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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: the case of the two masks (thought experiment). [Re: millzy]
#23364899 - 06/20/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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millzy said: we had a federal assault rifle ban in place for ten years. it was not renewed in '04, but states like connecticut and new york have had bans on the rifles; today the SCOTUS upheld a lower court's denial of an appeal to their ban.
I didn't know that, but that's not the point. That's about the issue and we're discussing philosophy. Philosophy is about fine distinctions and you're not even distinguishing between the ban proposal and the ban itself.
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: the case of the two masks (thought experiment). [Re: millzy]
#23364923 - 06/20/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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millzy said: you have a good point here about how people should consider all sides of an issue before deciding on it. i agree. 1000%. but that's your assertion, not mine. my assertion is about the nature of the policy itself. it's not about people; it's about rules and what ends they serve. your criticism is so far removed from what i'm trying to look at that it's meaningless.
You said your hypothesis is about moral intuitions. Where exactly do moral intuitions come from if not people? My criticism is that the part of the issue you are claiming to try to look at is so far removed from the actual issue as to be meaningless.
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well we do have bans on the weapons i'm referring to. so my experiment would have at least a modicum of relevance because of that. see my previous post.
That doesn't give your experiment relevance. What would give your experiment relevance is if it actually said anything relevant about the issue you are claiming to talk about.
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i don't think you understand what i'm going for. that might be my fault though. i should've done a better job of explaining everything up front.
I understand what you are going for. I'm saying what you are going for doesn't have any bearing on the real world issue of assault weapons bans. What is the point of a thought experiment if it doesn't have any actual meaningful implications?
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: the case of the two masks (thought experiment). [Re: clock_of_omens]
#23365584 - 06/21/16 01:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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my hypothesis is that people largely do not understand why they really want the assault rifle ban in the first place, hence the possible inconsistencies in their intuitions about it when compared to scenarios that are similar in the narrow way that i have described on the outset, i.e. scenarios hat involve personal liberty, consumerism and seemingly unavoidable harms (i.e. mass shootings, child molestation and unjust suicide).
i believe the real reason why people seem to want to ban assault rifles seems to speak to upholding our moral code rather than it being part of an effective strategy for reducing harms. other policies may be more preventative with mass shootings, e.g. closing the background check loopholes for online gun purchases and gun shows, but the assault rifle ban seems to mostly send a message about our values. similarly, i think the real reason people won't stand for 'pedophile masks' or 'suicide masks' is because they do not wish to allow the message that allowing the sale of those products sends, even though banning the sale of either one or both would do virtually nothing to stop child molestation and/or unjust suicide.
i chose child molestation and euthanasia because i thought i could create scenarios that people would strongly react to, but perhaps not in a consistent way because, as you've said, the similarities on the surface are not apparent. some have had strong moral intuitions with the 'pedophile mask' and some have had strong moral intuitions with the 'suicide mask'. but i haven't seen anyone state that both are impermissible along with the assault rifle ban. none are morally permissible in my view.
i think it's meaningful to understand why we have policies, especially at the general level, especially when it comes to policies that pertain to current issues and events. that may not be relevant to you. it may not even be philosophy to you. but that's just part of participating in the marketplace of ideas i suppose. at this point, i really don't care anymore.
i'm done here for now. thanks again for the feedback.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (06/21/16 01:33 AM)
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clock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: the case of the two masks (thought experiment). [Re: millzy]
#23366046 - 06/21/16 07:46 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, I see what you're doing, I suspected as much. Your hypothesis is based on your armchair psychologizing. You think that the reasons people give for what they think aren't their actual reasons. Instead their real reason, which they just don't realize, is the simplistic one you're claiming. Ridiculous
You've formulated this hypothesis that people's moral intuitions are confused. You've set up this experiment and asked people what they think. People come back with varied reasons based on the relevant details and you claim that looking at the details is against your rules. Looking at the details and coming to conclusions opposite the ones you think people should come to is somehow evidence to you that your hypothesis is correct. In reality, those details are what actually matters to forming a relevant moral judgement. You've devised an experiment in which your hypothesis is always correct because any time someone comes up with a different answer, you assume their intuitions are confused. What situation in your mind could possible prove your hypothesis false? It seems to me there are none for you. If you set up a scientific experiment to test a hypothesis in this way, you would be doing bad science. As it is, you are doing bad philosophy.
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i'm done here for now. thanks again for the feedback.
Sorry you can't handle a little criticism.
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