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OfflineHeadrush
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
    #23369433 - 06/22/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Cube is a cube, trips will be different each time. Power of suggestion is unavoidable.
  -
I blended cubes Into consistent powder and capsulized. The material is consistent but trips never are. I agree the subspecies of cubes is non existent.


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InvisiblePassiveMenis
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Headrush]
    #23369521 - 06/22/16 10:11 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

With other species though, there's the question about baeocystin or whatever


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
    #23370101 - 06/22/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?

I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.




You are making the claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. I'm saying they can't. It's impossible to provide proof of a negative. In other words. It's impossible to prove that that they can't. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person disputing the claim. I'm disputing your claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. Now you need to provide proof. That's how burden of proof works.

It's not like scientists form hypotheses and then just say, "Well you can't prove that it isn't supported, so therefore it must be supported!" That makes no sense.





I never claimed people could tell the difference, I said they might be able to. You are making the claim that they can't, so if the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim, it falls on you, sir.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (06/22/16 02:21 PM)


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23370482 - 06/22/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

healing said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?

I am saying, the idea that different strains cannot produce different effects is a hypotheses just like the idea that they can. You are more than welcome to hold to that hypotheses without providing proof, but that doesn't mean its correct.




You are making the claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. I'm saying they can't. It's impossible to provide proof of a negative. In other words. It's impossible to prove that that they can't. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person disputing the claim. I'm disputing your claim that people can tell the difference between different "strains" of cubensis. Now you need to provide proof. That's how burden of proof works.

It's not like scientists form hypotheses and then just say, "Well you can't prove that it isn't supported, so therefore it must be supported!" That makes no sense.





I never claimed people could tell the difference, I said they might be able to. You are making the claim that they can't, so if the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim, it falls on you, sir.




:facepalm:


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
    #23370511 - 06/22/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Look its simple. The question is, do different strains have different effects? Its easy enough to test, just get some people and dont tell them which is which and see if they can tell the difference.

Until then that is done we dont know if there is a difference or not. You can dispute the claim that there is, but that doesn't mean its for sure that there isn't. And I can dispute the claim of anyone who says for sure there isn't, because its not for sure.

Its just like generic vs brand name medication. There isn't supposed to be a difference. However, that doesnt mean its impossible for there to be a difference and in some cases there has been. Just because a patient who claims there is a difference can't prove it, doesn't mean the Dr is automatically right if he says there are the same.

Burden of proof means you can't just go believing the patient because he says there is a difference with no proof. Obviously its the burden of proof would be on him. But that doesn't mean you can just assume there is no difference either. For all you know, there could be. So just because a claim lacks proof, doesn't mean the opposite is true.

What is it about this you dont understand?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (06/22/16 05:01 PM)


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23370718 - 06/22/16 06:01 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Look its simple. The question is, do different strains have different effects? Its easy enough to test, just get some people and dont tell them which is which and see if they can tell the difference.

Until then that is done we dont know if there is a difference or not. You can dispute the claim that there is, but that doesn't mean its for sure that there isn't. And I can dispute the claim of anyone who says for sure there isn't, because its not for sure.





Right. So the next step is for the person who is claiming that there is a difference in effects to provide evidence.

And it's a little bit more complicated than that. You need a large enough sample size, the test has to be double blind, and you have to have a low enough p-value to prove that it's not just luck. But more importantly, there's all of the mycological problems associated with such a test, since the test would be based on the faulty definition of a strain that is used primarily as a marketing tactic by spore producers.

If you can't even determine that a fruit body of a particular strain belongs to a particular advertised variety, then how can you expect to test the effects of that advertised variety?

I would say that it's entirely possible for a person to differentiate between two strains of mushrooms, but it's impossible to differentiate between two "strains" of mushrooms because genetically, there's really no such thing.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
    #23370741 - 06/22/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

that might be true if we are talking about golden teachers from one spore vendor grown by person x and golden teachers from another vendor grown by person y, but if one person was growing and kept differing colonies separate from each other its quite possible there could be a difference between them.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23371205 - 06/22/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

just think about the amount of different genetic combination could happen within one medium sized spore print.

millions of different spore combinations--> different genetics.

don't think there is much more to it than that. :shrug:


if you don't want such consistent differences use clones and all your mushrooms will be genetically narrowed to produce consistently. agar.


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


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OfflineLuzaW
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23371271 - 06/22/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Proof of a negative? Not how logic works? What is that supposed to mean?




you may find this free course helpful in understanding basic logic principles

http://oli.cmu.edu/courses/free-open/logic-proofs-course-details/


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23371586 - 06/22/16 09:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
that might be true if we are talking about golden teachers from one spore vendor grown by person x and golden teachers from another vendor grown by person y, but if one person was growing and kept differing colonies separate from each other its quite possible there could be a difference between them.




That's true, but if you were to say that all Golden Teachers are alike, or that all Cambodians are different from Golden Teachers, that's just empirically incorrect.

So if someone thinks that they can tell the difference between advertised varieties, or "strains" of psilocybe cubensis, they are deluding themselves. There is some other factor that might be causing the similarity or difference of trips, like the advertised name itself, the set, setting, or dosage, or in fact there is no discernible difference or "strain" similarity being experienced, and the perceived similarity or difference is just an artifact of the very assumption that all Golden Teachers are somehow similar applied post hoc.


--------------------
Open mind, open heart, open book.



Edited by healing (06/22/16 10:07 PM)


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Offlinerajabrokes
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
    #23371680 - 06/22/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

With cubes the growing substrate does tend to make big differences.  A cube is a cube, but still.


--------------------
Really though we are not living in a scientific or technological age.  Today human life is dominated by a hateful and greedy form of stasis which stands in the way of a coming technological age.  One where there is hope for the future for example, instead of fear.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #23371792 - 06/22/16 10:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
It's a good question, and I attribute it to small amounts of other actives, perhaps some that haven't ever really been characterized.  Mushrooms are excellent at producing chemicals and have a lot of genetic ability to do that.

I've had consistent yet very different trips from different strains of cubes.  And I've had trips of entirely different character to cubes from other species.





Exactly.

Different species contain different ratios of psychoactives in them, that contribute to the overall feel of the trip.

Ive had fresh wild Pan cyans that feel very different than cubes. Pan cyans are my favorite.

Ps cyans (woodlover) on the other hand, is quite similar to strong cubenis brought from dealers.


--------------------
"What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin

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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23371977 - 06/22/16 11:48 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

the only real difference i have noticed is some genetics seem to give heavier body highs and are more/less potent by weight
:shrug: the actual trip is mostly set and setting in my opinion

edit: i've only had cubes though


--------------------

:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



Edited by MysticMoteToter (06/22/16 11:50 PM)


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #23372970 - 06/23/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Oh man, just by now I realize how f***ed up this multispore-situation really is.

I have always bought me growboxes fully colonized and ready for fruiting here at a shroomery-supporting-vendor. Of course they are colonized with an isolated mycelium because all of the growing mushrooms are identical in their physical appearance and that's the only possible reason why all boxes of the same "strain" grow the same fruits.
Now if I were to take sporeprints from one of these mushrooms I would have multispore mycelium again untill I isolate small parts by myself on agar. This new isolate can have any shape of cubensis possible, it can easily look like golden teacher or mazatapec -strain, but you don't know the shape of the isolated mushrooms untill you grow them, do you?

Doesn't buying spores always lead to multispore-agar in the first place? I mean a fruitbody always drops "multispores", no matter if it's an isolated clone or not (the opposite would make the process of isolation totally unnecessary). So isolation works with mycelium only. Therefore spores of one specific strain just cannot exist, and selling them labled as "strain X" is absolutly fraud. Right? :laugh:

Have never thought about that from this point of view before because of the already isolated mushrooms I keept growing over the years.

-


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon] * 2
    #23373035 - 06/23/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You can't get different strains from the same spores of one mushroom - just alterations in potency and size, generally they will all look the same(same color and "look")

They sell spores as a certain strain because they are from a specific type of mushroom. Multispore doesnt = multistrain that would mean a seed of a Maple tree also sprouts a Oak :lol:


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon] * 1
    #23373048 - 06/23/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Pandemoon -Yes, to a large extent. Over many many generations the actual spores themselves become narrowed. IE if you take spore print from the largest fruit over ~20 different grows consecutively (ms>grain>print largest cap>>new grow with those spores>grain>print largest cap ect ect x18 more generations it does slightly limit the genetics. But for growers in hobby stuff that is not practical so we use tissue samples and proper storage to preserve traits.

Mushrooms =\\= plants


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
    #23373626 - 06/23/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Wow, "multispore != multistrain", now I got the picture! :cookiemonster:

Thanks to both of you!

-


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Offlineguyute22
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: healing]
    #23373959 - 06/23/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

healing said:
So if someone thinks that they can tell the difference between advertised varieties, or "strains" of psilocybe cubensis, they are deluding themselves. There is some other factor that might be causing the similarity or difference of trips, like the advertised name itself, the set, setting, or dosage, or in fact there is no discernible difference or "strain" similarity being experienced, and the perceived similarity or difference is just an artifact of the very assumption that all Golden Teachers are somehow similar applied post hoc.




I tend to want to agree, but there are some nagging facts that are hard to ignore.

Let me start with 3 pictures of 3 different strains (not my pics):








Anyone who has any experience whatsoever can identify these three strains.  APE, AA+, KSSS.  Easy.

I personally have grown all three strains, from spores, and observed the same phenotype as seen in the pictures, and based on spending (wasting) countless hours perusing threads on this website, it is quite easy to pick out these strains, and others, when grown in different conditions, around the world, on various substrates.

So WHY, can these unique genetic traits of appearance be selected, stabilized, and carried through spore print after spore print, but unique traits of potentcy, or alkaloid contnet, or trip type or whatever you want to call it, not be?


--------------------


Edited by guyute22 (06/23/16 02:14 PM)


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Offlinekyu
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: DrMushroom]
    #23374054 - 06/23/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DrMushroom said:
Not just cubensis, but other mushrooms too such as pan cyans for example.
How is it there is so much difference in the types of effects people experience from a strain to strain basis, ontop of species, when all have the same active compound(s).
Is it non-active compounds that can dramatically change even between strains that alter the effects of psilocin? Because there is probably 100 different other chemicals in there that its not reasonable to put the effort into to identify between strains.

Ultimately psilocin is psilocin. But when you consume a certain cubensis strain compared to another by the psilocin content, its possible to have a speedy high on one while a more visual high on the other.
One idea i had was that the psilocin was present in numerous analogues, similar to how ephedra contains both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and different strains/species alter their ratios.

So whats going on exactly?




I'm sure it's mostly because you expect it to be different. Set has a magic influence. Also, other substances and health state play a great role. Trips after caffeine (valerian root, mj, sleep deprivation, daily stress, ...) are completely different.
Conditions of growth and storage are important. If mushrooms are a bit contaminated, this may lead to heavier trips (even if you don't notice intoxication). I have had such experience.
Also, potency matters. Weak mushies feel heavier for stomach and body and tend to give slow dark trips. Potent ones more often give bright visuals, light mood, and so on.

I mostly use Ecuador cubes but also tried Cambodian, Z, B+, and exotic Ps. Mexicana.

They were different, but so were trips on the same strain. I have had very surprisingly different experiences on the same Ecuador. I wouldn't believe it's the same substance if I didn't know it. Even LSD (and maybe even NBOME) was not so different from mushrooms as mushrooms themselves.


--------------------
You gave me a wonderful, wonderful world,
And you gave me eyes to see it,
And you gave me LSD to open them.


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Offlinekyu
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Re: Why is it there is such consistent differences in trips between cube strains or psilocin shrooms [Re: guyute22]
    #23374073 - 06/23/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

guyute22 said:
So WHY, can these unique genetic traits of appearance be selected, stabilized, and carried through spore print after spore print, but unique traits of potentcy, or alkaloid contnet, or trip type or whatever you want to call it, not be?




Thanks for fantastic photos!

Let me answer with another question: should blotters, microdots or rectal suppositories with LSD give different trips?

Yes! But just because of different substance amount, different absorbtion time, different impurities that they may contain. Not because of name or appearance.


--------------------
You gave me a wonderful, wonderful world,
And you gave me eyes to see it,
And you gave me LSD to open them.


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