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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23384224 - 06/26/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

What does spying on citizens have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23384355 - 06/26/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
I heard it, but I dismiss it yadda yadda




Oddly enough, you do the same.

If you think it's a joke perhaps you'd be happier not participating.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23384441 - 06/26/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

enil said:
long as the legislation is rationally related to an important government interest.



 
Preventing me from buying a track car wouldn't infringe on my pursuit of happiness ?

   
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Yup. The right to travel is a protected right. Now show me where you have the right to purchase one or even drive it on a road. Once you've purchased th



   
Your the one making the claim I have no right to an automobile . You show me I don't have the right to buy one put it in my garage and piss all over it if want.  I don't need a liscense for that .
    Califorornia says I need a  permit  to buy a handgun . Do I also have no 2nd amendment rights ?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23384457 - 06/26/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
 
Preventing me from buying a track car wouldn't infringe on my pursuit of happiness ?




It may or may not.  That's not really relevant, though.  You said the state couldn't ban it.  They could if the legislation was rationally related to an important government interest. 

All legislation limits freedom.  All legislation infringes on your pursuit of happiness.  That doesn't make all legislation unconstitutional, however.

By the way, "pursuit of happiness" isn't in the Constitution.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23384489 - 06/26/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Gun deaths are part of the price of freedom.



so says you...



Yup.  I said it.



I'm with airclay on this point.  Are we really more free if the likelihood of someone shooting us in a dance club is higher?  Similarly, are we really more free if we allow corporations to buy our politicians?  Are we really more free if the Government doesn't give us education, healthcare, firefighters, etc so the rich can get a tax cut?

I think an argument can be made both ways.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23384501 - 06/26/16 03:51 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm with airclay on this point.  Are we really more free if the likelihood of someone shooting us in a dance club is higher? 


The likelihood of me being shot in a dance club is close enough to zero that we can round down.  The likelihood of my freedom being curtailed by gun regulation is close enough to 100% that we can round up.
Quote:


Similarly, are we really more free if we allow corporations to buy our politicians? 


Irrelevant to this thread.  Focus.
Quote:

Are we really more free if the Government doesn't give us education, healthcare, firefighters, etc so the rich can get a tax cut?


We're more free if we get to choose our education, healthcare, firefighters, etc. instead of having the government choose them for us.  Again, irrelevant to this thread.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23384514 - 06/26/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Your the one making the claim I have no right to an automobile . You show me I don't have the right to buy one put it in my garage and piss all over it if want.  I don't need a liscense for that .
    Califorornia says I need a  permit  to buy a handgun . Do I also have no 2nd amendment rights ?




Prove a negative?  :lolsy:

It should be easy for you to prove the government can't ban private ownership of cars. You'll have a chance to prove me wrong.

Good luck.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23384554 - 06/26/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm with airclay on this point.  Are we really more free if the likelihood of someone shooting us in a dance club is higher? 


The likelihood of me being shot in a dance club is close enough to zero that we can round down.  The likelihood of my freedom being curtailed by gun regulation is close enough to 100% that we can round up.



Close to 100%?  You're on a 'no fly' list?  :shrug:  It'd be close to 0% for me.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23384626 - 06/26/16 04:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Again, the no fly list is irrelevant.  It would never be the basis of a gun regulation unless the constitution is amended or the list is completely revamped.


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23384834 - 06/26/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

  You said the state couldn't ban it



    Couldn't stop me from owninging an automobile is what I was saying to someone . I guess I don't understand property rights. Lets say I already own a the car, and its just sits in my living room are you saying the state can come take my private property away because they have a reason they think is good? I must have some kind of right to it?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23384864 - 06/26/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

They could ban its use.


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23384987 - 06/26/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

""You have no right to an automobile.""

I think I do because I  have private property rights that doesn't go away just because its an automobile.

Quote:

It should be easy for you to prove the government can't ban private ownership of cars. You'll have a chance to prove me wrong.

Good luck.



 
At least you were right about it not being hard.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23384992 - 06/26/16 06:21 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

"I think I do" isn't a particularly persuasive argument.


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23385172 - 06/26/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

That's not all I said , I think I do because I have private property rights ,
The fact that I'm not  particularly talented at debate doesn't mean  Im wrong.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23386347 - 06/27/16 01:47 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
The likelihood of my freedom being curtailed by gun regulation is close enough to 100% that we can round up.



Close to 100%?  You're on a 'no fly' list?  :shrug:  It'd be close to 0% for me.



Again, the no fly list is irrelevant.  It would never be the basis of a gun regulation unless the constitution is amended or the list is completely revamped.



So you're saying the latest proposal by Congress on gun control was unconstitutional?

Regardless, what is your basis for claiming "The likelihood of my freedom being curtailed by gun regulation is close enough to 100%"?  That makes no sense if only criminals and the mentally ill are restricted from buying guns (unless of course, you're a convicted criminal or mentally ill).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23386619 - 06/27/16 05:29 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
""You have no right to an automobile.""

I think I do because I  have private property rights that doesn't go away just because its an automobile.

Quote:

It should be easy for you to prove the government can't ban private ownership of cars. You'll have a chance to prove me wrong.

Good luck.



 
At least you were right about it not being hard.




It must be hard because you haven't done it. Can you do it now?

The government can ban items. They banned private ownership of gold at one time, why not cars?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23386653 - 06/27/16 05:47 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

psilynut said:
""You have no right to an automobile.""

I think I do because I  have private property rights that doesn't go away just because its an automobile.

Quote:

It should be easy for you to prove the government can't ban private ownership of cars. You'll have a chance to prove me wrong.

Good luck.



 
At least you were right about it not being hard.




It must be hard because you haven't done it. Can you do it now?

The government can ban items. They banned private ownership of gold at one time, why not cars?




why not a certain type of weapon from being purchased?


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23386671 - 06/27/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
why not a certain type of weapon from being purchased?




Supreme Court in Heller said:
Quote:

"Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."




So it seems they can.


However, in Miller:
Quote:

And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.




So that would seem to rule out what I think you're going for... an 'assault weapon' ban. As there are millions of these rifles in the US, that certainly puts them in 'common use'.

Plus, the sale of 'new' full auto weapons has been banned to the public since 1986.

As well, there have been severe restrictions on the ownership of full auto weapons since the 30's. Sawed off shotguns, full auto and more require special permissions. The ban on the sale of 'new' full auto weapons have driven prices to where they are effectively banned for many people.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23386680 - 06/27/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What does spying on citizens have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?





you're right as I'm watching this I'm putting these together. I'd like to say that as one sides rhetoric has ramped up so has the others but that would take more evidence to show. if provable at all, this lends to conspiracy.



Here's my deal as plainly as I can state it. I don't support anything but a change in sales requirements. I agree that the weapons that are out there are already out there and nothing can be done about that. I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in stopping any one that wants to purchase a weapon for self defence, hunting or just pleasure. I do think that purchasing a semi-auto rifle should have more checks to it. More than showing an id, which is all it takes here in Texas.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23386714 - 06/27/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

So reading in more about heller and miller decisions:

Quote:

District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)
"Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons. It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller

which would put doubt in the way you used it above.

there are more cases here tho, this is an interesting rabbit hole, I'll have to get back to after work.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (06/27/16 06:29 AM)


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