/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Travelers in Istanbul got a taste of Muslim peace and love today. :heart:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23392849 - 06/29/16 01:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Two world wars alone makes up for it.

If not, you're free to tell me something I didn't know.

Don't facepalm me, you're likely in the wrong here, anyway I'm excited to see your reply.

Edit: past generations may seem like a long time span, I should have written for the past 100 years.




Having the capability to engage in large scale warfare doesn't mean they're immoral relative to the cultures that don't have the same capacity.

Does owning a tank and potentially using it for good make me more "vile" than the person with just a shotgun?  No it doesn't.

I would wager the only reason those other cultures didn't do the same is because they were incapable of it, surely you don't think they're are morally superior, because we can see how they behave even without having any "big guns".



Let's be a bit practical, killing 10 people is generally more vile than killing 1 human being.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Spanishfly]
    #23393041 - 06/29/16 04:18 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Spanishfly said:
Hippocampus

Same sex intercourse is legal in 20 majority muslim countries.  So it's not a muslim thing across the board anyway.


Well their hate-filled holy book tells muslims to throw gays off of buildings - which happens in many Muslim countries.




which 20 Muslim countries? name them?

Your second sentence is totally incongruous with your first!


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23393407 - 06/29/16 08:29 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I think he was quoting someone.

So op is worried about moderate muslims who are otherwise peaceful, jumping on the terrorist bandwagon because of general public resistance to their religion.
This is the reasoning behind the politically correct agenda of the media and its cowardly. Fuck the moderates, they should be dropping islam in droves in light of all the attacks.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23393422 - 06/29/16 08:39 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Two world wars alone makes up for it.

If not, you're free to tell me something I didn't know.

Don't facepalm me, you're likely in the wrong here, anyway I'm excited to see your reply.

Edit: past generations may seem like a long time span, I should have written for the past 100 years.




Having the capability to engage in large scale warfare doesn't mean they're immoral relative to the cultures that don't have the same capacity.

Does owning a tank and potentially using it for good make me more "vile" than the person with just a shotgun?  No it doesn't.

I would wager the only reason those other cultures didn't do the same is because they were incapable of it, surely you don't think they're are morally superior, because we can see how they behave even without having any "big guns".



Let's be a bit practical, killing 10 people is generally more vile than killing 1 human being.




Only if operating under the assumption all of the killings are unjustifiable in nature. Some killings are practical.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23393472 - 06/29/16 08:59 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

How many moderate muslims are really going to choose to become full fledged terrorists because of a little outsider intolerance anyways?
The religion should be outright condemned, but were worried these moderates are going to flip the switch because some people might be looking at them suspiciously when boarding a bus?
"You know, Ive had it with everyone thinking I'm a terrorist. I might as well just be one...yeah, Death to America!"


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23393549 - 06/29/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

My extended family is largely Roman Catholic. Not one dropped the faith with all of the pedophile priest reshuffling and the hiding and denying of crimes.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23395265 - 06/29/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

More moderate Muslims integrating into society:



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23395320 - 06/29/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Fun driving conditions in France.



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23401120 - 07/01/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Okay OP I won't condemn islam. But do I have your permission do dislike it? And is it okay if I dislike blueberry muffins too?


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23402104 - 07/01/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sober reflection would seem to remind us of what we already know in the back of our minds, namely:

1) labels are huge generalities.
2) societies are huge chaotic dynamic changing conglomerations with many ill defined pockets with shifting boundaries, that have both conflicting and common  agendas.

3) so seemingly simple 'solutions' are unlikely to be relevant.

4) so seemingly simple 'solutions' are unlikely to be implementable.

5) so seemingly simple 'solutions' are likely to already be outdated.

for example there is, in some sense, no one "America"; the Hell's Angles and the Amish might almost as well be different counties, yet we speak as if there were such an entity as America.

We all wish there were easy solutions, and that we are the ones smart enough to see it, but unfortunately history would seem to show this is most likely fantasy.

Politicians, for example, take advantage of our heartfelt but irrational hopes for quick external solutions for deep systemic human problems. And vast numbers of people become highly emotional over concepts that have at best a very tenuous relationship to 'reality'.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23412717 - 07/05/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The refugees are also going to face the same problem, they have nothing in common with the native populations, they have different values, culture, religion, heritage, and genetics.

All the major leaders of the EU have already admitted the "cultural diversity" within the EU has been a massive failure. What more evidence do you want to see?




:ilold: at the shortsightedness.


Quote:


http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp

In Ireland almost half of the population lived on farms that produced little income. Because of their poverty, most Irish people depended on potatoes for food. When this crop failed three years in succession, it led to a great famine with horrendous consequences. Over 750,000 people starved to death. Over two million Irish eventually moved to the United States seeking relief from their desolated country. Impoverished, the Irish could not buy property. Instead, they congregated in the cities where they landed, almost all in the northeastern United States. Today, Ireland has just half the population it did in the early 1840s. There are now more Irish Americans than there are Irish nationals.

In the decade from 1845 to 1855, more than a million Germans fled to the United States to escape economic hardship. They also sought to escape the political unrest caused by riots, rebellion and eventually a revolution in 1848. The Germans had little choice — few other places besides the United States allowed German immigration. Unlike the Irish, many Germans had enough money to journey to the Midwest in search of farmland and work. The largest settlements of Germans were in New York City, Baltimore, Cincinnati, St. Louis and Milwaukee.

With the vast numbers of German and Irish coming to America, hostility to them erupted. Part of the reason for the opposition was religious. All of the Irish and many of the Germans were Roman Catholic. Part of the opposition was political. Most immigrants living in cities became Democrats because the party focused on the needs of commoners. Part of the opposition occurred because Americans in low-paying jobs were threatened and sometimes replaced by groups willing to work for almost nothing in order to survive. Signs that read NINA — "No Irish Need Apply" — sprang up throughout the country.




Quote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

The Native American Party, renamed the American Party in 1855 and commonly known as the Know Nothing movement, was an American political party that operated nationally in the mid-1850s.

The movement arose in response to an influx of migrants and promised to "purify" American politics by limiting or ending the influence of Irish Catholics and other immigrants, thus reflecting nativist and anti-Catholic sentiment. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by German and Irish Catholic immigrants, whom they saw as hostile to republican values and as being controlled by the Pope. Mainly active from 1854 to 1856, the movement strove to curb immigration and naturalization but met with little success. Membership was limited to Protestant men.




Cultural assimilation will happen; the Muslims will gradually adjust to living in their new lands, and the Europeans will gradually get over their racism. Homogeneity takes some time, but it's a natural process, one that has occurred countless times before, all over the globe. The particular example I quoted above is particularly poignant.

On another note, it was interesting to see so much Islamophobia in the PS&P forum. :mushroom2:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23412885 - 07/05/16 07:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

qman said:
The refugees are also going to face the same problem, they have nothing in common with the native populations, they have different values, culture, religion, heritage, and genetics.

All the major leaders of the EU have already admitted the "cultural diversity" within the EU has been a massive failure. What more evidence do you want to see?




:ilold: at the shortsightedness.


Quote:


http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp

In Ireland almost half of the population lived on farms that produced little income. Because of their poverty, most Irish people depended on potatoes for food. When this crop failed three years in succession, it led to a great famine with horrendous consequences. Over 750,000 people starved to death. Over two million Irish eventually moved to the United States seeking relief from their desolated country. Impoverished, the Irish could not buy property. Instead, they congregated in the cities where they landed, almost all in the northeastern United States. Today, Ireland has just half the population it did in the early 1840s. There are now more Irish Americans than there are Irish nationals.

In the decade from 1845 to 1855, more than a million Germans fled to the United States to escape economic hardship. They also sought to escape the political unrest caused by riots, rebellion and eventually a revolution in 1848. The Germans had little choice — few other places besides the United States allowed German immigration. Unlike the Irish, many Germans had enough money to journey to the Midwest in search of farmland and work. The largest settlements of Germans were in New York City, Baltimore, Cincinnati, St. Louis and Milwaukee.

With the vast numbers of German and Irish coming to America, hostility to them erupted. Part of the reason for the opposition was religious. All of the Irish and many of the Germans were Roman Catholic. Part of the opposition was political. Most immigrants living in cities became Democrats because the party focused on the needs of commoners. Part of the opposition occurred because Americans in low-paying jobs were threatened and sometimes replaced by groups willing to work for almost nothing in order to survive. Signs that read NINA — "No Irish Need Apply" — sprang up throughout the country.




Quote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

The Native American Party, renamed the American Party in 1855 and commonly known as the Know Nothing movement, was an American political party that operated nationally in the mid-1850s.

The movement arose in response to an influx of migrants and promised to "purify" American politics by limiting or ending the influence of Irish Catholics and other immigrants, thus reflecting nativist and anti-Catholic sentiment. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by German and Irish Catholic immigrants, whom they saw as hostile to republican values and as being controlled by the Pope. Mainly active from 1854 to 1856, the movement strove to curb immigration and naturalization but met with little success. Membership was limited to Protestant men.




Cultural assimilation will happen; the Muslims will gradually adjust to living in their new lands, and the Europeans will gradually get over their racism. Homogeneity takes some time, but it's a natural process, one that has occurred countless times before, all over the globe. The particular example I quoted above is particularly poignant.

On another note, it was interesting to see so much Islamophobia in the PS&P forum. :mushroom2:




You're trying to compare Irish/German Catholics that had a common values, culture, genetics, and geographic heritage with the US native population to African/Muslims in the EU, that's apples and oranges.

Is being Protestant and Catholic really that different?  NO. Is Islam and secular Europe different in the year 2016? Yes, big difference.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23412963 - 07/05/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
You're trying to compare Irish/German Catholics that had a common values, culture, genetics, and geographic heritage with the US native population to African/Muslims in the EU, that's apples and oranges.




Apparently a significant portion of the US native population back then didn't think so. :smirk:

Quote:


Is being Protestant and Catholic really that different?  NO. Is Islam and secular Europe different in the year 2016? Yes, big difference.




You've only answered the first question as you did because the two groups have already been homogenized, thus making it appear to you that the differences that existed between them aren't major.

Whatever differences exist between "secular" Europe and Islam will gradually be ironed out as well. Once the shock wears off, as they say. :wink:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23413078 - 07/05/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cultural assimilation will happen; the Muslims will gradually adjust to living in their new lands, and the Europeans will gradually get over their racism. Homogeneity takes some time, but it's a natural process, one that has occurred countless times before, all over the globe. The particular example I quoted above is particularly poignant.

On another note, it was interesting to see so much Islamophobia in the PS&P forum.




it is really interesting to search at Youtube etc eg 'ex Muslims' and see what people brought up in that religion say about it when they get out of it!

It is a mind control, like any cultish belief system. Many children--very young-- have to rock two and fro reciting the Quran, and some get beaten if they don't or don't do it according to the mind-controlled adults specifications! (don't worry, the child below doesn't!)



Edited by zzripz (07/05/16 09:17 AM)


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23413149 - 07/05/16 09:44 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
it is really interesting to search at Youtube etc eg 'ex Muslims' and see what people brought up in that religion say about it when they get out of it!

It is a mind control, like any cultish belief system. Many children--very young-- have to rock two and fro reciting the Quran, and some get beaten if they don't or don't do it according to the mind-controlled adults specifications! (don't worry, the child below doesn't!)





I saw something similar in the Vice News documentary, wherein reporters embedded with ISIS inside their Syrian capital of Raqqa. It's sad to see. The Middle East as a whole hasn't had the opportunity to truly uplift into the modern age, and it'll take a good deal of time for that to begin to happen. It's a problem that's been compounded by foreign interference in their affairs, the way in which the elite there are disproportionately capable of benefiting from what modern civilization does have to offer (and thus deliberately keeping it that way), and the collective trauma of a long, violent history.

The good news is how many have now migrated into Europe from Syria, Iraq, and even Afghanistan. Their cultural acclimatization (and vice versa) will reverberate back to that region with positive changes. :wink:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23413580 - 07/05/16 12:09 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

but I also cannot see much to jump and shout about this modern culture based in materialism!


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23413759 - 07/05/16 01:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

qman said:
You're trying to compare Irish/German Catholics that had a common values, culture, genetics, and geographic heritage with the US native population to African/Muslims in the EU, that's apples and oranges.




Apparently a significant portion of the US native population back then didn't think so. :smirk:

Quote:


Is being Protestant and Catholic really that different?  NO. Is Islam and secular Europe different in the year 2016? Yes, big difference.




You've only answered the first question as you did because the two groups have already been homogenized, thus making it appear to you that the differences that existed between them aren't major.

Whatever differences exist between "secular" Europe and Islam will gradually be ironed out as well. Once the shock wears off, as they say. :wink:




I think that's wishful thinking, Muslims have been in the EU for 3-4 generations now and there's still no real assimilation into European culture by a very large percentage of the Muslim population.

Again, comparing the Irish and German immigrants assimilating into US culture to Muslim's into the EU is a disingenuous argument.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman] * 2
    #23413889 - 07/05/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

I love this idea that, because a bunch of Northern European white people assimilated into an almost empty country of mostly Northern European white people 200 years ago, millions of Muslims can do the same thing in modern Europe, just as simple as that.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
    #23414137 - 07/05/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23414240 - 07/05/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Hobozen

Reason for deletion: asd



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23414298 - 07/05/16 04:31 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The kumbayah-singers can't handle that sort of information. They don't read history or psychology books.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
    #23414334 - 07/05/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens.




Quote:

Canada — Muslim 1.9%




As someone who lives in Canada, I can see how we are getting to the point where things are starting to get messy. Muslims are working their way up the government and pushing hard for Shariah law for all Muslim people. Trudeau is fucked, he reminds me of Merkel. There was a recent story on  some Canadian school, they let refugee ADULTS into a KIDS school just because they claimed to be younger than they actually are. But it would be racist to disbelieve them right? So the school lets them in. The teachers talk about how the men have beards and they sexually harass and assault the kids. There were hundreds or thousands of reports from teachers that got swept under the rug. This was covered up for some time unless I'm mistaking this story for one of the many other similar ones coming out of Germany and Sweden.

But it'll just take a few generations for them to adapt right? Just sweep it under the rug until it sorts itself out.


Edited by Hobozen (07/05/16 04:44 PM)


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23415438 - 07/05/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

That website is total BS.  It's making tons of errors in reasoning.  One is equating islam with islamization.  Another is assuming that a correlated (according to the website) higher rate of muslims to higher rates of culture clashes is some single causative factor (more muslims) when it almost certainly couldn't be that simple.  Another is demonizing the religion using language to make normal activities sound nefarious:  "recruiting" from prisons and street gangs... isn't that what all the major religions do?  Try to convert at risk people to see if the power of god can turn their lives around?  Or that they have enough numbers to demand (supply and demand) halal?  Nobody acts like Kosher is some anti-assimilation into culture by jews.. well maybe anti-semite literature.  Speaking of which, I bet you guys would be the types to listen to Hitler in 1930's Germany and be some of the first to sign up for the SS.  Jump on that Islam hating bandwagon!


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23415611 - 07/06/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Why is it cool to hate on Christianity in these forums but when it's about Islam everyone gets their panties
in a bunch? I don't even see much hate going on here, just a few panties bunched up.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23415816 - 07/06/16 02:07 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
Speaking of which, I bet you guys would be the types to listen to Hitler in 1930's Germany and be some of the first to sign up for the SS.  Jump on that Islam hating bandwagon!




Um, there was a division of the SS made up entirely of Muslim soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

But don't let that stop you screaming RRRAAAAAACCCCCCCIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23416147 - 07/06/16 07:07 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
That website is total BS.  It's making tons of errors in reasoning.  One is equating islam with islamization.  Another is assuming that a correlated (according to the website) higher rate of muslims to higher rates of culture clashes is some single causative factor (more muslims) when it almost certainly couldn't be that simple.  Another is demonizing the religion using language to make normal activities sound nefarious:  "recruiting" from prisons and street gangs... isn't that what all the major religions do?  Try to convert at risk people to see if the power of god can turn their lives around?  Or that they have enough numbers to demand (supply and demand) halal?  Nobody acts like Kosher is some anti-assimilation into culture by jews.. well maybe anti-semite literature.  Speaking of which, I bet you guys would be the types to listen to Hitler in 1930's Germany and be some of the first to sign up for the SS.  Jump on that Islam hating bandwagon!




"one is equating islam with islamization"

The failure to assimilate does not require radicalization.

"culture clashes"

Is this a PC term for the massive disproportional amount of criminal acts (sexual assault, rape, physical assault) committed by Muslims against the native populations in the EU?


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23416218 - 07/06/16 07:52 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Re " Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam "

what the hell, they bomb each other these days

as well as stone each other

deny women rights and education,

so

doesn't matter

if we appreciate the tiling art in the Alhambra, their beautiful architecture or their contribution to mathematics

they even loot their own heritage sites


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23416777 - 07/06/16 12:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I think that's wishful thinking, Muslims have been in the EU for 3-4 generations now and there's still no real assimilation into European culture by a very large percentage of the Muslim population.




Source?

Quote:

viktor said:
I love this idea that, because a bunch of Northern European white people assimilated into an almost empty country of mostly Northern European white people 200 years ago, millions of Muslims can do the same thing in modern Europe, just as simple as that.




It's a cool idea, isn't it? Just like so many people now, many people then only saw the differences. Assimilation happened anyway. It's easy for you to say the differences between those groups from then are meaningless compared to the differences between these groups now, but those people then certainly didn't feel the same way.
:sorry:

Quote:

blankk said:
So they aren't going to keep trying to turn Western civilization into a more primitive one? All the no-go zones are just going to one day disappear? All the radical Islamic leaders are going to suddenly disappear and stop teaching their youth about their goals of world conquest? Get off the magic carpet ride, it's not working, can't you see it? Even some of the world leaders are admitting it.





Yep, things will smooth out with time. Life goes on. :wink:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23417006 - 07/06/16 01:44 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

War goes on. As is proven by history time and time again :wink:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23417071 - 07/06/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

There will always be war because political leaders will always make bad decisions.

When I was in Europe last it was obvious to me that continuing to let in millions of Muslims would lead to a civil war one day. But the politicians kept doing it.

No-one can help the fact that people will always be violent because of political stupidity.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
    #23417103 - 07/06/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

that is what they do and want. You know them by their actions. Their whole purpose of creating funding and using 'ISIS' is to divide and control the territories they want to exploit. Same is so for here, wherever that is. IE they want to do it everywhere. DIVIDE & CONTROL


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23417162 - 07/06/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

qman said:
I think that's wishful thinking, Muslims have been in the EU for 3-4 generations now and there's still no real assimilation into European culture by a very large percentage of the Muslim population.




Source?





"This multicultural approach has failed, utterly failed" Angela Merkel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355961/Nicolas-Sarkozy-joins-David-Cameron-Angela-Merkel-view-multiculturalism-failed.html

"Nicolas Sarkozy- My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure"

"Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar have also said in recent months that multicultural policies had not successfully integrated immigrants"

So there you go, FOUR major leaders of the EU going on public record stating that "cultural diversity" (Muslims/African's) in the EU is a massive failure.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23417377 - 07/06/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23422539 - 07/08/16 06:52 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"This multicultural approach has failed, utterly failed" Angela Merkel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355961/Nicolas-Sarkozy-joins-David-Cameron-Angela-Merkel-view-multiculturalism-failed.html

"Nicolas Sarkozy- My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure"

"Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar have also said in recent months that multicultural policies had not successfully integrated immigrants"

So there you go, FOUR major leaders of the EU going on public record stating that "cultural diversity" (Muslims/African's) in the EU is a massive failure.




The recent statements of politicians who are trying to save their own political skin due to the rising tide of racists in their respective countries isn't a source for your claim that Muslim families who've been in Europe for over three generations have not really assimilated into Europe. :wink:

Multiculturalism failed? Because one of the cultures doesn't think the other culture adopted enough of its own culture? :rofl2:

My response to these people is cry me a fucking river. Yes, cry me a fucking river. "Oh no, I'm upset because people now live nearby me and they are *gasp* different!"


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23423343 - 07/08/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Switzerland tells Muslims: “If you reject our culture, we will reject your application for citizenship
http://dcwatchdog.org/switzerland-tells-muslims-if-you-reject-our-culture-we-will-reject-your-application-for-citizenship/

:rockon: That's how it's done


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23427225 - 07/09/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

the Swiss ani't no dummies

good: cheese, watches, clocks, chocolate, skiing ...

bunch of desert nomads in the alps better learn to adapt


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: laughingdog]
    #23428441 - 07/10/16 05:45 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

there was some vote is Switzerland recently which was about allowing everyone who have a living wage. I am gonna try and find out what happened

this is actually a possibility, but because of the insane shts running this world they do not allow it. They are enslavers, and mindcontrollers, warmongerers and ecocidal. A VERY evil mindSET


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Offlineqman
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23432420 - 07/11/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

qman said:
"This multicultural approach has failed, utterly failed" Angela Merkel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355961/Nicolas-Sarkozy-joins-David-Cameron-Angela-Merkel-view-multiculturalism-failed.html

"Nicolas Sarkozy- My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure"

"Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar have also said in recent months that multicultural policies had not successfully integrated immigrants"

So there you go, FOUR major leaders of the EU going on public record stating that "cultural diversity" (Muslims/African's) in the EU is a massive failure.




The recent statements of politicians who are trying to save their own political skin due to the rising tide of racists in their respective countries isn't a source for your claim that Muslim families who've been in Europe for over three generations have not really assimilated into Europe. :wink:

Multiculturalism failed? Because one of the cultures doesn't think the other culture adopted enough of its own culture? :rofl2:

My response to these people is cry me a fucking river. Yes, cry me a fucking river. "Oh no, I'm upset because people now live nearby me and they are *gasp* different!"




No, multiculturalism (Muslims/African's in the EU) failed because of many different reasons, the main one is economic in nature.  The EU is a socialist model, that means it offers social safety nets for the populations, when more people are not self-sufficient they become massive financial burdens on the government, that hurts the productive people in that economy.

The EU has been struggling economically for 15 years for a variety of reasons, there's high unemployment, there's underemployment, when the economy can't even take care of it's own citizens, why would these countries want people from third world nations?

The next problem is criminality, this "cultural diversity" experiment has failed because of the massive disproportional amount of crime that comes with these outsiders, immigration is suppose to enhance economic and social prosperity, not destroy it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23434219 - 07/12/16 07:22 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
Switzerland tells Muslims: “If you reject our culture, we will reject your application for citizenship
http://dcwatchdog.org/switzerland-tells-muslims-if-you-reject-our-culture-we-will-reject-your-application-for-citizenship/





:rofl:

Quote:


Authorities have rejected the naturalization application of two Muslim girls who refused to take required swimming lessons at school because boys would be present in the pool.




Quote:


Members of an immigrant family in the Basel area were denied citizenship because they wore sweatpants around town and did not greet passersby — a sure sign that they were not sufficiently assimilated, the naturalization board claimed.





Quote:


Another recent case sparked widespread outrage in Switzerland when two Muslim brothers refused to shake hands with their female teacher, also citing religious restrictions.




Proof that it isn't about culture. Who gives a fuck if someone shakes someone else's hand? Who gives a flying fuck if someone wears sweatpants and doesn't say hello to strangers? Oh no, a girl doesn't want to swim at school because they're culturally-conditioned that it is wrong? Fuck you, you can't live here! :rolleyes:

It's racism, and the racists aren't even trying to pretend that it isn't.


--------------------
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: laughingdog]
    #23434222 - 07/12/16 07:23 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
bunch of desert nomads in the alps better learn to adapt




Desert nomads? Your ignorance is showing. :ilold: when you thought you knew what others better do. :smirk:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23434224 - 07/12/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
there was some vote is Switzerland recently which was about allowing everyone who have a living wage. I am gonna try and find out what happened





It was rejected by 70% or so. It's something that will be popping up more and more, though.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23434240 - 07/12/16 07:35 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
No, multiculturalism (Muslims/African's in the EU) failed because of many different reasons...




A list of challenges that Europe is facing doesn't demonstrate that multiculturalism failed.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23434359 - 07/12/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
there was some vote is Switzerland recently which was about allowing everyone who have a living wage. I am gonna try and find out what happened





It was rejected by 70% or so. It's something that will be popping up more and more, though.




so is that right. Hmmm so you see, we are often told that there is a very small percent which are the cause of the unimaginable greed etc etc, the '1 percent'. YET here we have SEVENTY PERCENT of people voting against allowing people rightful money to live!!!?
so what does this mean then?


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23435358 - 07/12/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

blankk said:
Switzerland tells Muslims: “If you reject our culture, we will reject your application for citizenship
http://dcwatchdog.org/switzerland-tells-muslims-if-you-reject-our-culture-we-will-reject-your-application-for-citizenship/





:rofl:

Quote:


Authorities have rejected the naturalization application of two Muslim girls who refused to take required swimming lessons at school because boys would be present in the pool.




Quote:


Members of an immigrant family in the Basel area were denied citizenship because they wore sweatpants around town and did not greet passersby — a sure sign that they were not sufficiently assimilated, the naturalization board claimed.





Quote:


Another recent case sparked widespread outrage in Switzerland when two Muslim brothers refused to shake hands with their female teacher, also citing religious restrictions.




Proof that it isn't about culture. Who gives a fuck if someone shakes someone else's hand? Who gives a flying fuck if someone wears sweatpants and doesn't say hello to strangers? Oh no, a girl doesn't want to swim at school because they're culturally-conditioned that it is wrong? Fuck you, you can't live here! :rolleyes:

It's racism, and the racists aren't even trying to pretend that it isn't.




Where exactly is the racism? I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: fireworks_god]
    #23437572 - 07/13/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

qman said:
No, multiculturalism (Muslims/African's in the EU) failed because of many different reasons...




A list of challenges that Europe is facing doesn't demonstrate that multiculturalism failed.




Why take on unwanted "challenges"?  There is no obligation to have an open door policy for the third world, there are no unlimited resources inside of the EU, destroying an economy and society in the pursuit of "multiculturalism" is beyond irrational.

The only time the US or EU should allow LEGAL immigration is when there's a shortage of labor, neither place has that problem today.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23438049 - 07/13/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

FRANCE is on the verge of civil war that could be sparked by the mass sexual assault of women by migrants, according to the country's head of intelligence.


Patrick Calvar, chief of the Directorate General of Internal Security, told members of the French parliamentary commission: "We are on the brink of civil war."

He said that the situation in France is on such a knife edge that it could just take one more major Islamist terror attack to lead to a huge right-wing backlash.

Speaking to the leading French newspaper, Le Figaro, Mr Calvar said: "This confrontation I think it will take place.

"Even another one or two attacks and it will happen. It therefore behooves us to anticipate and block all these groups."

confrontation between the far right and Muslims poses more of a threat than terrorism.

He said: "There will be a confrontation between the far right and the Muslim world."

At one point, Mr Calvar said: "Europe is in great danger, extremism is growing everywhere."

The fears are that the country could suffer an attack similar to the one that happened in Germany on New Year's Eve where a staggering 1,200 women were sexually abused in German cities, particularly in Cologne.

Many of the suspect perpetrators were migrants of North African origin.

The attacks fuelled anger in Germany, which came just months after Chancellor Angela Merkel opened the borders to more than a million migrants and refugees from the Middle East and North Africa.

Mr Calvar's comments have come as the former MI6 boss Richard Dearlove also said that Europe faced a "populist uprising" if Governments do not take control of the migrant crisis.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/688821/Patrick-Calvar-intelligence-chief-warns-France-on-brink-of-civil-war-migrant-sex-attacks.



The racist right wingers are rising up, god save us!


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23438082 - 07/13/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

There are literally thousands of underage girls right across Britain who are being subjected to the most evil sexual attacks and even when - WHEN a handful of racist paedophiles are brought to court they are NEVER charged with 'race' or 'hate' crimes and what is more hateful and racist than selecting an underage girl for being white and British, grooming her and brutalising her and selling her as a sex slave - AND IT IS STILL GOING ON RIGHT NOW right across Britain for these men and their families don't think they are doing anything wrong and cry racist on the court steps.

We've become a sewer.




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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23438132 - 07/13/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Wake up! This is E X A C T L Y what they want. Divide and control. They want to implement here in the West what they been up to in other places, especially 'lately' the Middle East. And that is use their proxy brigade barbarians, al Qaeda > ISIS to create all kinds of chaos and division to provoke civil war and give them the excuse to invade. Obviously with the results of their evil, the floods of migrants into Europe and the demonizing of black protesters as terrorists this is the planned-for stage/theatre they plan to create division between all these groups. How easy it will be to psy op attaks on women, cop killing. Divide and Control... they DOIN' it!

Here's two good videos:





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Offlineqman
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23438140 - 07/13/16 03:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/12/foreign-men-rape-girls-multicultural-festival/

"A Swedish music festival specially focusing on themes like 'the fight against racism' multiculturalism, and combating sexual harassment has been rocked by multiple reports of sexual assault and rape"

Oh, the irony.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23438188 - 07/13/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Wake up!




Preaching to the choir. If you were awake, you'd have seen my posts talking about
something very similar to what you are.

However, I think your perspective is based too much on conspiracy theories. It also
seems to be defeatist, because even if there was a legitimate opposition to the
establishment, like say the new right movement, you would assume that that too
is part of the conspiracy, and distance yourself into a quiet, empty corner. Isn't that
what "they" want? Seems you are just as brainwashed as the rest of us.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
    #23438324 - 07/13/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
There will always be war because political leaders will always make bad decisions.




disagree -- violence is usually a personal choice

(with some exceptions: you see someone being mistreated right in front of you and your emotions take over ... or
you are in prison and Belligerence is necessary to prevent attack
..or
you are in a gang and Belligerence is necessary to save yourself
etc.)

joining the military in a country without a draft is based on personal belief, as is gun ownership, in say the USA. Watching boxing, American football, pro-wrestling, and many violent movies, and much TV, and punitive parents, etc. all these things, foster a mind set that: 'might makes right'. It's not just the guys at the top, IMO.


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hobozen]
    #23439933 - 07/14/16 05:06 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Did you even make an effort to watch the videos?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23439938 - 07/14/16 05:11 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/12/foreign-men-rape-girls-multicultural-festival/

"A Swedish music festival specially focusing on themes like 'the fight against racism' multiculturalism, and combating sexual harassment has been rocked by multiple reports of sexual assault and rape"

Oh, the irony.




You do realize that we are being besieged by psyops? I am not saying what happened there was that, but you cannot take things at face value as reported by the media. We are being infiltrated all over for their agenda of divide and control. Notice they are called 'foreign men'---the irony there is 'political correctness' but they have already set the scene that most people, led by their nose by all the propaganda are gonna be made to  think' MUSLIM MIGRANT TERRORISTS ISIS'!!


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23440293 - 07/14/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

qman said:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/12/foreign-men-rape-girls-multicultural-festival/

"A Swedish music festival specially focusing on themes like 'the fight against racism' multiculturalism, and combating sexual harassment has been rocked by multiple reports of sexual assault and rape"

Oh, the irony.




You do realize that we are being besieged by psyops? I am not saying what happened there was that, but you cannot take things at face value as reported by the media. We are being infiltrated all over for their agenda of divide and control. Notice they are called 'foreign men'---the irony there is 'political correctness' but they have already set the scene that most people, led by their nose by all the propaganda are gonna be made to  think' MUSLIM MIGRANT TERRORISTS ISIS'!!




"You do realize that we are being besieged by psyops?"

Yeah, because it's so hard to believe Muslims are raping and sexually assaulting Swedish women.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden "Sweden has had the highest numbers of registered rape offences in Europe by a considerable extent."

"over the agenda of divide and control"

Because division among two completely different cultures couldn't occur naturally? 

"propaganda are gonna to make to think MUSLIM MIGRANT TERRORISTS ISIS"

Yeah, because it's so hard to believe ISIS didn't take advantage of the situation and flood into the EU.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/11/merkel-admits-her-refugee-policy-helped-bring-terrorists-to-germany.html


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: qman]
    #23440674 - 07/14/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

you have fallen for it I am afraid. They got ya!

and btw, why you avoiding simply answering me when I ask IF you have watched the videos? Yes or no?


Edited by zzripz (07/14/16 11:54 AM)


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23440735 - 07/14/16 12:28 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Did you even make an effort to watch the videos?




Can't watch videos with my connection


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