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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Maroon]
    #23382179 - 06/25/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
The issue here is not criminals who don't obey laws.


It's about stripping away innocent citizens right to bear semi equal arms and ammo  to their criminalistics government



No, the argument has always been about how to better prevent criminals from killing people.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23382217 - 06/25/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

large number of gun deaths




While to affected family members the loss is painful no matter the numbers, overall the number is quite low.

Population 315m, Firearm murders 8,124

That's 0.0026%

Number of people killed by rifles in 2014 was 248

That's 0.00008% 

Even if you add in the full figure of 'Firearms, type not stated' as being rifle murders 248 + 1959 = 2207

That's 0.0007%

Those are not 'large numbers' and those numbers do not justify stomping on peoples constitutional rights.





this argument is akin to looking at the statistics of automobile accidents in comparison to how much driving is done in total and arguing that seat belts aren't really needed.

another swing and a miss guy.




So don't miss next time. The automobile comparison is old and stale. You have no right to an automobile. With or without seat belts. Don't like the math? Don't play.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleGlameow
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23382855 - 06/26/16 03:14 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

You only have a right to a gun in a well regulated militia. .when are you signing up?


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Invisibletrscstghst
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Glameow]
    #23382869 - 06/26/16 03:28 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

no. you, as a person have the right to a gun, because the people need to have the ability to form a well regulated militia, in the event that it becomes necessary in order to maintain the liberty of the people.


how anyone could interpret the second amendment as meaning anything other than that is just mind boggling to me


--------------------
Why use up the forests which were centuries in the making and the mines which required ages to lay down, if we can get the equivalent of forest and mineral products in the annual growth of the hemp fields?
o Henry Ford


Edited by trscstghst (06/26/16 03:35 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Glameow]
    #23383136 - 06/26/16 07:01 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Glameow said:
You only have a right to a gun in a well regulated militia. .when are you signing up?



The Supreme Court has already held that the 2nd gives citizens an individual right to bear arms.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Glameow]
    #23383324 - 06/26/16 08:38 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Glameow said:
You only have a right to a gun in a well regulated militia. .when are you signing up?




The 2nd doesn't say you have to be in a militia. The Supreme Court agrees.

And anyway, according to the US Militia Act every able-bodied male between the ages of 17 and 45 are part of the unorganized militia. It doesn't require you to 'sign up' if you're a citizen.


But really, the militia claim just makes you appear to be quite foolish.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23383390 - 06/26/16 09:14 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

large number of gun deaths




While to affected family members the loss is painful no matter the numbers, overall the number is quite low.

Population 315m, Firearm murders 8,124

That's 0.0026%

Number of people killed by rifles in 2014 was 248

That's 0.00008% 

Even if you add in the full figure of 'Firearms, type not stated' as being rifle murders 248 + 1959 = 2207

That's 0.0007%

Those are not 'large numbers' and those numbers do not justify stomping on peoples constitutional rights.





this argument is akin to looking at the statistics of automobile accidents in comparison to how much driving is done in total and arguing that seat belts aren't really needed.

another swing and a miss guy.




So don't miss next time. The automobile comparison is old and stale. You have no right to an automobile. With or without seat belts. Don't like the math? Don't play.





My argument doesn't need you to have an absolute right to drive a vehicle but more so points to the idea that in such a large sample size you can drive the numbers down to look extremely small in plenty of cases.

You also seem to miss what falcon and most other supporting some action here by representing facts about the damage of all rifle and firearms. Neither of those points have much to do with the fear that the public currently holds of impulsive violent and angry shooters mowing down crowds of ppl to inflict as much possible damage. What were those facts about public shooters again? Something about the ones with semi-auto's being 157% more deadly?

What ppl are proposing is taking a better look into how and to whom they're being sold. That is currently being blocked by this rhetoric which only allows the conversation to go into some sort of all or nothing backed up by a conspiracy style "well do you really trust the gov't to be honest?" Which is a ridiculous way of looking at it, really, when you consider that everyone does expect honesty and gives the benefit of the doubt when it comes to them benefitting from the state.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23383476 - 06/26/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Gun deaths are part of the price of freedom.


--------------------
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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23383613 - 06/26/16 10:41 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You have no right to an automobile. With or without seat belts. Don't like the math? Don't play.





""""The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by horse drawn carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city can prohibit or permit at will, but a common Right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." [emphasis added] Thompson vs. Smith, 154 SE 579.""""

  I have some rights to an automobile . I don't think the state could stop me from buying a track car and taking it to the track .


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23383622 - 06/26/16 10:43 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
but more so points to the idea that in such a large sample size you can drive the numbers down to look extremely small in plenty of cases.




The numbers don't just look exceedingly small. They are exceedingly small.


Quote:

You also seem to miss what falcon and most other supporting some action here by representing facts about the damage of all rifle and firearms.




I don't miss it. I dismiss it.


Quote:

Neither of those points have much to do with the fear that the public currently holds of impulsive violent and angry shooters mowing down crowds of ppl to inflict as much possible damage.




That's a mental health issue, not a gun issue.


Quote:

What were those facts about public shooters again? Something about the ones with semi-auto's being 157% more deadly?




The facts? The facts are the last 'assault weapons' ban was close to useless. The facts are that you don't take away the rights of many because of the actions of a very few. The facts are that very few are actually killed by sickos using 'assault weapons'. The facts are that the biggest difference between 'assault weapons' and semi-automatic hunting/target/general weapons are cosmetic. The facts are that seemingly most who argue for banning a certain type of weapon actually know jack-shit about the weapons they want to ban. The facts are that legal gun owners commit an extremely small amount of gun crimes.


Quote:

What ppl are proposing is taking a better look into how and to whom they're being sold. That is currently being blocked by this rhetoric which only allows the conversation to go into some sort of all or nothing backed up by a conspiracy style "well do you really trust the gov't to be honest?" Which is a ridiculous way of looking at it, really, when you consider that everyone does expect honesty and gives the benefit of the doubt when it comes to them benefitting from the state.




When many of the proposed solutions involve stripping due process rights from Americans... the government has done nothing but damage the trust of the law abiding. Any legislator who proposes an action that strips due process should be voted out of office... alas, Americans are too stupid to care unless the assault on their rights directly impacts them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23383623 - 06/26/16 10:44 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Gun deaths are part of the price of freedom.




:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23383636 - 06/26/16 10:47 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

You have no right to an automobile. With or without seat belts. Don't like the math? Don't play.





""""The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by horse drawn carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city can prohibit or permit at will, but a common Right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." [emphasis added] Thompson vs. Smith, 154 SE 579.""""

  I have some rights to an automobile . I don't think the state could stop me from buying a track car and taking it to the track .




Yup. The right to travel is a protected right. Now show me where you have the right to purchase one or even drive it on a road.

Once you've purchased the auto you indeed have the right to use it on private property.

Try again.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23383649 - 06/26/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But the fact is that mass shootings constitute just two per cent of gun homicides in the United States, and assault weapons are not the weapons most commonly used by Americans to kill one another.




http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/04/the-gun-fight-in-congress


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: psilynut]
    #23383654 - 06/26/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
I don't think the state could stop me from buying a track car and taking it to the track .



Yeah, it could.  As long as the legislation is rationally related to an important government interest.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Maroon]
    #23383939 - 06/26/16 12:02 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
If there is anything to be learned from history it is the cyclical nature of things.

Many on here are well versed on the specific of why prohibition from a law  and actual enforcement standpoint can never succeed. These are well tested facts that the world has paid for with alcohol prohibition and still pays for with current failing prohibition enforcements.

Now I totally get knee jerk reactions and emotional appeal with very misleading scary word like "assault weapon"

But can someone tell me why we have so many proven instances that prohibition only compounds the issues around the prohibited item.

And we have millions of examples that prove this.


What is the validity to gun prohibition? To compound gun problems? As every other instance of prohibition brings markets deeper underground and  more unregulated. How is this safer?




The reason why they released the ban, it is because they have found out that many politicians have had their hand in trafficking of alcohol. And so they lifted it for that reason. They need to release it on all drugs. That a lot of politicians are connected with the drug trafficking. If the lift the ban, that they must make sure that the drug is sold at a very low price and so that the users can easily afford to feed their habits. Because most of the users money are going on drugs rather than paying rent and or feeding their families. Lie cocaine is very cheaply to be made. That it cost to process it is about 50 cents to every 20 pound of powder cocaine. But someone want it to stay in the black market because they can make more money from it. But the only reason that it was put into the black market, that it is making black men rape white women. But now since things are different, that they doesn't have to worry about black men having sex with white women anymore, that they should go ahead and release the ban on all drugs except the drug called Bath Salt or any other drugs that causes a person to become very uncontrollable violent. But we have lot of crack users walking the streets looking as if they are lost, but they are not violent at all. But the government doesn't want no one to know that chewing the leaf of this plant is not addicting because the effect of it last for hours. But crack only last for a second and then they want more of it because of the short term effect. And that what is making it so addicting, because of the very short term effect.



At the beginning of the 20th century, cocaine began to be linked to crime. In 1900, the Journal of the American Medical Association published an editorial stating, "Negroes in the South are reported as being addicted to a new form of vice – that of 'cocaine sniffing' or the 'coke habit.'" Some newspapers later claimed cocaine use caused blacks to rape white women and was improving their pistol marksmanship. Chinese immigrants were blamed for importing the opium-smoking habit to the U.S. The 1903 blue-ribbon citizens' panel, the Committee on the Acquirement of the Drug Habit, concluded, "If the Chinaman cannot get along without his dope we can get along without him."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Narcotics_Tax_Act


3. Thomas Edison — Cocaine Elixirs

In 1863, French chemist Angelo Mariani invented “Vin Mariani,” a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves, the active ingredient of which is none other than cocaine. The ethanol content in the Bordeaux could extract cocaine from the coca leaves in concentrations exceeding 7 mg per fluid ounce of wine. Thomas Edison — the prolific American inventor and notorious insomniac (though perhaps not surprisingly) — was one of many people of the period known to regularly consume the cocaine-laced elixir.  http://www.salon.com/2013/08/16/10_famous_geniuses_who_used_drugs_and_were_better_off_for_it_partner/


In this article the principal reason for the emigration of Dr. Carl Koller is examined on the basis of the available literature. In fact, antisemitism did not play a crucial role. After his colleague, Dr. Fritz Zinner, called him an impudent Jew in public in the General University Hospital of Vienna, Koller reacted by hitting the man in the face. A duel with heavy sabres was the outcome; Koller was unharmed, whilst his opponent received two deep gashes. Such duels were strictly forbidden at that time already, but were nonetheless still executed. In consequence, Koller's hopes of obtaining a position in the Eye Department, for which he was very well qualified, and of an academic career in Vienna were dashed and he had to emigrate. Koller eventually settled in New York in 1888, where he received many distinctions during his life span. The Medical Association of Vienna also honoured him in 1930. Dr. Koller was proposed several times for the Nobel prize in Physiology and Medicine, since his discovery of cocaine as local anaesthetic in ophthalmology was undoubtedly worthy of this prize, but his discovery had been published too long previously, so that according to the statutes of the Nobel prize this distinction could not be granted. Hence, it can be concluded that although Dr. Koller was forced to leave Vienna in 1885, it was not principally for antisemitic reasons. There were Jewish professors in the Medical Faculty of Vienna University at the time and, indeed, when the author studied medicine in 1931 to 1936, four Jewish professors held chairs in Vienna and one of his predecessors as chief of the First Department of Ophthalmology, Isidor Schnabel, was Jewish.  http://www.cocaine.org/karl-koller/life.html


The active ingredient in cocaine occurs naturally, as it’s produced in the leaves of the coca plant. The Incas used the leaves for ceremonial purposes, but according to a review of history published in The Independent, archaeological digs seem to indicate that the Incas also used the drug for social and medicinal purposes. The culture might have even used the leaves as a form of food, since the plant does contain both vitamins and protein.

When the conquistadors began investigating Inca culture, they discovered that the workers were more effective when they were given access to this drug. As a result, the occupying Spanish began cultivating crops of coca leaves, and some people began using it on their own.  http://www.michaelshouse.com/cocaine-addiction/history-of-cocaine/


Ben Franklin could not ever have done cocaine since cocaine was developed in 1855, and Ben Franklin died in 1790.  http://www.answers.com/Q/Was_benjamin_franklin_doing_cocaine


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23384181 - 06/26/16 01:37 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Gun deaths are part of the price of freedom.





so says you...


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay]
    #23384183 - 06/26/16 01:38 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Yup.  I said it.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23384190 - 06/26/16 01:41 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

lol this discussion is a joke

I heard it, but I dismiss it yadda yadda

and talk about "the price of freedom"

have fun when you don't have any private communications, method of organization or representation because that's it what the current admin is doing in favor of yall ridiculous takes on life absent of any rationality.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23384199 - 06/26/16 01:43 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like you're rambling about all kinds of shit.  If you don't trust the government with your communication, why do you trust the government so much that you'd let them take your guns?


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: We know alcohol prohibition fails, drug prohibition fails, so what about gun prohibition? [Re: Enlil]
    #23384218 - 06/26/16 01:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Because that's an incorrect framing of the situation to label it as "take your guns" that doesn't resemble anything I've stated or what anyone is talking about, it's a push into rhetoric.

However James Comey and another fbi lackeys have already multiple times mentioned expanding the spying it does on civilians. edit: In response to the Omar Mateen investigation.

So sure stand behind your guns to an irrational point based in rhetoric but understand what exactly you will trade for it.

Like I said earlier your guns won't mean much when you can't communicate or operate outside of the eyes of the state.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Edited by airclay (06/26/16 01:50 PM)


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