|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 23 days, 7 hours
|
Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms
#23365082 - 06/20/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Not just cubensis, but other mushrooms too such as pan cyans for example. How is it there is so much difference in the types of effects people experience from a strain to strain basis, ontop of species, when all have the same active compound(s). Is it non-active compounds that can dramatically change even between strains that alter the effects of psilocin? Because there is probably 100 different other chemicals in there that its not reasonable to put the effort into to identify between strains.
Ultimately psilocin is psilocin. But when you consume a certain cubensis strain compared to another by the psilocin content, its possible to have a speedy high on one while a more visual high on the other. One idea i had was that the psilocin was present in numerous analogues, similar to how ephedra contains both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and different strains/species alter their ratios.
So whats going on exactly?
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom] 1
#23365211 - 06/20/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It's a good question, and I attribute it to small amounts of other actives, perhaps some that haven't ever really been characterized. Mushrooms are excellent at producing chemicals and have a lot of genetic ability to do that.
I've had consistent yet very different trips from different strains of cubes. And I've had trips of entirely different character to cubes from other species.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
#23365450 - 06/21/16 12:14 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
There isn't a consistent difference in trips between different advertised varieties of psilocybe cubensis. The genetic variation within each "strain" is so wide that even an expert mycologist cannot identify from which "strain" a particular fruit body is grown. I think maybe you have a somewhat incomplete understanding of what a strain is. Every time a pair of spores reproduce sexually a new strain is formed. So if you were to buy a spore syringe that is advertised as the "strain" Golden Teacher, when you germinate the spores you actually produce thousands upon thousands of vastly genetically different strains of mycelium.
So if two different people grow two different isolates of the variety advertised as Golden Teacher, it's actually more likely for the two isolates to be relatively genetically different than similar. So different in fact that they could be just as similar to an isolate grown from the variety advertised as Cambodian.
This is where the saying, "A cube is a cube is a cube." common among experienced mycologists, comes from.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (06/21/16 12:20 AM)
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23365570 - 06/21/16 01:24 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Experience says otherwise.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
#23365606 - 06/21/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
And you have some kind of evidence that it's not just all in your head?
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 23 days, 7 hours
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23365905 - 06/21/16 06:12 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
The fact still remains different mushrooms are known to give different types of trips, so, regardless of if two grows of a strain are different and infact DO give different trips contrary to what is typical for the strain, what is it then that attributes to the differences I at least have experienced, speedy euphoric stimulating high with minimal colors or visions, and colorful, intrusive hallucinations but at best only 30% of the same mental trip. Or generalized, how is it i had a 30:70 visual:mental trip on one strain and 70:30 on another, even ignoring the strains, how is it that i had this at all from two mushrooms of the same ingredient.
Id like to know what exactly causes these differences if anyone knows.
At the heart of it id like to know how to refine a strain to a particular outcome, as i rather like the speedy euphoric trips to the visual ones.
--------------------
     Mushroom Madness for my face and the tree on the moon dinosaur hello yellow im game. Shaman Australis Botanicals and Mycology (ethnobotany and mycology, an australia based discord) https://discord.gg/UYaH6QT
|
cube talk
Stranger

Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 1,223
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23366034 - 06/21/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
healing said: And you have some kind of evidence that it's not just all in your head?
this isn't the same thing since i'm comparing cube to cyans but, it's still the same drug the same psylocibin is psylocibin explanation:
There's a certain "seriousness" to cyans, a certain level of very very in your face ( not in a mean way ) that I never get from cube trips
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom] 1
#23366786 - 06/21/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DrMushroom said: The fact still remains different mushrooms are known to give different types of trips, so, regardless of if two grows of a strain are different and infact DO give different trips contrary to what is typical for the strain, what is it then that attributes to the differences I at least have experienced, speedy euphoric stimulating high with minimal colors or visions, and colorful, intrusive hallucinations but at best only 30% of the same mental trip. Or generalized, how is it i had a 30:70 visual:mental trip on one strain and 70:30 on another, even ignoring the strains, how is it that i had this at all from two mushrooms of the same ingredient.
Id like to know what exactly causes these differences if anyone knows.
At the heart of it id like to know how to refine a strain to a particular outcome, as i rather like the speedy euphoric trips to the visual ones.
It's all in your head. You think the trip is going to be different so it is.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23366797 - 06/21/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
healing said:
Quote:
DrMushroom said: The fact still remains different mushrooms are known to give different types of trips, so, regardless of if two grows of a strain are different and infact DO give different trips contrary to what is typical for the strain, what is it then that attributes to the differences I at least have experienced, speedy euphoric stimulating high with minimal colors or visions, and colorful, intrusive hallucinations but at best only 30% of the same mental trip. Or generalized, how is it i had a 30:70 visual:mental trip on one strain and 70:30 on another, even ignoring the strains, how is it that i had this at all from two mushrooms of the same ingredient.
Id like to know what exactly causes these differences if anyone knows.
At the heart of it id like to know how to refine a strain to a particular outcome, as i rather like the speedy euphoric trips to the visual ones.
It's all in your head. You think the trip is going to be different so it is.
That's merely a hypothesis. You don't have proof of that either, and merely because your assumptions dictate that should be so, doesn't mean it is. It could be, but I have seen this type of thing debated so many times on psychedelic forums and the odd thing is that in the few cases where I have seen people do double blind placebo tests, they have still been able to tell the difference, so we can't rule out the possibility that there is something going on.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
Edited by Peyote Road (06/21/16 12:59 PM)
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23366800 - 06/21/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said:
Quote:
healing said:
Quote:
DrMushroom said: The fact still remains different mushrooms are known to give different types of trips, so, regardless of if two grows of a strain are different and infact DO give different trips contrary to what is typical for the strain, what is it then that attributes to the differences I at least have experienced, speedy euphoric stimulating high with minimal colors or visions, and colorful, intrusive hallucinations but at best only 30% of the same mental trip. Or generalized, how is it i had a 30:70 visual:mental trip on one strain and 70:30 on another, even ignoring the strains, how is it that i had this at all from two mushrooms of the same ingredient.
Id like to know what exactly causes these differences if anyone knows.
At the heart of it id like to know how to refine a strain to a particular outcome, as i rather like the speedy euphoric trips to the visual ones.
It's all in your head. You think the trip is going to be different so it is.
That's merely a hypothesis. You don't have proof of that either, and merely because your assumptions dictate that should be so, doesn't mean it is. It could be, but I have seen this type of thing debated so many times on psychedelic forums and the odd thing is that in the few cases where I have seen people do double blind placebo tests, they have still been able to tell the difference, so we can't rule out the possibility that there is something going on.
I don't have to provide proof of a negative. That doesn't make sense and it's not how logic works. If anyone has to provide proof it's the person who makes the claim that they can differentiate "strains" of mushrooms. So do you have a link?
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23366931 - 06/21/16 02:08 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?
I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
SonicTitan



Registered: 05/17/16
Posts: 24,068
Last seen: 2 hours, 50 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23367174 - 06/21/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Liberty caps contain Phenethylamine along with psilocybin. I find D them much more euphoric and uplifting. Generally they are the strain I eat.
-------------------- "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
 
|
Pandemoon
Ἧeẍeᾐmeḭsṫeŗ ͛


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 5,844
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 hours, 30 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: SonicTitan]
#23367377 - 06/21/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SonicTitan said: Liberty caps contain Phenethylamine along with psilocybin.
Couldn't believe my eyes at first because I have never had heard of that before.. But a quick research led me to this intresting article. 20 years old, but in fact it seems that P.semilanceata produces PEA. Interesting for sure!
But PEA is rather inactive on it's own, isn't it? Most Trichocereus cacti also produce PEA (amongst other phens).
-
|
SonicTitan



Registered: 05/17/16
Posts: 24,068
Last seen: 2 hours, 50 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
#23367385 - 06/21/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not too sure man, I just know that libs make me super happy even at higher doses hahaha
-------------------- "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
 
|
SonicTitan



Registered: 05/17/16
Posts: 24,068
Last seen: 2 hours, 50 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: SonicTitan]
#23367397 - 06/21/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I just ate 2g lib caps about an hour ago and already starting to giggle haha
-------------------- "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
 
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23367726 - 06/21/16 06:06 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?
I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.
You are making the claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. I'm saying they can't. It's impossible to provide proof of a negative. In other words. It's impossible to prove that that they can't. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person disputing the claim. I'm disputing your claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. Now you need to provide proof. That's how burden of proof works.
It's not like scientists form hypotheses and then just say, "Well you can't prove that it isn't supported, so therefore it must be supported!" That makes no sense.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23367775 - 06/21/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Oh and here's some evidence that makes your claim unlikely.
Quote:
healing said: There isn't a consistent difference in trips between different advertised varieties of psilocybe cubensis. The genetic variation within each "strain" is so wide that even an expert mycologist cannot identify from which "strain" a particular fruit body is grown. I think maybe you have a somewhat incomplete understanding of what a strain is. Every time a pair of spores reproduce sexually a new strain is formed. So if you were to buy a spore syringe that is advertised as the "strain" Golden Teacher, when you germinate the spores you actually produce thousands upon thousands of vastly genetically different strains of mycelium.
So if two different people grow two different isolates of the variety advertised as Golden Teacher, it's actually more likely for the two isolates to be relatively genetically different than similar. So different in fact that they could be just as similar to an isolate grown from the variety advertised as Cambodian.
This is where the saying, "A cube is a cube is a cube." common among experienced mycologists, comes from.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (06/21/16 06:21 PM)
|
DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 23 days, 7 hours
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23368360 - 06/21/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
quoting yourself doesnt count. In any case its not the topic here, i want to find out about the difference between trips on mushrooms, the compounds responsible. The strain as you say is now for as far as you can be trusted on the subject irrelevant, but, we only know of one ingredient responsible for the psychedelic effects, yet trips differ in type not intensity, and i want to find out what it is, if not between strains then between growths, that causes different trips.
One thing that is inarguable is that trips are not the same between all cubes (even if the same strain) and dont differ solely by intensity.
--------------------
     Mushroom Madness for my face and the tree on the moon dinosaur hello yellow im game. Shaman Australis Botanicals and Mycology (ethnobotany and mycology, an australia based discord) https://discord.gg/UYaH6QT
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom]
#23368507 - 06/21/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Set and setting.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
Pandemoon
Ἧeẍeᾐmeḭsṫeŗ ͛


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 5,844
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 hours, 30 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom]
#23369355 - 06/22/16 08:41 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
The known species of psilos out there all differ in their ratio of psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin and N-baeocystin. There is no scientific evidence about that topic so we all can only speculate, but hey, I do believe that the ratio of these substances is responsible for the "slightly different" effects in a way we just don't know yet.
Libertycaps contain lots of psilocybin but hardly any psilocin. Woodlovers like P.azurences or Ps.cyanescens, and also libertycaps, contain massive ammounts of baeocystin compared to P.cubensis or Panaeolus ssp., wich lack this substance completly.
--
Healing is right, "a cube is a cube". But that doesn't mean they don't differ in effects. Besides the ratio of their compounds think of how they look and feel. Some cube-strains grow large but rather soft mushrooms, others use to grow small but thick with (very!) hard stems and so on. Means each strain takes a different time to digest or to set free the actives when eaten.. If you're seriously arguing this is relevant! 
-
|
Headrush


Registered: 05/20/16
Posts: 338
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
#23369433 - 06/22/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Cube is a cube, trips will be different each time. Power of suggestion is unavoidable. - I blended cubes Into consistent powder and capsulized. The material is consistent but trips never are. I agree the subspecies of cubes is non existent.
|
PassiveMenis
Stranger


Registered: 06/20/16
Posts: 95
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Headrush]
#23369521 - 06/22/16 10:11 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
With other species though, there's the question about baeocystin or whatever
--------------------
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23370101 - 06/22/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
healing said:
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?
I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.
You are making the claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. I'm saying they can't. It's impossible to provide proof of a negative. In other words. It's impossible to prove that that they can't. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person disputing the claim. I'm disputing your claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. Now you need to provide proof. That's how burden of proof works.
It's not like scientists form hypotheses and then just say, "Well you can't prove that it isn't supported, so therefore it must be supported!" That makes no sense.
I never claimed people could tell the difference, I said they might be able to. You are making the claim that they can't, so if the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim, it falls on you, sir.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
Edited by Peyote Road (06/22/16 02:21 PM)
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23370482 - 06/22/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said:
Quote:
healing said:
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?
I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.
You are making the claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. I'm saying they can't. It's impossible to provide proof of a negative. In other words. It's impossible to prove that that they can't. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person disputing the claim. I'm disputing your claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. Now you need to provide proof. That's how burden of proof works.
It's not like scientists form hypotheses and then just say, "Well you can't prove that it isn't supported, so therefore it must be supported!" That makes no sense.
I never claimed people could tell the difference, I said they might be able to. You are making the claim that they can't, so if the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim, it falls on you, sir.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23370511 - 06/22/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Look its simple. The question is, do different strains have different effects? Its easy enough to test, just get some people and dont tell them which is which and see if they can tell the difference.
Until then that is done we dont know if there is a difference or not. You can dispute the claim that there is, but that doesn't mean its for sure that there isn't. And I can dispute the claim of anyone who says for sure there isn't, because its not for sure.
Its just like generic vs brand name medication. There isn't supposed to be a difference. However, that doesnt mean its impossible for there to be a difference and in some cases there has been. Just because a patient who claims there is a difference can't prove it, doesn't mean the Dr is automatically right if he says there are the same.
Burden of proof means you can't just go believing the patient because he says there is a difference with no proof. Obviously its the burden of proof would be on him. But that doesn't mean you can just assume there is no difference either. For all you know, there could be. So just because a claim lacks proof, doesn't mean the opposite is true.
What is it about this you dont understand?
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
Edited by Peyote Road (06/22/16 05:01 PM)
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23370718 - 06/22/16 06:01 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Look its simple. The question is, do different strains have different effects? Its easy enough to test, just get some people and dont tell them which is which and see if they can tell the difference.
Until then that is done we dont know if there is a difference or not. You can dispute the claim that there is, but that doesn't mean its for sure that there isn't. And I can dispute the claim of anyone who says for sure there isn't, because its not for sure.
Right. So the next step is for the person who is claiming that there is a difference in effects to provide evidence.
And it's a little bit more complicated than that. You need a large enough sample size, the test has to be double blind, and you have to have a low enough p-value to prove that it's not just luck. But more importantly, there's all of the mycological problems associated with such a test, since the test would be based on the faulty definition of a strain that is used primarily as a marketing tactic by spore producers.
If you can't even determine that a fruit body of a particular strain belongs to a particular advertised variety, then how can you expect to test the effects of that advertised variety?
I would say that it's entirely possible for a person to differentiate between two strains of mushrooms, but it's impossible to differentiate between two "strains" of mushrooms because genetically, there's really no such thing.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23370741 - 06/22/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
that might be true if we are talking about golden teachers from one spore vendor grown by person x and golden teachers from another vendor grown by person y, but if one person was growing and kept differing colonies separate from each other its quite possible there could be a difference between them.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
|
filthyknees
no coincidence


Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6,283
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23371205 - 06/22/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
just think about the amount of different genetic combination could happen within one medium sized spore print.
millions of different spore combinations--> different genetics.
don't think there is much more to it than that. 
if you don't want such consistent differences use clones and all your mushrooms will be genetically narrowed to produce consistently. agar.
-------------------- But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow That it's one thing to try and another to fly You get there quicker just a step at a time It's one thing to bark, another to bite The show ain't over till you pack up at night
|
LuzaW
Um, yeah


Registered: 11/10/15
Posts: 610
Loc: Southeast USA
Last seen: 8 months, 22 days
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23371271 - 06/22/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?
you may find this free course helpful in understanding basic logic principles
http://oli.cmu.edu/courses/free-open/logic-proofs-course-details/
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
#23371586 - 06/22/16 09:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Peyote Road said: that might be true if we are talking about golden teachers from one spore vendor grown by person x and golden teachers from another vendor grown by person y, but if one person was growing and kept differing colonies separate from each other its quite possible there could be a difference between them.
That's true, but if you were to say that all Golden Teachers are alike, or that all Cambodians are different from Golden Teachers, that's just empirically incorrect.
So if someone thinks that they can tell the difference between advertised varieties, or "strains" of psilocybe cubensis, they are deluding themselves. There is some other factor that might be causing the similarity or difference of trips, like the advertised name itself, the set, setting, or dosage, or in fact there is no discernible difference or "strain" similarity being experienced, and the perceived similarity or difference is just an artifact of the very assumption that all Golden Teachers are somehow similar applied post hoc.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (06/22/16 10:07 PM)
|
rajabrokes
Stranger


Registered: 02/12/14
Posts: 1,131
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23371680 - 06/22/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
With cubes the growing substrate does tend to make big differences. A cube is a cube, but still.
-------------------- Really though we are not living in a scientific or technological age. Today human life is dominated by a hateful and greedy form of stasis which stands in the way of a coming technological age. One where there is hope for the future for example, instead of fear.
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,363
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 46 minutes, 47 seconds
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
#23371792 - 06/22/16 10:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: It's a good question, and I attribute it to small amounts of other actives, perhaps some that haven't ever really been characterized. Mushrooms are excellent at producing chemicals and have a lot of genetic ability to do that.
I've had consistent yet very different trips from different strains of cubes. And I've had trips of entirely different character to cubes from other species.
Exactly.
Different species contain different ratios of psychoactives in them, that contribute to the overall feel of the trip.
Ive had fresh wild Pan cyans that feel very different than cubes. Pan cyans are my favorite.
Ps cyans (woodlover) on the other hand, is quite similar to strong cubenis brought from dealers.
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
  Oregon Eclipse Festival 2017 :: Aug 19th - 21st :: Pure Paradise   Very Effective LSA Extraction Tek | 💧 Advanced Cold Water LSA Extraction Method 💧 |  Mescajuana - Mescaline with Marijuana | DMT Dab Bongs | UFO Technology! Shpongle
     
|
MysticMoteToter



Registered: 07/26/15
Posts: 2,036
Loc: Who nose.
Last seen: 4 hours, 41 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#23371977 - 06/22/16 11:48 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
the only real difference i have noticed is some genetics seem to give heavier body highs and are more/less potent by weight
the actual trip is mostly set and setting in my opinion
edit: i've only had cubes though
-------------------- Half Homo Hardly Sapient Overview Effect Fuck War, Feed Birds.
Edited by MysticMoteToter (06/22/16 11:50 PM)
|
Pandemoon
Ἧeẍeᾐmeḭsṫeŗ ͛


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 5,844
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 hours, 30 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: MysticMoteToter]
#23372970 - 06/23/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Oh man, just by now I realize how f***ed up this multispore-situation really is.
I have always bought me growboxes fully colonized and ready for fruiting here at a shroomery-supporting-vendor. Of course they are colonized with an isolated mycelium because all of the growing mushrooms are identical in their physical appearance and that's the only possible reason why all boxes of the same "strain" grow the same fruits. Now if I were to take sporeprints from one of these mushrooms I would have multispore mycelium again untill I isolate small parts by myself on agar. This new isolate can have any shape of cubensis possible, it can easily look like golden teacher or mazatapec -strain, but you don't know the shape of the isolated mushrooms untill you grow them, do you?
Doesn't buying spores always lead to multispore-agar in the first place? I mean a fruitbody always drops "multispores", no matter if it's an isolated clone or not (the opposite would make the process of isolation totally unnecessary). So isolation works with mycelium only. Therefore spores of one specific strain just cannot exist, and selling them labled as "strain X" is absolutly fraud. Right? 
Have never thought about that from this point of view before because of the already isolated mushrooms I keept growing over the years.
-
|
Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,221
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 26 minutes, 33 seconds
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon] 2
#23373035 - 06/23/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
You can't get different strains from the same spores of one mushroom - just alterations in potency and size, generally they will all look the same(same color and "look")
They sell spores as a certain strain because they are from a specific type of mushroom. Multispore doesnt = multistrain that would mean a seed of a Maple tree also sprouts a Oak
|
filthyknees
no coincidence


Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6,283
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon] 1
#23373048 - 06/23/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Pandemoon -Yes, to a large extent. Over many many generations the actual spores themselves become narrowed. IE if you take spore print from the largest fruit over ~20 different grows consecutively (ms>grain>print largest cap>>new grow with those spores>grain>print largest cap ect ect x18 more generations it does slightly limit the genetics. But for growers in hobby stuff that is not practical so we use tissue samples and proper storage to preserve traits.
Mushrooms =\\= plants
-------------------- But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow That it's one thing to try and another to fly You get there quicker just a step at a time It's one thing to bark, another to bite The show ain't over till you pack up at night
|
Pandemoon
Ἧeẍeᾐmeḭsṫeŗ ͛


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 5,844
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 14 hours, 30 minutes
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
#23373626 - 06/23/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Wow, "multispore != multistrain", now I got the picture! 
Thanks to both of you!
-
|
guyute22
Ugly Pig


Registered: 07/27/15
Posts: 504
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23373959 - 06/23/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
healing said: So if someone thinks that they can tell the difference between advertised varieties, or "strains" of psilocybe cubensis, they are deluding themselves. There is some other factor that might be causing the similarity or difference of trips, like the advertised name itself, the set, setting, or dosage, or in fact there is no discernible difference or "strain" similarity being experienced, and the perceived similarity or difference is just an artifact of the very assumption that all Golden Teachers are somehow similar applied post hoc.
I tend to want to agree, but there are some nagging facts that are hard to ignore.
Let me start with 3 pictures of 3 different strains (not my pics):



Anyone who has any experience whatsoever can identify these three strains. APE, AA+, KSSS. Easy.
I personally have grown all three strains, from spores, and observed the same phenotype as seen in the pictures, and based on spending (wasting) countless hours perusing threads on this website, it is quite easy to pick out these strains, and others, when grown in different conditions, around the world, on various substrates.
So WHY, can these unique genetic traits of appearance be selected, stabilized, and carried through spore print after spore print, but unique traits of potentcy, or alkaloid contnet, or trip type or whatever you want to call it, not be?
--------------------
Edited by guyute22 (06/23/16 02:14 PM)
|
kyu
Psychonaughty

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 334
Last seen: 6 days, 15 hours
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom]
#23374054 - 06/23/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DrMushroom said: Not just cubensis, but other mushrooms too such as pan cyans for example. How is it there is so much difference in the types of effects people experience from a strain to strain basis, ontop of species, when all have the same active compound(s). Is it non-active compounds that can dramatically change even between strains that alter the effects of psilocin? Because there is probably 100 different other chemicals in there that its not reasonable to put the effort into to identify between strains.
Ultimately psilocin is psilocin. But when you consume a certain cubensis strain compared to another by the psilocin content, its possible to have a speedy high on one while a more visual high on the other. One idea i had was that the psilocin was present in numerous analogues, similar to how ephedra contains both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and different strains/species alter their ratios.
So whats going on exactly?
I'm sure it's mostly because you expect it to be different. Set has a magic influence. Also, other substances and health state play a great role. Trips after caffeine (valerian root, mj, sleep deprivation, daily stress, ...) are completely different. Conditions of growth and storage are important. If mushrooms are a bit contaminated, this may lead to heavier trips (even if you don't notice intoxication). I have had such experience. Also, potency matters. Weak mushies feel heavier for stomach and body and tend to give slow dark trips. Potent ones more often give bright visuals, light mood, and so on.
I mostly use Ecuador cubes but also tried Cambodian, Z, B+, and exotic Ps. Mexicana.
They were different, but so were trips on the same strain. I have had very surprisingly different experiences on the same Ecuador. I wouldn't believe it's the same substance if I didn't know it. Even LSD (and maybe even NBOME) was not so different from mushrooms as mushrooms themselves.
-------------------- You gave me a wonderful, wonderful world, And you gave me eyes to see it, And you gave me LSD to open them.
|
kyu
Psychonaughty

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 334
Last seen: 6 days, 15 hours
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: guyute22]
#23374073 - 06/23/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
guyute22 said: So WHY, can these unique genetic traits of appearance be selected, stabilized, and carried through spore print after spore print, but unique traits of potentcy, or alkaloid contnet, or trip type or whatever you want to call it, not be?
Thanks for fantastic photos!
Let me answer with another question: should blotters, microdots or rectal suppositories with LSD give different trips?
Yes! But just because of different substance amount, different absorbtion time, different impurities that they may contain. Not because of name or appearance.
-------------------- You gave me a wonderful, wonderful world, And you gave me eyes to see it, And you gave me LSD to open them.
|
Ethric

Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 163
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23374097 - 06/23/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
You are wrong @healing..
Gymnopilus junonius in example, it's called "Laughing Cap" because besides psylocybin this mushroom contains bis-noryangonin and hispidine, which are structurally related to alpha-pyrones found in kava.
Different mushrooms can contain different chemicals.
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: guyute22]
#23374253 - 06/23/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
guyute22 said: Anyone who has any experience whatsoever can identify these three strains. APE, AA+, KSSS. Easy.
Yassah yassah, love that KSSS pic. 
My KSSS:

They were awesome and interesting.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (06/23/16 04:03 PM)
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Ethric]
#23374349 - 06/23/16 04:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
guyute22 said:
Quote:
healing said: So if someone thinks that they can tell the difference between advertised varieties, or "strains" of psilocybe cubensis, they are deluding themselves. There is some other factor that might be causing the similarity or difference of trips, like the advertised name itself, the set, setting, or dosage, or in fact there is no discernible difference or "strain" similarity being experienced, and the perceived similarity or difference is just an artifact of the very assumption that all Golden Teachers are somehow similar applied post hoc.
I tend to want to agree, but there are some nagging facts that are hard to ignore.
Let me start with 3 pictures of 3 different strains (not my pics):



Anyone who has any experience whatsoever can identify these three strains. APE, AA+, KSSS. Easy.
I personally have grown all three strains, from spores, and observed the same phenotype as seen in the pictures, and based on spending (wasting) countless hours perusing threads on this website, it is quite easy to pick out these strains, and others, when grown in different conditions, around the world, on various substrates.
So WHY, can these unique genetic traits of appearance be selected, stabilized, and carried through spore print after spore print, but unique traits of potentcy, or alkaloid contnet, or trip type or whatever you want to call it, not be?
Those are exceptions in that they are readily identifiable by their visible characteristics, or their potency.
For a strain to be identifiable by its alkaloid profile, that alkaloid profile would have to be selected for by the person stabilizing the variety. This is not a common practice as it's considerably more difficult than selecting for a visible phenotype. The one well known variety for which this has been done is Penis Envy.
Quote:
Ethric said: You are wrong @healing..
Gymnopilus junonius in example, it's called "Laughing Cap" because besides psylocybin this mushroom contains bis-noryangonin and hispidine, which are structurally related to alpha-pyrones found in kava.
Different mushrooms can contain different chemicals.
That's true. Different species of mushrooms are known to produce different effects. I was specifically talking about varieties of psilocybe cubensis, not about other species of mushrooms.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
Edited by healing (06/23/16 04:39 PM)
|
Snazz
Polymath



Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23374983 - 06/23/16 07:37 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Organic molecules actually have a ton of variation with the same atoms. Chiral, isomers, etc.
|
stupididiot
Stranger

Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 187
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Snazz]
#23375215 - 06/23/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
the organic matter is going to have an effect on rate of oxidation etc too.
too many things, and then some (we haven't thought about).
--------------------------------
the "argument" is pretty null and void though, either you "think" you can tell a difference or you "think" you can't.
nobody is right or wrong... such is the nature of psychadelics, no ?
(i am glad i am one of the "think there is a difference" people; more fun for meeeeeeeeeeeeee (imho))
like i like to eat the mushroom (on wholism) and not try and quantify the molecular compounds etc...
have noted varying degrees in bodyload / trip "intensity" (as in "magic" not relative quantity of effect etc).
-------------------
BUT > having said that, if say you grew 3 "strains" of cubes at the same time > sampled all > THEN at the end, could you pick a "favourite" (i think i definately could)
so is that not suggestive, that there IS a difference ? (denoted by preferance).
|
guyute22
Ugly Pig


Registered: 07/27/15
Posts: 504
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
#23376564 - 06/24/16 08:16 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
healing said: For a strain to be identifiable by its alkaloid profile, that alkaloid profile would have to be selected for by the person stabilizing the variety. This is not a common practice as it's considerably more difficult than selecting for a visible phenotype. The one well known variety for which this has been done is Penis Envy.
Would you consider that perhaps, when stabilizing the strain (be it PE, GT, CRS, or whatever) that you are stabilizing ALL (or most) genetic traits of that strain? Why would there be little variability in visible phenotype, but still be greater variability in alkaloid profile?
--------------------
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: guyute22]
#23377406 - 06/24/16 12:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
guyute22 said:
Quote:
healing said: For a strain to be identifiable by its alkaloid profile, that alkaloid profile would have to be selected for by the person stabilizing the variety. This is not a common practice as it's considerably more difficult than selecting for a visible phenotype. The one well known variety for which this has been done is Penis Envy.
Would you consider that perhaps, when stabilizing the strain (be it PE, GT, CRS, or whatever) that you are stabilizing ALL (or most) genetic traits of that strain? Why would there be little variability in visible phenotype, but still be greater variability in alkaloid profile?
There would have to be some kind of selection for that trait taking place for that to occur.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
stupididiot
Stranger

Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 187
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
|
Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: guyute22]
#23377452 - 06/24/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
because phenotype is an organisms visible effect of the environment on genotype.
genotype is genes, and humans can not see the genes, only get a "representation" of them, via a lab with analysis.
phenotypes are observed,
i am pretty sure, if you "stabalise all genetic traits", then the organism can not reproduce (as no genetics available for pairing, other then own, thus no chance at creating a next generation (??)).
ALSO, human science is still very very much, at the early stages of understanding genetics, like how we are finding new chemicals / interactions between things the human race has been studying for years.
like discovery of cannabinoid receptors etc > we still don't relatively have a clue about the ins and outs of the interaction, only a basic concept of how they cross the blood-brain barrier etc.
like the genotype is reference to the genes, if there are aload of combinations available (non-homogenous parents), then there can be an exponential amount of phenotypes.
"phenotype" is a very very basic, observable account of the organism (and how it responds to the environment, where as "genotype" is too complex to get started with unless you have a lab etc, unless used simply to denote the available genes (collectively) from parents / history.
i think...
|
|