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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineCLIT
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what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves?
    #23353482 - 06/17/16 02:58 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Ever had a group of people that start believing their own lies about someone, his/her self, a group of people, a set of events, etc?

Example 1: waitress claims she can pull $400 a night when she was waiting tables yet why she's delivering pizzas?

Example 2: Guy 1 tells another guy 2 that some guy 3 was talking shit about him (guy 2), just to start drama between guy 2 and guy 3. No one knows the facts except guy 1 (the drama starter), yet all parties started believing their own lies (except guy 3 who was just there at the wrong time).

They know it's a lie, yet they start to believe it as the truth as if they can't handle the truth. What do they get out of it? Are they trying to change the facts to favor the lies they created in their own heads?

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Offlinetump
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CLIT]
    #23353566 - 06/17/16 04:06 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Correct its about changeing the fact of what you believe. The reason poly graphs aren't trusted in court because we after lie to ourself and trick ourshelves into thinking its the truth. Then it becomes the truth. And your mind won't know the different so a poly graph test wont even show it when you lie. Guy 1 is a dick

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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CLIT]
    #23353574 - 06/17/16 04:13 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ever had a group of people that start believing their own lies about someone, his/her self, a group of people, a set of events, etc?





It's probably to create a sense of hope. :imo:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: tump] * 4
    #23353577 - 06/17/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

editing of the story for any reason leads to revision of memory -
lying is part of the embarrassing truth that memory is not a dependable record of events as they occurred.

it's an embarrassing truth because our personalities are made of that fallible fabric.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23353589 - 06/17/16 04:31 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not so sure I would use the word embarrassing, but it's certainly a good reminder that you can't trust your thoughts. I kinda like it. It makes me take them less seriously when I stay in a state of awareness of this fact; I can laugh at them for the bizarre twistings of reality they so often become (or perhaps always are?).

Staying in that state of mind is the hard part. It only takes a rising of negative emotion when not paying attention and you can find yourself very soon stuck back in the cage of thought. It's caught me in that cycle so many times over the past year now. Break out -> feel free -> see clearly -> idly think about the pain of the past year -> get caught in the cage of suffering -> spend weeks thinking about how hard everything is on me right now -> breakout -> Repeat, do not collect $200 but spend it on drugs anyway to try and kill the pain, Repeat, etc, etc.

It's all such fucking delusion man. Like, it's definitely not what my thoughts make it all out to be when I'm stuck with them. If there's one thing and one thing only I could dedicate the rest of my life to, it's learning how to consistently know that my thoughts are made of that 'fallible fabric' (like that) - nothing more, nothing less.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CLIT]
    #23353702 - 06/17/16 05:56 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I think what you are getting at is largely peer pressure at an early age, herd mentality at all ages, and collectivism in this age.

G. Edward Griffin is an amazing researcher who digs into things like the Fed and fiat currency. He also talks about collectivism.  He even talks about aerosol spraying aka chemtrails the slang word that helps to spread the lie that it isn't happening.  See, those crazy conspiracy theorists must be lying about these persistent contrails that never existed before and have no physical reason to happen!  But, we'd better believe the official story and not believe anything that will make us feel bad even as we feel bad.

Why do we believe the lies, perhaps that's the more important topic.  We believe the lies because to not believe them was a problem.  It's easier to keep drinking the Kool Aide and keep taking those helpful vaccines because if you don't you get attacked by the masses.  It's easier to believe a plane can go through a hole in a wall because "the wings folded back".  It's easier to believe another plane melted into some soft dirt.  It's easier to believe another plane went through a building intact, must have had much stronger wings than the one that hit the wall.

And so on.  People are gullible, it's easy to lie to them and have them believe it, if you make them feel better about your lie than if you hadn't lied.  As long as everyone believes everything happened a certain way, those that don't become the unbelieving heathens deserving of righteous scorn.  We see it on this forum, the herding of the sheep by pris and enlil.  It's routine.  Herd herd herd here sheep this is a lie go back to grazing.

Collectivism vs. individualism





--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (06/17/16 06:03 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23353706 - 06/17/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

i question the idea of 'breaking out'.. change is possible, and can likely refocus/transform/expand your thought processes.. but 'break out' of them??


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23353709 - 06/17/16 06:04 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

i dont think the OP is so complicated. people lie to themselves/others for any number of reasons.. as redgreenvines pointed out embarrassment is certainly one of them.. saving face socially, insecurity, shame etc..

person 1 might be lying out of embarrassment at their real situation.. person 2 might just be a shit stirrer who is bored and a bad friend.. :shrug2:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

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OfflineMaroon
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: quinn]
    #23353754 - 06/17/16 06:30 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Peoples ego plays a big part in it I would think.


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: Maroon]
    #23354225 - 06/17/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Freud would say its due to the super ego,

Who we wish ourselves to be.

But lying to yourself seems to be immature behavior.
Honesty can lead to improvement and actual fulfillment of the super ego.

Self actualization.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: hTx] * 1
    #23354603 - 06/17/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I've lied through my teeth to get laid, have led people on that I was into the idea of a romantic relationship when I truly wasn't, things I'm profoundly ashamed of.  I'm getting better as I've grown older to value honesty above all other things.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CLIT]
    #23354974 - 06/17/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I also think Redgreenvines is on point.

In a way we are always fabricating, or living out our lives in an impressionistic way, even if we are not intentionally deceitful. So when it comes out that we are, it is embarrassing, a social reprobation; sort of the "gotcha red handed" moment. And some of you love this, I see... Sniffing around. :tongue: Well we all do ey? It is the game we play.

But it is not only cognition, or memory that is less certain than we think. People aren't particularly stupid to believe their lives and personalities. And people who do, are not just those people over there. Come on now. If we are following our noses, after all, this should imply impartiality. There is a hint that truth itself, that is sought, is conditional in general, for all of us. Just follow the nose.

If you walk into an establishment with your gold coins, people will take your proposition first, or the implied correctness, "correspondence" of truth that belongs to language. Implicitly, when you put the coins on the table, whether you say it or not, it is as if to say "it is true that these are gold coins."

In a way it is natural to value propositional truth. It's human even. The linguistic "proposition" or "argument", seems to be especially important in contemporary anglo-American philosophy as a table (for instance, logicians speak of their "truth tables") for the implicit form of truth. It could perhaps well be said that we value the contingency of making certain kinds of statements, the way we talk, around this table, even more than truth itself.

With the seriousness in which language is taken in modern philosophy, we also have a particularly moralistic concept of rational life, implying seeking truth and finding truth; or the integrity and honesty of this activity of truth seeking in our culture, in our correspondences. It is pretty unique to us. In part it is a testament that goes all the way back to Plato, (who described knowledge and our dialogues as a "virtue") but at the same time this virtue of truth, is something thoroughly modern.

And if we were to really examine these conceptions we can come to a simple question: What is propositional truth of our language referring to, aside from a table or baseline in something implicitly correct, or such a correspondence we ourselves represent and take for granted?

No doubt is said, that our propositional truths refer to material truth. So for instance, we can come to this table at the shop and examine further, are these coins "true gold"? This is not in what we just say of it, but literally a question of the physical nature of a piece of gold. The shopkeeper could look into a microscope, or like in an old western film, bite a tooth mark into a gold piece (Gold is a softer mineral than pyrite "fool's gold" for instance) to distinguish "true gold", the truth that belongs to material things. This is not just a proposition; it is a truth corresponding to, and apparently belonging to a thing. We connect the two.

But now, is it possible to ask, what makes "true gold", the truth belonging to the material true? Undoubtedly we proceed conventionally, and not exactly in a unified way. What is true, turns out to be a falsification of one thing, compared to another, which we call true, in true gold, in this sense. Or perhaps, this lends us to a possible falsification of a person's "word", who talks about gold, and says "it is true that this is true gold". We know, the material truth is really based on this, as something arbitrary. What our true gold is, itself, is in mainly how we take it as valuable, not just arbitrarily, but as such a rare and glittering geological mineral that it is, of course.

Yet can't we catch something in this? How about a question...?

Is it really at all truthful to extrapolate from the conveniently isolated, arbitrary logic in this situation (namely as we love to, in our questioning of others)? Maybe it is only "true" that this is what we do, and what is true is just what keeps things nice and orderly in a society. We take a convenient abstraction. Very easily, we tell the truth, or lie, and hold this to our implicit assumptions and ideals.

But truth itself, which arguably we have to conscience at least as much as anything, would then as a consequence be nothing more than something passed between hands, accompanying words passed back and forth between people. It would seem to be a correspondence of statements, to material truths, which correspond back to a designation, the nominal aspect of language we refer to; "gold". Is this way of coming circle, not a case the collective ascription of insignia and the forgotteness, in procession at once?

I would urge anyone to see; it is often just for an enduring faith that as a society, and convention, that we do not for some matter of circumstance place our selves into the embarrassing circumstance to look closer through all of this glitter and glare and gold to see how transparent it is. And more to the point maybe, I think the baseline, and common denominator is there for all of us - honest or dishonest.

Along with the suggestion that cognition is malleable; perhaps something people are overly blamable for (For instance: liars are not "stupid" or vice versa, we just find it particularly likable to say this), I'd propose that also, the form of truth, and the value given to it by society is itself basically impressionistic, and as much, fleeting.

We are all partial to this "lie", and this "forgetting"... So what would it imply, if the world as we conceive it, might actually (or more than we think) reflect an essential limitation of cognition, or a simple moral convention of telling the truth, or lying, at the same time? Isn't this basically human?

Quote:

What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.

Friedrich Nietzsche; On Truth and Lies in a Non-moral Sense




Not a bad read:

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/Philosophers/Nietzsche/Truth_and_Lie_in_an_Extra-Moral_Sense.htm

Edited by Kurt (06/17/16 09:49 PM)

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23356985 - 06/18/16 06:54 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Honesty



Summer Highland Falls



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (06/18/16 07:02 AM)

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: quinn]
    #23357106 - 06/18/16 07:44 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
i question the idea of 'breaking out'.. change is possible, and can likely refocus/transform/expand your thought processes.. but 'break out' of them??



I say 'break out' in the sense of not being in the flow of them, but in finding the place from which one can observe them. I've been there a few times, it's the most wonderful state I know.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23360239 - 06/19/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I'm not so sure I would use the word embarrassing, but it's certainly a good reminder that you can't trust your thoughts. I kinda like it. It makes me take them less seriously when I stay in a state of awareness of this fact; I can laugh at them for the bizarre twistings of reality they so often become (or perhaps always are?).

Staying in that state of mind is the hard part. It only takes a rising of negative emotion when not paying attention and you can find yourself very soon stuck back in the cage of thought. It's caught me in that cycle so many times over the past year now. Break out -> feel free -> see clearly -> idly think about the pain of the past year -> get caught in the cage of suffering -> spend weeks thinking about how hard everything is on me right now -> breakout -> Repeat, do not collect $200 but spend it on drugs anyway to try and kill the pain, Repeat, etc, etc.

It's all such fucking delusion man. Like, it's definitely not what my thoughts make it all out to be when I'm stuck with them. If there's one thing and one thing only I could dedicate the rest of my life to, it's learning how to consistently know that my thoughts are made of that 'fallible fabric' (like that) - nothing more, nothing less.



I just read through this (talk about fallible - while scanning I may have been looking for keyword reactions in my self, and I did not read the content of your comments)
which is another example of the point you make:
one does not stay in a state of awareness of one's own fallibility.
but you can keep returning to an awareness that allows for things to be as they naturally are, i.e.
massive ongoing seemingly random association and experiencing and no solid memory to speak of.
to preserve the "truth" you have to write down fragments with the date, accumulate date stamped photos, and reconstruct your fluid sense of what happened with this collection of mementos.

hell, you want a good story that hangs together - then keep a diary.

basically you don't need any motive to lie, but if you have an obvious one,
you may as well try to lie since,
despicable as it may seem, revision of history is the status quo.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23360289 - 06/19/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I'm not so sure I would use the word embarrassing, but it's certainly a good reminder that you can't trust your thoughts. I kinda like it. It makes me take them less seriously when I stay in a state of awareness of this fact; I can laugh at them for the bizarre twistings of reality they so often become (or perhaps always are?).

Staying in that state of mind is the hard part. It only takes a rising of negative emotion when not paying attention and you can find yourself very soon stuck back in the cage of thought. It's caught me in that cycle so many times over the past year now. Break out -> feel free -> see clearly -> idly think about the pain of the past year -> get caught in the cage of suffering -> spend weeks thinking about how hard everything is on me right now -> breakout -> Repeat, do not collect $200 but spend it on drugs anyway to try and kill the pain, Repeat, etc, etc.

It's all such fucking delusion man. Like, it's definitely not what my thoughts make it all out to be when I'm stuck with them. If there's one thing and one thing only I could dedicate the rest of my life to, it's learning how to consistently know that my thoughts are made of that 'fallible fabric' (like that) - nothing more, nothing less.



I just read through this (talk about fallible - while scanning I may have been looking for keyword reactions in my self, and I did not read the content of your comments)
which is another example of the point you make:
one does not stay in a state of awareness of one's own fallibility.
but you can keep returning to an awareness that allows for things to be as they naturally are, i.e.
massive ongoing seemingly random association and experiencing and no solid memory to speak of.
to preserve the "truth" you have to write down fragments with the date, accumulate date stamped photos, and reconstruct your fluid sense of what happened with this collection of mementos.

hell, you want a good story that hangs together - then keep a diary.

basically you don't need any motive to lie, but if you have an obvious one,
you may as well try to lie since,
despicable as it may seem, revision of history is the status quo.




Ain't that the truth.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Loc: Portland, OR
Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23360298 - 06/19/16 09:38 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I'm not so sure I would use the word embarrassing, but it's certainly a good reminder that you can't trust your thoughts. I kinda like it. It makes me take them less seriously when I stay in a state of awareness of this fact; I can laugh at them for the bizarre twistings of reality they so often become (or perhaps always are?).

Staying in that state of mind is the hard part. It only takes a rising of negative emotion when not paying attention and you can find yourself very soon stuck back in the cage of thought. It's caught me in that cycle so many times over the past year now. Break out -> feel free -> see clearly -> idly think about the pain of the past year -> get caught in the cage of suffering -> spend weeks thinking about how hard everything is on me right now -> breakout -> Repeat, do not collect $200 but spend it on drugs anyway to try and kill the pain, Repeat, etc, etc.

It's all such fucking delusion man. Like, it's definitely not what my thoughts make it all out to be when I'm stuck with them. If there's one thing and one thing only I could dedicate the rest of my life to, it's learning how to consistently know that my thoughts are made of that 'fallible fabric' (like that) - nothing more, nothing less.



I just read through this (talk about fallible - while scanning I may have been looking for keyword reactions in my self, and I did not read the content of your comments)
which is another example of the point you make:
one does not stay in a state of awareness of one's own fallibility.
but you can keep returning to an awareness that allows for things to be as they naturally are, i.e.
massive ongoing seemingly random association and experiencing and no solid memory to speak of.
to preserve the "truth" you have to write down fragments with the date, accumulate date stamped photos, and reconstruct your fluid sense of what happened with this collection of mementos.

hell, you want a good story that hangs together - then keep a diary.

basically you don't need any motive to lie, but if you have an obvious one,
you may as well try to lie since,
despicable as it may seem, revision of history is the status quo.





Sometimes you surprise me with your lucidity.  Welcome back redgreenvines :cheers:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: what's the psychology behind people lying to themselves? [Re: CLIT]
    #23365252 - 06/20/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

We sometimes lie to uphold a self-image we have of ourselves.

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