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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions.
#23353342 - 06/17/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basically, I'd like to grow mycelium and ultimately mushrooms using the stem butts method. This is my first time ever doing this.
I think I have the initial part figured out. For Psilocybe subaeruginosa,
layer 4, 5, or 6 stem butts (with mycelium on them, of course) in saturated corrugated cardboard inside a tupperware container, close the lid and open it once a day to let the carbon dioxide out and mist the cardboard with water.
It's only after this stage am I unsure what to do. So I have some questions.
Now, I'm well aware that there are likely a few threads with the answers I seek. And I know Google would help too. I just wanted to ask a few quick few questions and get a quick few answers to save me reading through potentially pages and pages, if that's alright.
So here are my quick questions. 1) Do I keep the tupperware container outside in the shade (it's currently winter here in Melbourne)? 2) How long do you think the mycelium would need to grow inside the tupperware container? 3) Once the tupperware has a sufficient amount of mycelium in it, what do I do with it? Plant it in an appropriate habitat?
My third question is my main one....
Thanks in advance!
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ClintMassey
FREE RONDO

Registered: 05/31/16
Posts: 178
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23353391 - 06/17/16 01:58 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think its called cloning on cardboard,mycelium will show after a few days but you will need to get that mycelium transfered to another substrate to spawn enough of it to grow some mushies I suppose,It would be easier to dig out some mycelium from the stems and just transfer them in jars with grain and wait for it to colonize the jars...less trouble if you ask me,the stem of the mushroom is also made out of mycelium so if you can scrape enough of it from the inside of the stem...not the outside of stem because it could contaminate easily,or try to clone some tissue on agar it is also a good choice Idk...its up to you do as you wish
-------------------- I just move myself around, away from the crowd Cause the crowd get shot down, and I don't get shot down
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: ClintMassey]
#23353422 - 06/17/16 02:13 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok.....
I have watched a few videos on Youtube on the topic and have read the parts of Mycelium Running too. I'm just busy at the moment and don't feel like reading more on mushrooms in my spare time (here in Melbs we're in the final weeks of the P subaeruginosa season so I've had mushrooms on my mind for over a month now).
I was hoping to get some answers to my questions and preferably step by stem instructions as well so I could start growing mycelium this year instead of next.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23353528 - 06/17/16 03:29 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Painkiller said: I'm just busy at the moment and don't feel like reading more on mushrooms in my spare time
I was hoping to get some answers to my questions and preferably step by stem instructions as well so I could start growing mycelium this year instead of next.
So you don't want to read, you just want someone to basically.. give you all the answers?
You're in luck. This community loves that.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Inocuole]
#23353540 - 06/17/16 03:39 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I often help others on this site so I figured I may as well ask some questions in the hopes that there's someone who has spare time and likes helping others cultivate mushrooms...
If that person ain't you that's fine.
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk


Registered: 04/20/14
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23353967 - 06/17/16 08:23 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think what he means is that you should do your own reading first and then ask questions about whatever you didn't understand- rather than asking someone else to do it for you.
Is there some reason you are looking to use cardboard instead of agar?
With agar, to clone all you have to do is tear open a fruit and take some sterilev tissue with a scalpel. And drop it onto the agar plate. Once some myc grows you take a transfer, of clean myc away from any contams to a new plate.
Now you have a clean culture to inoculate with
--------------------
 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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MycoLoopology
Eye's wide open



Registered: 06/12/16
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23354025 - 06/17/16 08:52 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Painkiller said: I often help others on this site so I figured I may as well ask some questions in the hopes that there's someone who has spare time and likes helping others cultivate mushrooms...
If that person ain't you that's fine.
rather than rag on inoc for trying to help you in HIS way, i think you should follow his advice. a quick search and read is actually, in many ways, a much faster and better way of getting the answer you need. especially for questions usually answered step by step in many teks already created for this exact purpose.
asking questions is fine, but showing respect is far more important. if you want a good reaction that is.
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: mushpunx]
#23354050 - 06/17/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'll look into that thanks a lot...
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: mushpunx]
#23354097 - 06/17/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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The reason why I was looking into using the cardboard method is because it seemed simple and I've already got it figured out to a degree.
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ClintMassey
FREE RONDO

Registered: 05/31/16
Posts: 178
Last seen: 7 years, 7 days
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23354338 - 06/17/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Its not a bad idea but I would start with cutting open the stems and scraping mycelium on cardboard to,that way you can stack a cntainer full of cardboard and the mycelium will slowly devour the cardboard and fill the entire container and you will have cardoard mycelium to start your new spawns or whatewer,I did it before and it works well to some degree but its bassicaly easier on agar if you know how to work with it,It seems to me that it would be best to cook up some grains and inoculate the jars with some mycelium from the stems and leave it to colonize for a week or two and you are ready to grow some more shroomies...it is the fastest version I think,with agar you will need to wait and probably get a contamination of some degree based on do you have a laminar flow hood or a sab and know how to work in a sab properly,I get contaminations often and it takes a few transfers to me to get rid of contaminations,on the other hand sometimes I get pure mycelium and no contamination simply by luck and that happens when im not even paying attention to what im doing so agar is still pretty weird for me,Grain spawn works best for me,least contaminations and quickest way to get spawn and if you are starting from a stem i think you should get a clone of the mushroom itself and there would be no reason to isolate anything Idk if im right or not...as far as I know I am but anywas good luck to you
-------------------- I just move myself around, away from the crowd Cause the crowd get shot down, and I don't get shot down
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: ClintMassey]
#23356149 - 06/17/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cheers for the reply.
I've never even heard of agar til last night. So I'm still planning to use the cardboard method. I can imagine it working and this is important. I was planning on having like, 3 - 5 tupperware containers with mycelium growing and later inoculating a couple areas I have in mind.
I do have a copy of Mycelium Running in front of me which I'm going to read thoroughly to try and figure out what to do myself. Wouldn't be surprised if I'll need to ask questions.
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23356186 - 06/17/16 09:58 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't go cutting anything unless you're moving it to agar. You're killing established mycelium. Above your post isn't the best advice in the world.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Adden]
#23356312 - 06/17/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mkay. Page 142 of Mycelium Running says, in the part called 'Mycelium Footprints and the Wonders of Cardboard Spawn', 'One method I favour for expanding naturalized mycelium is to use cardboard.'
Where I'm planning on sourcing my mycelium is from an area where there's a shit tonne of mushrooms and furthermore it's risky to go picking in this spot... So I'm not all that concerned for taking some of the mycelium from this place and spreading it to more appropriate places if you know what I mean...
The part of Mycelium Running that I quoted in this post appears to have some if not all the answers I seek. I'll read it then get back to you guys.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23356386 - 06/18/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright I've done some reading and now I'll post some quotes.
So this is what I've figured out so far.
Step 1) Layer the stem butts in saturated corrugated cardboard like a lasagne inside a tupperware container.
(it says in the book on page 142, "covering the cardboard with a loose layer of straw helps reduces evaporation and provides shade. Incubate for several months, periodically watering and checking to see if the mycelium has attached to the cardboard." So this means I'm to add straw or something to the Tupperware container, right? What about eucalyptus forest floor debris instead?)
2) "Once the mycelium covers 25 to 50 percent of the cardboard, it can be transferred. If it is overincubated, the mycelium will die back. For this reason, it is best to move the mycelium at the crest of growth... Among the saporphytes listen in this book, mycelial waves may continue for 4 months to 2 years before mycelium consumes the cardboard, is consumed, and/or dies back.
3) "Once the underside of the cardboard is colonized, with the growth running through the corrogations, pick up the myceliated cardboard and do either one of the following:
- Place it on top of a new bed or fresh woodchips, mycelial face down. I call these mycelial faces. When placed onto a new substrate, the face becomes the footprint.
- Use it to make bunker spawn by sandwiching it between 2 burlap sacks filled with woodchips.
- Use the mycelialted cardboard to inoculate more sheets of corrugated cardboard. Simply strip the smooth paper to expose the corrugates, soak the cardboard, and sandwich it between the new cardboard panels. By alternating panels with and without mycelium, you can build aa mycelium cardboard tower."
What do you guys think?
I basically wanna get the Tupperware container set up. It seems like for quiet a few months all I'll need to do is open to lid once a day to let the carbon dioxide out (according to a video on Youtube) and mist the cardboard with water, right?
I'll do more reading and make another post soon. Would be great to get some advice in the mean time...
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23356645 - 06/18/16 02:47 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright so I've read some more and I've basically figured out what to do.
"Depending upon how thoroughly the mycelium has colonized the paper and the number of walls in the corrugated cardboard, several sheets of mycelium can be deliminted - separated into individual panels - substantially increasing the surface area of the mycelium for use as cardboard sheet spawn. When placing cardboard with an exposed mycelial face upon wood chips, make sure the substrate is moist before contact. If living mycelium touches dry wood, the wood will such the moisture from the mycelium causing cell walls to collapse and harming them. If you place the sensitive mycelium onto a wet surface, it can grab onto the surface without having to struggle to manage moisture within its own cells. This stratergy allows the mycelium to leap off. "Leap off" is a term growers use to describe the mycelium's recovery from the shock of inoculation and the ensuing growth surge. Generally, the better the leap-off, the better chance the mycelium will win the microbial race."
This is what I plan to do. Can I use a massive container instead of a small Tupperware container?
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23356662 - 06/18/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Agar>everything else.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,059
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23356678 - 06/18/16 03:06 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I appreciate all the advice on the agar method. But I'm pretty fixated on the cardboard method.
Like I said I haven't even heard of agar til last night.
How is the agar method better than the one I've been reading and talking about and have basically figured out?
Is this the agar you're talking about?
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23356715 - 06/18/16 03:40 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, that's the one. It is the best tool a mycologist can have. The list of advantages of agar is too big to fully mention but I will list the most important and advantageous.
- It is hands down the best growing medium to germinate spores on.
- It has all the nutrients that mycelium needs to be healthy.
- You can change the recipe to suit your needs (softer recipe for spores, less nutes for rhizo growth). Changing the nutrients will keep cultures from going lazy.
- It has the best visibility out of all things mycelium can grow on.
- You can easily spot contams and transfer healthy mycelium to a new plate to clean the culture up. There are also additives that prevent bacteria contams from spreading and one can also use the sandwich tek to get rid of bacteria in 1 transfer. Bacteria is mostly invisible on everything else.
- You can isolate strains of mycelium to achieve an isolate/monoculture. A good isolate will have significantly better yields than a multispore grow and it will grow evenly. The shrooms from a monoculture grow will all mature at the same time. Makes for great canopies.
- It is the best thing to use to take clones without contamination.
- You can store cultures indefintely by filling test tubes with agar. These are called slants and once refrigirated, growth will be halted and cultures will not grow "old" (senescene).
- Agar is the only method you can use to get clean LCs consistently.
- Blended & blenderless LI are the safest and cleanest liquid inoculants you can use.
- Agar wedges are by far the safest way to inoculate your spawn jars. Inoculating jars with a syringe is always a gamble, agar takes a very common vector of contamination out of the equation.
- Agar is the best way to expand mycelium without ever having the need to go back to spores. 1 fully colonized plate can inculate hundreds of other plates if you wished to do so. You can easily inoculate 400 jars with a hundred plates when using wedges, even more if using LI. Having a culture on agar will save you time that would have been spent waiting for spores to germinate.
There are definitely more worth mentioning but if I continue this post will fill an entire page. I don't know how you can ever read a mycology related book without reading anything about agar, every serious commercial and hobbyist grower uses agar constantly. You also probably never read anything on the shroomery, agar gets mentioned in almost every thread.
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Painkiller
shaman and sorcerer


Registered: 10/08/15
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23356762 - 06/18/16 04:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm mostly in the Mushroom Hunting and Identification forum. This the first time I've ever really checked the Mushroom Cultivation forum and this is also the first thread I've ever created.
You've sure made the agar method out to be a good one. Seems a little more involved than the cardboard method and that's what puts me off considering this is the first I'm ever going to be growing mycelium and ultimately mushrooms so I would like to take the easiest option...
Unless something happens within the next week that causes a massive change in my perception I'll just use the cardboard method. I'm used to growing regular plants but not mycelium and mushrooms and the cardboard method is easier for me to understand at this point in time....
I'll keep this agar method in mind and defiantly use it one day so thanks for telling me about it!
In the mean time any advice on cardboard grows would be much appreciated.
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MycoLoopology
Eye's wide open



Registered: 06/12/16
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Re: Cultivation using stem butts quick few questions. [Re: Painkiller]
#23357298 - 06/18/16 09:20 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Painkiller said: I'm mostly in the Mushroom Hunting and Identification forum. This the first time I've ever really checked the Mushroom Cultivation forum and this is also the first thread I've ever created.
You've sure made the agar method out to be a good one. Seems a little more involved than the cardboard method and that's what puts me off considering this is the first I'm ever going to be growing mycelium and ultimately mushrooms so I would like to take the easiest option...
Unless something happens within the next week that causes a massive change in my perception I'll just use the cardboard method. I'm used to growing regular plants but not mycelium and mushrooms and the cardboard method is easier for me to understand at this point in time....
I'll keep this agar method in mind and defiantly use it one day so thanks for telling me about it!
In the mean time any advice on cardboard grows would be much appreciated.
i wont say much, but just keep in mind, the easiest method is most likely never the best method. while it CAN be viable, taking the proper steps to do what is known to work BEST currently is USUALLY your best route. while this obviously can depend on situation and knowledge, this site is so full of great information that ANYONE can get started off on the right foot if they put the time and effort into it.
dont be intimidated by agar! in fact, agar is probably the BEST means of knowing ASAP if youve done it right or wrong
-------------------- Current Grow Log ^^My first grow log <3^^ Wish me luck.
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