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Hippocampus



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Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam
#23369766 - 06/22/16 11:58 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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One major reason muslims commit acts of terrorism is to turn the west against islam, thus forcing the moderate muslims to choose sides, bolstering the extremist islam movement. The more intolerant you are of the rest of the world's muslims the more unaccepted they will feel, and more will join the anti-western movements and/or stop assimilating peacefully into the western world.
There's a large modern movement in Islam to return to a stone aged pious existence before the corruption of Western ideals. That's a solution that could resonate with anyone who is sick of the sickness of the world. Anyone who believes in Islam is hearing this idea over and over. Of course it sounds wacky, but wacky ideas have a way of taking off in religions. The more they hear it, the more normal it sounds. "Eschew the western philosophy, and focus on Islam." That's what your grandparents and parents always want you to do, be more into islam. This sort of doomsday, "the world is getting shittier" attitude is common in all humanity. But most people aren't convinced by Chicken Little. Unless there is lots of evidence for its truth. The west oppressing muslims is a great way for people to say, "hang on, maybe there is something to this wacky idea of death to the west."
The idea itself arose from the western world oppressing the arabic muslim world. The British fucked every hole in the crumbling Ottoman Empire. This feeling of being screwed over by a foreign power that has a different value system is what really started spreading this idea of extremist islam (it's what allowed North Korea to form too for a non-religious example). And guess what, it caught on because the west continued screwing over the muslim world. It's really completely a reaction to the west. A way to try to preserve a culture from apparent deliberate destruction.
So one thing we all can do to lessen the impact these terrorists have is to not fall into their trap of condemning a religion. People just want to get along in this world and have their traditions and live the way they want. Intolerance breeds intolerance. And that's what this whole thing is really about, "intolerance". Not religion, not west vs east, not arabic vs european. Because in a climate of peace and acceptance, no one listens to those extremist assholes. We have them in the USA too. The Westboro Baptists and other religious and non-religious radicals. They would love to piss off the rest of America, they would love to destabilize our cultural unity. Then more people would join up with them. But that doesn't work here. Americans generally tolerate other people and ideas, it's part of our idea of freedom.
We don't need to condemn Islam. The western philosophy has already won the cultural war. People want to live a modern life with all the comfort that brings. People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc. These Islamic extremists had a dumb idea to begin with. Go back to stone age living?! who the fuck would want to do that? Hardly anyone unless there's WAY more evidence that the west is a bad way of life. We need to just keep on moving humanity forward with awesomeness and everyone will follow if it really is awesome. The problem with our paradise is that some parts of the world are given a shittier deal. Islamic terrorism is just a symptom of that inequality that is still in place. But there will always be inequality, it's inherent in every form of government that's been successful. If the inequality had grown up around the USA being given the shitty end of the stick historically, then we would have extremist christian terrorists trying to show the world that everything isn't perfect with the leading culture.
religion is just the scapegoat. It's a way to put groups of disparate people into a box. Don't fall into the trap the terrorists have deliberately laid.
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zzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23369850 - 06/22/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.
OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23369885 - 06/22/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Conservative values in the west and east seem to want to "agree to disagree". I noticed this too.
People should not give up on looking for true compromises, but you are right, not falling into traps is the first obvious thing.
A less claustrophobic dialogue will be possible when the blowhards and right wing reactionaries blow over.
Then someone might pull their head up, and say something half sane, like "hey guys, isn't it just a complicated world? What are we going to do about it"?
One can hope anyway.
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Hippocampus



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Kurt]
#23369966 - 06/22/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.
OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!
sounds like you are "sick of the sickness of the world" eh? Have you found yourself drawn to extremist, anti-establishment POVs? Does the idea of not falling in a trap intrigue you?
Quote:
Kurt said: Conservative values in the west and east seem to want to "agree to disagree". I noticed this too.
People should not give up on looking for true compromises, but you are right, not falling into traps is the first obvious thing.
A less claustrophobic dialogue will be possible when the blowhards and right wing reactionaries blow over.
Then someone might pull their head up, and say something half sane, like "hey guys, isn't it just a complicated world? What are we going to do about it"?
One can hope anyway.
I do love hope.
One of the things that popped into my head against posting this topic is that it's just one facet of a very, very complicated situation, and world in general as you said. I have little idea what I or anyone can do about it individually. Examining our thoughts is one way to avoid falling into error of agreeing with certain individuals about what they want to do about it. I guess that's all I'm saying here. Try to critically think about what's going on, and don't be swayed by surging popular opinion. One reason I had for posting this thread is that maybe people will have a way of thinking about this that I wouldn't think of myself. There's a lot of out of the box thinkers in this forum. But I suppose the right response all along is my initial reaction to anti-muslim reactionaries: roll my eyes, shake my head, and hope they go away soon.
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zzripz
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23370254 - 06/22/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote: zzripz said:
Quote: People want McDonald's Cellphones Computers Internet microwaves plastics etc etc etc.
OMFG. Eeeny meeny miiiny mo?? pass me the noose now!!!
Quote:
sounds like you are "sick of the sickness of the world" eh? Have you found yourself drawn to extremist, anti-establishment POVs? Does the idea of not falling in a trap intrigue you?
if you were a follower of the posts I put out, then you may get an understanding where I am coming from. Yes, I see through the Abrahamist monotheistic beliefs, but also the materialistic beliefs of the modern world too. Yes they are all toxic, and the latter has grown out of the former which drives it in an unconscious way. For example, if you are hip to how the top players are into the Luciferian myth you see it is just the inverse of the 'God' myth!
So it is the exploration of all of this via questioning which liberates you from its mind control over you which would include praying and submitting to some 'God' as it would eating and drinking McCrap and paying them your money. Jeeeeez, you just gotta look at their toxic-coloured plastic facade and evil grinning clown to surely understand that?
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23370732 - 06/22/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I do love hope.
One of the things that popped into my head against posting this topic is that it's just one facet of a very, very complicated situation, and world in general as you said. I have little idea what I or anyone can do about it individually. Examining our thoughts is one way to avoid falling into error of agreeing with certain individuals about what they want to do about it. I guess that's all I'm saying here. Try to critically think about what's going on, and don't be swayed by surging popular opinion. One reason I had for posting this thread is that maybe people will have a way of thinking about this that I wouldn't think of myself. There's a lot of out of the box thinkers in this forum. But I suppose the right response all along is my initial reaction to anti-muslim reactionaries: roll my eyes, shake my head, and hope they go away soon.
It's all about love, I hear.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23370940 - 06/22/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.
End of discussion.
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] 2
#23371081 - 06/22/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Doesn't tolerating Islam just let them get more power, more numbers through immigration, more mosques for recruitment, more government positions, more power, at which point the terrorists have to do a lot less to incite an Islamic take over, if they don't take over anyway?
THEY WIN EITHER WAY
HEAD FOR THE HILLS
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Kurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion] 1
#23371188 - 06/22/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.
End of discussion.
That sounds more like a starter. Give it a good rev.
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Penelope_Tree
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23371379 - 06/22/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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To quote Kierkegaard, "an illusion can never be destroyed directly, and only by indirect means can it be radically removed." In order to alter the public consciousness, the public UNconscious must be altered first. We are constantly inundated with images and stories of fear and stereotypes. That's not only in the Western world, btw. Every culture has their own belief systems.
I think it is a noble endeavor to recognize that humans are vastly complex, and a viable solution will be one of respectful disagreement that preserves the rights of individuals.
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full blown human
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DieCommie

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23371513 - 06/22/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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There is a sick infatuation with religion in the US. We generally accept criticism and scrutiny of secular ideas, but religion and religious ideas are viewed differently and are less assailable. We embrace freedom of religion and too often that is taken to mean that religion should get more than tolerated by default, its has to be respected... Respect not earned should not be given.
The notion that opposing Islam is what they want is ridiculous. Guilt, victim blaming and apologizing doesn't help anything. The societies they form speak for themselves. They are disgusting. And no evils of any other society excuse that.
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Kurt
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Penelope_Tree] 1
#23371531 - 06/22/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd be curious of how many of those Islamic nations OC mentioned, have a representative form of government that they voted for and put in place...(?)
If we are critiquing the people of nations and cultures on the other side of the world according to liberal values, what sign is there that a dialogue could be practically achieved in these certain terms? Who are we talking to?
...Or do we ourselves just handout our moral absolution, according to our own standards, in a vaccuum?
A moral sense may be whatever immediately strikes one's conscience, but it has to be considered complex at the same time.
Let's be fair. It is western liberal values of consumerism, (not just "freedom" anyway) that lays the sociopolitical world and environment out, as an all inclusive domain, with whatever lines portioned; mainly it seems, as a set of finite resources to be partitioned and "managed". This freedom/consumerism might destroy the world, or level it to something not worth living in before any other "evil" does. So who is going to condemn that for us?
The thing is, people are not ready or willing to admit that there is more than one dimension and diversity to the world. In recent years it has been sad to see that secularists intellectuals like Sam Harris, or the much less nuanced Bill Maher, seem to completely mistake the ideal of a rational or liberal society/dialogue. They hold to the view that this dialogue is just some magically clean basis, of things said, and judged, as true or not, and built up from, without any sense of history or circumstance.
Anyone can see the rhetoric going around, as of late, in the appeal to "common sense". Really, it is not based on how anyone knows what is going on, more just this principled reactionary denial to any prospect of relative dialogue, or anything that departs from the vacuous twitterwits we hear so much from today, as something "politically correct".
When people say be more relative, it doesn't mean just overlooking something. It means being a bit more pragmatic, and fairminded and just, in looking to how to initiate a two sided dialogue. This dialogue doesn't occur in a vacuum, something to rev up on any implicit western liberal values. As laudable and even universal as western liberal forum of justice is, its a way of being among others in a complex world, indeed.
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Hippocampus



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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
#23371561 - 06/22/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Such nonsense. There are 10 Islamic nations wherein being gay is deemed a crime worthy of capital punishment.
End of discussion.
Same sex intercourse is legal in 20 majority muslim countries. So it's not a muslim thing across the board anyway.
Quote:
DieCommie said: There is a sick infatuation with religion in the US. We generally accept criticism and scrutiny of secular ideas, but religion and religious ideas are viewed differently and are less assailable. We embrace freedom of religion and too often that is taken to mean that religion should get more than tolerated by default, its has to be respected... Respect not earned should not be given.
The notion that opposing Islam is what they want is ridiculous. Guilt, victim blaming and apologizing doesn't help anything.
Religion doesn't have to be respected at all costs in america. That's ridiculous.
And you're making the fallacy of lumping all of Islam together with what some of them do and say.
Opposition to Islam is certainly one thing islamist terrorists want. https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/ They say it themselves. It's no secret. It's actually one of the main things these people believe terrorism will accomplish.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23371602 - 06/22/16 09:52 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Religion doesn't have to be respected at all costs in america. That's ridiculous.
I didn't say that. Twisting my words to make them more extreme than they were is ridiculous.
Quote:
And you're making the fallacy of lumping all of Islam together with what some of them do and say.
Where did I make that fallacy?
You accuse me of lumping all of Islam together with what some do, but YOU are the one citing the Islamic State as representative of Muslim Terrorists (even though my post was not about terrorists at all, it was about Islam at large...)
Did you even read my post? Its like you replied to a caricature you have in your head, not what I actually wrote...
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viktor
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23371780 - 06/22/16 10:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm sure glad we didn't resist the Nazis during World War II, because that would have been just what they wanted.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: viktor]
#23371940 - 06/22/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well its good to see some dialogue here.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Kurt]
#23372042 - 06/23/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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With 751 "no-go" Muslim Zones in France alone, wherein any non-Muslim dare not tread - including emergency services, it is obvious that many followers have no desire to assimilate into their adoptive country.
Rape rates have skyrocketed in Europe wherever Muslim refugees have settled because they have little respect for women, and none for non-Muslim women.
Workplaces here in America are already being forced in high-Muslim population areas, to change workplace rules - something not done for any other group.
Are there "good" or "peaceful" Muslims? Of course, but why belong to a group whose core tenets call for the extermination or conversion of non-Muslims if you do not accept that? The religion itself is extreme. So-called extremists are only following their book.
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OrgoneConclusion
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: DieCommie]
#23372051 - 06/23/16 12:19 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Did you even read my post? Its like you replied to a caricature you have in your head, not what I actually wrote...
You must be new here to be surprised at such a tactic.
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remake


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Re: Don't fall in the trap of condemning Islam [Re: Hippocampus]
#23372096 - 06/23/16 12:55 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it is important to take a deep breath when looking at situations such as this. It is a human problem stemming from human mindsets and psychologies following human "rules" for the benefit of human consumption (What benefit exactly? The comforts? The status? To whose standards are we regarding a "civilization" being "civilized"? What denotes a "happy" life?).
The fact that you are human, means that you are capable of changing it - matters not your ("dis")placement in society.
Don't know much but I'd none the less would like to give my opinion.
It seems, as in a lot of other forms of confrontation, that we are eagerly inclined to cut off the "tail" of the "lizzard" i.e attacking the physical or final form of a person or idea (which can easily grow back), rather than viewing the perpetrator in his/her context - down to micro scale - and understanding the formation of his/her motivations for committing the "crime" - Thus, identifying and cutting off the "head" of the "lizzard" (which can be done non-violently, as opposed to what this metaphor suggests, haha) - And applying this exact same investigation to ourselves, without emotional attachment to personal "context".
I believe that both opposing parties believe that they are doing "what is right". And, fundamentally believe that their actions ultimately would bring to effect a beneficial pay-off for "the greater good". Mere "ideas" separate us and causes insufferable conflict.
We must ask ourselves then, I believe -
"Who's game is being played?";
"Would 'the greater good' be a feeling, or a physical representation (as it currently is believed, IMO)?"
All our pain and suffering stems from a system that IS a game. Albeit a bitter and sour one. And, complexity aside, all this shit boils down to the petty attainment of some form of "satisfaction" or "ideal".
Although...I think I really do know too little about the actual situation and all the specific details to give any valuable input though. I just don't like everyone caring so much about dying and "the after life" - instead of spending their time living. Our children's minds are innocent playgrounds, and we're fucking them up! With tainted "love".
Edited by remake (06/23/16 01:14 AM)
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