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OfflineHippocampus
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Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23372112 - 06/23/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.

I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.




There's my beautiful hope again. :heart:

That Kierkegaard quote seems so good for this situation.  The unconscious tends to believe things at face value, and oversimplify.  If I think about it, I am constantly being bombarded with those images and stories of fear and stereotypes.  It takes a sort of vigilant critical thinking to cut through all the BS that is targeted at subliminally controlling our hearts and minds. 

It's as if the US and world authorities in charge of bringing the terrorism to my attention and the ones tasked with doing something about it on my behalf (the government) are actually feeding me the exact things the terrorists want me to see in order to turn the most people against all of Islam, forcing the islamic  moderate grey area to unite with the hardliners because of sheer exclusion from the rest of the world.

   
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.

Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.

Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.

Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.




Yes, it's all very troubling.  It's certainly a clashing of cultures.  The same could be expected of many other different cultures inhabiting disparate thoughts that are brought together through calamity and urgent need.  It's too bad what has happened to those victimized by these attackers.  I fully support bringing these assholes to justice. 

But in a generation these problems will be greatly reduced.  The refugees will eventually assimilate to some degree if the terrorists don't ruin it for them.  That's the trap.  They want you to marginalize Islam, because that is the version of Islam the terrorists believe in.  The only way they can win is if a majority of the world's muslims join their ranks.     

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.


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Offlineviktor
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Registered: 11/03/10
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #23372136 - 06/23/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You don't seem to understand The Agenda.

The Agenda is to create a United States of Europe that can compete with the USA, India and China.

To achieve this, Europeans have to be forced to identify with Europe and not with their native lands.

This means that ethnic solidarity must be smashed.

The best way to do this is to let in millions of Muslims, because they do not and will never identify meaningfully with the 'country' they live in.

They are 1) Muslims 2) Europeans 3) maybe, maybe, French or Swedish or whatever.

They are therefore the sort of citizen that the European elites want.

Muslim immigration to Europe will never end, because the European elites have betrayed their own people.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23372145 - 06/23/16 01:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.




Irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions. This is fact.


--------------------


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23372237 - 06/23/16 02:14 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think you can be powerful in this world. You're just a psychopath if you hold ultimate power here.

That is the nature of the situation. Everything is one mind.

I think if you have run into conspiracy stuff, The Agenda, and so forth, perhaps, well, perhaps you have some respect for European peoples and you want to take aim at the enemies of those people, but deep down, you know there is no plan?

Maybe?

There is hostility, stupidity, but no one is in control. If they are, they would lose their fucking minds.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23374779 - 06/23/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

if something is called a religion it is supposed to be treated with political correctness and respect

so suppose somebody wanted to fuck with this dumb conditioning
and also get tax breaks?

they might invent Scientolgy, or a Heavens Gate cult, or a Jim Jones cult, or borrow a lot of stuff from existing religions ... hmm come to think of it Islam has some real cucukoo stuff we could use in the mix, and everybody will say: "Hooray it's ancient, it must be deeply mystical, lets all bow down with kindly brotherly sentiments..."


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: laughingdog]
    #23377162 - 06/24/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

we have to look at the one who is doing the condemning of a religious belief. usually they are called 'atheists'. What do they believe? materialism? So does that mean materialism is their religion and we cannot question it. I have met with such derision over the years online when questioning those who claim to be atheists. They are usually basing everything on 'science' and 'providing evidence' and will not accept the definition and reality of 'scientism' :tongue: :strokebeard:

So is that not some similar-ish defense and lashing out like you'd get from questioning and/or condemning a religious belief like Islam?

In condemning eg Islam, what does the condemner offer as an alternative? is there any sense of spirituality for example? Most atheists spit in contempt if 'spirit' is mentioned. What do they mean?

So many questions...!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: zzripz]
    #23377205 - 06/24/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Unbelievable!

After 8 years and countless discussions of atheism you still fail - hard!

Atheism is not a belief in materialism or science. It is the stance that the god-believer has failed to provide any evidence.

The proper "substitute" for an irrational position is a rational position not to replace one fairy tale with another.


--------------------


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23379041 - 06/24/16 11:11 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I can't think of any good reasons not to condemn tooth fairy bullshit that results in murder and repression.

Islam is not a scapegoat. It's a fucked up religious/political system who's main prophet was a warlord who flew to heaven on a horse after committing and advising rape and slavery and he's the role model for all Muslims. How the hell do you reform that?

Sucks that people are born into such a system, but fuck Monotheism in general and especially Islam. Crazy shit. Islamic terrorism is a symptom of Islam. Dogmatic ideology generally leads to the repression of individual liberty and Islam is the elephant in the room.

Let's not condemn it.... shhhhh.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #23379333 - 06/25/16 01:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

But, but, but ALL religions hold a kernel of Truth - don't they?



Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?


--------------------


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23379900 - 06/25/16 07:08 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Unbelievable!

After 8 years and countless discussions of atheism you still fail - hard!

Atheism is not a belief in materialism or science. It is the stance that the god-believer has failed to provide any evidence.

The proper "substitute" for an irrational position is a rational position not to replace one fairy tale with another.




exactly

plus the failure to distinguish between the idea of a God that is separate from 'his' creation but never the less personally takes a very personal interest in oneself!!! and the idea of 'god' as oneness at a deeper level, such that there is no duality and no separate creator.

Such fuzziness in thinking combined with personal emotional attachments one is blind to, are characteristic of belief systems and superstitious thinking.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23380438 - 06/25/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?





--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge] * 1
    #23380450 - 06/25/16 11:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Who are those "Christians of European heritage"?

How about one for our century? 

This is a common diversionary tactic.  Uncomfortable about criticizing modern Islam?  Divert to criticizing Christians of the past.  Lame.  The evils of Christians do not excuse the evils of Muslims.  Its not a competition for who is worse.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380478 - 06/25/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
This is a common diversionary tactic.  Uncomfortable about criticizing modern Islam?  Divert to criticizing Christians of the past.  Lame.  The evils of Christians do not excuse the evils of Muslims.  Its not a competition for who is worse.



Christians in the past???

How about modern day warmonegering by caucasians in The Middle East.

I never said there was a competition, my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


Edited by liquidlounge (06/25/16 11:18 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23380516 - 06/25/16 11:31 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not a christian so that is not my backyard.  I'm free to criticize what or who I want regardless.  I'm an atheist and will readily admit that most of the war in the 20th century was about secular, non-religious goals and ideas.  Many were actually killed in the name of atheism.

How about modern warmongering by Caucasians, what is the point of that?  Since they are white, and I am white, I am not allowed to criticize Islam?  Sounds racist to me.  Are you racist against whites?  White or not, most conflict in the world today involves Muslims.  And as usually happens with oppressive societies, most victims of Muslim oppression are Muslims themselves.  Its terrible.

I still don't know what Christians of the past you are referring to.  102 million?  Are you claiming that Hitler and Stalin killed in the name of Christianity?  That would be ridiculous...  They did not.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380730 - 06/25/16 12:35 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

EDIT.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


Edited by liquidlounge (06/25/16 12:45 PM)


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
    #23380766 - 06/25/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How about modern warmongering by Caucasians, what is the point of that?  Since they are white, and I am white, I am not allowed to criticize Islam?  Sounds racist to me.  Are you racist against whites?  White or not, most conflict in the world today involves Muslims.  And as usually happens with oppressive societies, most victims of Muslim oppression are Muslims themselves.  Its terrible.

I still don't know what Christians of the past you are referring to.  102 million?  Are you claiming that Hitler and Stalin killed in the name of Christianity?  That would be ridiculous...  They did not.



I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:

It says: of European Heritage.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23385978 - 06/26/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

True ISIS wants to force unthinking Muslims to choose sides, but would not truly THINKING Muslims just dump religion altogether. No afterlife...no second chance...just saying sorry don't cut it. That is the reality because we are mortal and doomed to die.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23388934 - 06/27/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
I never said you were not allowed to criticize Islam. Don't be making assumptions Commie.  :nono:





Oh come on, don't wag your finger at me...  What did you mean by this then; "...my point was: before you criticize what's out there, look in your own backyard."  Because that sure look like you limiting my ability to criticize Islam, if not forbidding it.  What backyard do I have to look in?  I consider the entire solar system to be my backyard.  If that is too broad then my family is my backyard.  And in my family, we don't kill people for being gay.  We don't punish women for being raped.  And we don't put religion on an unassailable pedestal of respect.



Quote:

liquidlounge said:
It says: of European Heritage.




I'm still curious who these Christians are.  The graphic you put up is absolutely terrible.  No numbers, no citations, emotional and inciting language.  And it uses the worst graphical representation of data there can be - the pie graph.  Its pure propaganda and its crap.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 5 minutes
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23389244 - 06/27/16 09:42 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.

I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.




There's my beautiful hope again. :heart:

That Kierkegaard quote seems so good for this situation.  The unconscious tends to believe things at face value, and oversimplify.  If I think about it, I am constantly being bombarded with those images and stories of fear and stereotypes.  It takes a sort of vigilant critical thinking to cut through all the BS that is targeted at subliminally controlling our hearts and minds. 

It's as if the US and world authorities in charge of bringing the terrorism to my attention and the ones tasked with doing something about it on my behalf (the government) are actually feeding me the exact things the terrorists want me to see in order to turn the most people against all of Islam, forcing the islamic  moderate grey area to unite with the hardliners because of sheer exclusion from the rest of the world.

   
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.

Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.

Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.

Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.




Yes, it's all very troubling.  It's certainly a clashing of cultures.  The same could be expected of many other different cultures inhabiting disparate thoughts that are brought together through calamity and urgent need.  It's too bad what has happened to those victimized by these attackers.  I fully support bringing these assholes to justice. 

But in a generation these problems will be greatly reduced.  The refugees will eventually assimilate to some degree if the terrorists don't ruin it for them.  That's the trap.  They want you to marginalize Islam, because that is the version of Islam the terrorists believe in.  The only way they can win is if a majority of the world's muslims join their ranks.     

But it's not so simple to just blame it on a religion.  An abstract concept.  A system of beliefs based on tradition and texts hundreds of years old now.  An umbrella term for over a billion people who call their god Allah.




How many generations of Muslims have already been in the EU, 3-4 in many cases and the net result is still a cultural disaster.

The refugees are also going to face the same problem, they have nothing in common with the native populations, they have different values, culture, religion, heritage, and genetics.

All the major leaders of the EU have already admitted the "cultural diversity" within the EU has been a massive failure. What more evidence do you want to see?


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 6 hours, 5 minutes
Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23389254 - 06/27/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Hmmm, which would I rather have for neighbors?








Yeah, all of those "Christian" US soldiers fighting those "Christian" German's, give us a break already, talk about a disingenuous approach to a debate.


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