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Offlinemothballs
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nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? (time to eat my humble pie)
    #23356317 - 06/17/16 11:25 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

i got disappointing results w a 5:1 horsepoo and straw bulk( hollow stems, weak potency, low yield) so I've got this idea to try to feed them what they like...could use your feed back... here's the plan:

15L wheat straw
3L horsepoo
1 cup blood meal
4 cups coffee grounds
5 cups worm castings
4 cups gypsum
10 cups verm
15 cups coco coir
1 gallon shit-water plus 6 TBS seaweed extract
4 TBS olive oil

it PHed at 7, steam pasteurized at 161 for 2 hours

would you add or subtract anything??????????

Edited by mothballs (08/05/16 08:46 PM)

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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: mothballs]
    #23356340 - 06/17/16 11:40 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I would only pasteurize for 1 hour.

Low potency and hollow stems wasn't because of the substrate. Potency is genetic. Hollow stems is part genetic part temperature related.

Yield could be genetic and/or conditions. The fact that it was straw and manure likely had little to do with low yield, it could have been how it was prepped.

As far as all the other ingredients go, make sure it's properly pasteurized. I don't know how experienced you are, but coffee gives a lot of people trouble and I've never seen anything that makes it seem worth the effort. I've never seen anything that makes  castings, bloodmeal, olive oil, or seaweed seem worth the effort either. Not saying don't do it, just saying I personally have not seen anything.

IMHO, I'd stick with manure, straw, coir, verm, and gypsum. Just the CVG if you want to skip the proper pasteurization process.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (06/18/16 12:05 AM)

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23356365 - 06/17/16 11:53 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I ain't seen shit either. :shrug:  Best grows I've ever seen were all CVG, with or without manure.  Never seen even a tiny shred of evidence that any particular additive other than maybe gypsum has such a positive effect that it outweighs the potential cons.

As stated, not trying to dissuade.  But if you're gonna forge ahead it could be a tough lonely road.

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Offlinemothballs
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Inocuole]
    #23356514 - 06/18/16 01:21 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

..an article that states something different,....and interesting.....

"A method for the production of 7.5 grams of psilocybin in less than a week and a half.

Typical Ps.C. cultures grown by various organic substrates achieve .4 - .6 alkaloid yields. Typical nutrient enhanced substrates achieve slightly higher yields of alkaloids. Liquid cultures can effectively achieve 1 - 1.1 alkaloid yields by making essential nutrients and carbohydrates easily available.

This is the general potency of this strain; attempts to further improve nutrient uptake will most likely only result in a higher biomass yield. In the instance of the introduction of tryptamine to yield 3% psilocin alkaloid, I view it as a novel biosynthesis mechanism, operating externally of the natural model of the organism.

Total biomass, although affected accumulatively, is proportional to carbohydrate uptake. I have heard unofficial reports of rapid growth with dextrose as well as organic honey, which is composed of multiple complex sugars. Perhaps a more efficient mixture of carbohydrates then just glucose could be developed.

Many funguses grow rapidly in an acidic environment (3 - 5 pH). Ours displays higher yields of alkaloids and biomass between 4 - 4.6 pH but loses durability and suffers from tissue damage and possible cellular ruption due to solution agitation during the process of aeration. I assume that the growth acceleration that occurs at a lower pH is because nutrients are able to permeate the cellular equilibrium easier. Taking advantage of this requires a device capable of aerating the solution without disturbing the mycelium.

This method of mycelium harvest is far superior to fruited bodies in relation to alkaloid yields, processing, extraction, and overall time.

Lets Pretend:

Glucose (C6H12O6) [1000 g]
Ammonium Succinate (NH4OOC-CH2-CH2-COO) [200 g]
Yeast Extract (Organic Compound) [100 g]
Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4-7H2O) [100 g]
Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) [20 g]
Thiamine Hydrochloride (C12H17ClN4OS HCl) [600 mg]
Ferrous Sulfate (FeSO4-7H2O) [500 mg]
Cupric Sulfate (CuSO4-5H2O) [100 mg]
Ammonium Heptamolybdate ((NH4)6Mo7O24-4H2O) [10 mg]
Manganese Chloride (MnCl2-4H2O) [7 mg]
Zinc Sulfate (ZnSO4-7H2O) [6 mg]
Water (H2O) [200 L]

Prepared in 55 Gallon (211L) drum and adjust to pH 5.5 with hydrochloric acid.

a. Lid is sealed and capped with a filtered pressure release valve.
b. Drum and solution is heat sterilized.
c. Cap is swabbed with sterile gauze and H2O2 and removed.
d. Solution inoculated with 1L of precultured Mycelium.
e. Insertion aerator and cap with filtered relief check valve.
f. Solution is kept at 30C with an electric blanket.
g. Solution is aerated for 7 days with filtered air.
h. 235 Ounces (14.5 lbs) of mycelium are strained from solution with cloth
i. Mycelium dried over calcium chloride to yield 750g dry weight.
j. Biomass is ground to a fine powder and re-added to drum with 75 L of methanol.
k. Sealed with cap fitted with large egg whisk style blender attached to the bottom.
l. Heated to 40C with electric blanket for 1-4 hours depending on level of agitation.
m. Solution is filtered with cloth.
n. Solution is re-filtered in a funnel with inert filtration medium.
o. Cap is fitted with a condenser (.5 - 1" coiled copper tubing inside 4-5 ft 6" PVC pipe allowing for coolant flow around coil) and digital thermometer to measure solution temp.
p. Sealed heat element is placed under drum to maintain 65C.
q. Solution is distilled to 1-5 liters.
r. Solution transferred to distillation apparatus and distilled in 1 L batches.
s. Yielding 20-40 grams of residue.
t. Residue is developed in a 100 ml H2O and 500 ml Naptha matrix.
u. Solution is agitated for 1 hour at room temperature.
v. Non-polar proteins and oils are removed via sep funnel separation of naptha layer.
x. Water is evaporated from extract with a blower using calcium chloride at 30C in 2 hours.
y. Yielding 10-20 grams of extract containing 7.5 g of psilocybin.
z. 375 doses with a street value of over $7000.00

I digress:

If boiling 75 L of methanol isn't your idea of time saving, cost efficient or fun, you can opt to process your ground-dried biomass in 75 (10 g / 1 L) batches. The major benefit being that you can reclaim most your solvent, eliminating the need to buy bulk methanol. The downside is the time involved, even under vacuum this is going to take a little while. Under optimum conditions we could still complete the entire process in less than two weeks.

Perhaps a reflux percolator could be implemented to percolate the bulk material with 1 L methanol while collecting extracts in the distillation chamber. (i.e. the methanol condenses from the distillation chamber into a reservoir layered with: ground biomass and perculate, inert filtrate medium, and filter material; then drains back into the distillation chamber.) Percolation should be complete within 4-24 hours. Fastest results would be seen if condenser displaced about 20C. Alternatively the reservoir could act as a condenser with the addition of a cooling coil to displace vapor temperature and instigate methanol condensation while passing thru the biomass perculate. Biomass should be free of alkaloids upon completion and can be tested for their presence using Keller's reagent. Remaining methanol is distilled off.

Under optimum conditions the entire process could take less than a week and a half.

-Zen

Ref: Hoffmann, Albert "Obtaining Psilocybin and Psilocin from Fungal Material" Sandoz Ltd., US patents 3183172, 1959

Ref: Hofmann, Albert "Method of Inducing Therapeutic Tranquilization with Psilocybin and Psilocin" Sandoz Ltd., US patents 3192111, 1959

Ref: Catalfomo, P. and V.E. Tyler, Jr. "The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture of Psilocybe Cubensis" LLoydia 27:53-63, 1964

Ref: Gartz, Jochen "Synthetic Nutrient Medium for Fungal Manufacture of Indole Alkaloids" Ger. (East) DD 255,749 (cl. C12P15/00), 13 Apr 1988

Edited by mothballs (06/18/16 01:30 AM)

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Offlinemothballs
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: mothballs]
    #23356525 - 06/18/16 01:25 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

this is an article i read after posting, it apears that if one were to reproduce this list of nutrients,whether with biological equivalents or w chemistry, it would be ideal for alkaloid production,.... if not yeild....(check the refrence!!!)

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23356547 - 06/18/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I would only pasteurize for 1 hour.

Low potency and hollow stems wasn't because of the substrate. Potency is genetic. Hollow stems is part genetic part temperature related.

Yield could be genetic and/or conditions. The fact that it was straw and manure likely had little to do with low yield, it could have been how it was prepped.

As far as all the other ingredients go, make sure it's properly pasteurized. I don't know how experienced you are, but coffee gives a lot of people trouble and I've never seen anything that makes it seem worth the effort. I've never seen anything that makes  castings, bloodmeal, olive oil, or seaweed seem worth the effort either. Not saying don't do it, just saying I personally have not seen anything.

IMHO, I'd stick with manure, straw, coir, verm, and gypsum. Just the CVG if you want to skip the proper pasteurization process.




Exactly my thoughts.... these "additive" recipes were made from home cultivators that wanted to try and stand out on the website... I've tried everything, it doesn't change the genetics of the culture... isolation is the key to best results, nothing to do with substrates.


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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23356623 - 06/18/16 02:27 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I would only pasteurize for 1 hour.






Even with poo added? I thought one should follow the regular time and temp when adding poo with straw. I pasteurized my new store poo and straw mix for 1hr30m at 140-170F. you think I should have pasteurized for a shorter cycle?

No molds yet but I've got some bacteria action going on. Probably need to reduce the water content in my bulk, poo gets soggy so I'm thinking the regular field capacity test might be too wet. Temps haven't been helping any either, been a constant 81-85F for over a week.

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23356675 - 06/18/16 03:03 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

You need to squeeze the bulk until no water drips out of it.

The bacteria is due to a overly enriched substrate... don't waste anymore of your time and spawn tinkering with those bs substrate additives op..

And it is 90min at 160-170f for pasteurization, you are correct.

If you want to increase yeild and size of mushrooms use a 50/50 hpoo/straw mix at a 1:1 ratio and compress the sub down as much as possible...if you build it up to 4inches (compressed) you will get gigantic  mushrooms.... only works with straw based substrates since shredded straw allows tons of f.a.e... don't try it with coir/verm, it will fail.

I just use straight coir....no complaints.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: HybridprX]
    #23356726 - 06/18/16 03:46 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I do 60 minutes. 90 is IMO too long and unnecessary. The majority of molds die at 130 for 30 minutes, so 140 for 60 is more than sufficient. Anything more is killing more beneficial microbes than doing anything else.

I do poo so that when I squeeze a handful tight only a couple drops come out. No streams or any of that shit.


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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: HybridprX]
    #23356730 - 06/18/16 03:49 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HybridprX said:
You need to squeeze the bulk until no water drips out of it.

The bacteria is due to a overly enriched substrate... don't waste anymore of your time and spawn tinkering with those bs substrate additives op..

And it is 90min at 160-170f for pasteurization, you are correct.

If you want to increase yeild and size of mushrooms use a 50/50 hpoo/straw mix at a 1:1 ratio and compress the sub down as much as possible...if you build it up to 4inches (compressed) you will get gigantic  mushrooms.... only works with straw based substrates since shredded straw allows tons of f.a.e... don't try it with coir/verm, it will fail.

I just use straight coir....no complaints.




Field capacity is when a few drops of water come out when you squeeze a little and a small stream comes out when you squeeze hard. I think it is too much for poo since it tends to get muddy with more water. I'm thinking that no drops when you squeeze is too little though. I've used field aged poo before and it did great so I'm blaming the water content+ ridiculously high temp for this one. Hopefully I will grow something other than a mold farm.

I only asked about the time because SBJ said 1hour max, curious about what he has to say about that.

I don't compress poo subs, they get incredibly dense. They colonize the sub just fine when it's not too compressed.

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23356733 - 06/18/16 03:51 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
I do 60 minutes. 90 is IMO too long and unnecessary. The majority of molds die at 130 for 30 minutes, so 140 for 60 is more than sufficient. Anything more is killing more beneficial microbes than doing anything else.

I do poo so that when I squeeze a handful tight only a couple drops come out. No streams or any of that shit.




Then there's my problem, I hydrated to field capacity like you would do with coir. Got some cottage cheese growing in my trays. Good to know mads, I will adjust my tek accordingly on my next spawning session.

:themoreyouknow:

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23357579 - 06/18/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Nobody's gonna comment on that crazy ass article posted. :lol:  With the most recent reference dating to 1988, and all the others older than that.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: mothballs]
    #23357708 - 06/18/16 11:14 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mothballs said:
this is an article i read after posting,

..an article that states something different,....and interesting.....





In the other thread everyone was trying to explain how wrong all that shit is

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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23357925 - 06/18/16 12:13 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't say "1 hour max". I said I'd only pasteurize for 1 hour. You can certainly go longer, but two hours at pasteurization temperature seems like over-kill. 90 mins is fine too.

The longer you keep substrates at pasteurization temperature, the more microbes, including beneficial microbes, you kill. Most of the recommendations I've read recommend 1 hour as minimum and 2 hours as maximum. 1 hour being plenty.

Whatever seems to work for you, go for it. That's all that matters. If you go longer, maybe start trying shorter times and see if that works for you. If it does, that's just less time baby-sitting.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (06/18/16 06:04 PM)

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23358630 - 06/18/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I didn't say "1 hour max". I said I'd only pasteurize for 1 hour. You can certainly go longer, but two hours at pasteurization temperature seems. 90 mins is fine too.

The longer you keep substrates at pasteurization temperature, the more microbes, including beneficial microbes, you kill. Most of the recommendations I've read recommend 1 hour as minimum and 2 hours as maximum. 1 hour being plenty.

Whatever seems to work for you, go for it. That's all that matters. If you go longer, maybe start trying shorter times and see if that works for you. If it does, that's just less time baby-sitting.





Ah, fair enough. I was only alarmed because I learned the hard way that straight straw needs less time and lower temps.

I actually think that the time difference is for temp variations. Like, if you keep temps at a steady 165F, one should use a lesser cycle than if he was keeping them at 150F. Don't have any facts to show or anything, just what I always thought about pasteurization.

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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23358816 - 06/18/16 06:01 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

There may be some truth to that and I don't have any empirical evidence either. I haven't done a lot of pasteurization. I'm starting to get in Pan Cyan though, so I'll be getting more experience.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23358824 - 06/18/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Supalemonhaze said:
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I didn't say "1 hour max". I said I'd only pasteurize for 1 hour. You can certainly go longer, but two hours at pasteurization temperature seems like over-kill. 90 mins is fine too.

The longer you keep substrates at pasteurization temperature, the more microbes, including beneficial microbes, you kill. Most of the recommendations I've read recommend 1 hour as minimum and 2 hours as maximum. 1 hour being plenty.

Whatever seems to work for you, go for it. That's all that matters. If you go longer, maybe start trying shorter times and see if that works for you. If it does, that's just less time baby-sitting.




I also corrected my post :lol:


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Offlinemothballs
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23514276 - 08/05/16 08:43 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

so time to eat my humble pie.....this shit DOES NOT work. contams out the wazoo, slow colonization, and extremely low yield. i should have listened to you guys.....oops. to anybody reading this...DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: nutes and a theoretical beefed up bulk???? [Re: mothballs]
    #23514875 - 08/06/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mothballs said:
i should have listened to you guys.....oops.




Says every guy who didn't listen. I actually commend you for admitting it though. :thumbup:

High nutrient content and high contamination rates go hand in hand, which is why we sterilize our grains. Bulk sub's main advantage is it's water content, not it's nutrients, although I admit, I do think that nutrients play a small part in terms of how your mushrooms grow. If poo was just as nutritious as grains, pasteurization would not even work.

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