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OfflineStrumpling
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Why do we have presidential elections?
    #2330217 - 02/13/04 12:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Why do the US citizens cast votes for president if they're not even electing anybody?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2330231 - 02/13/04 12:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

explain.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2330243 - 02/13/04 12:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

read the "what if" post and you may see what I mean.

The electors vote for president; we don't.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2330246 - 02/13/04 12:29 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

like this is why we could all vote for Gore but Bush could win the election anyway.

what the hell are we voting for if we're not chosing the president?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2330266 - 02/13/04 12:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Voting basically tells those who rule where the people stand. It tells them how far they can go without causing an uprising.


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2330274 - 02/13/04 12:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Because the members of the electoral college need instruction from the residents of the states they represent on how to vote. They are not allowed to "vote their conscience", they are required to cast their votes as directed by the voters of the state they represent.

pinky


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Phred]
    #2330309 - 02/13/04 12:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

why not just cut out the middle man then?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Phred]
    #2330325 - 02/13/04 12:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

they are required to cast their votes as directed by the voters of the state they represent.




I'm not sure that's true. In the Bush/Dukakis election Loyd Benson got 1 electoral vote without winning a district and i'm pretty sure McGovern got a few himself. I'll go look it up right now.

During the Kennedy/Nixon election Byrd got 15 electoral votes w/o winning a state.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/13/04 12:52 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: afoaf]
    #2330332 - 02/13/04 12:46 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

afoaf writes:

why not just cut out the middle man then?

See the thread "what if?"

mushmaster summarized it neatly.

pinky


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
Loc: Holland
Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: afoaf]
    #2330346 - 02/13/04 12:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

why not just cut out the middle man then?




For the same reason there are no elections in iraq. No middle man, no elections. The middle men who run the country have ideals and they are not going to give up those ideals to some whim of the people. But they will let the people vote to see how far they can put into action their ideals without causing choas.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: timetravel]
    #2330350 - 02/13/04 12:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's a good way to put it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
Loc: Holland
Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2330377 - 02/13/04 12:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That's a good way to put it. 




Thank you  :grin:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: timetravel]
    #2330394 - 02/13/04 01:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Though I liked how you put it it was still the law at the time of the election, so we get what we get.

Why the Electoral College?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
Loc: Holland
Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2330415 - 02/13/04 01:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

  They feared a tyrant could manipulate public opinion and come to power




Quote is from the link.

They also feared someone else could come to power, not just a tyrant. Nice link.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: timetravel]
    #2330429 - 02/13/04 01:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They also feared someone else could come to power




like who?  What could be worse than a tyrant?

edit...Hillary? :crazy:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/13/04 01:13 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2331081 - 02/13/04 03:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

like maybe a true american who doesn't want to follow the major plans this country's beaurocrats seem to be following through with no matter who's president


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Phred]
    #2331086 - 02/13/04 03:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"They are not allowed to "vote their conscience", they are required to cast their votes as directed by the voters of the state they represent."

ha.. and how exactly do they enforce this? Has an elector ever gotten "busted" or anything?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2331153 - 02/13/04 03:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The Electoral College does not have to choose the winner, so in escence they are voting their conscience.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: Phred]
    #2331466 - 02/13/04 05:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They are not allowed to "vote their conscience", they are required to cast their votes as directed by the voters of the state they represent.



It's a VERY rare day when it can be said that you're wrong. This is that day.

Some states require it, some do it a little differently..


Look here.
The number of electors for each state is equal to the number of Representatives (1 to 53) plus the number of Senators (2). The 23rd Amendment grants the District of Columbia the number of electors it would be entitled to if it were at state, but not more than that of the least populous state. In 2000, the District received 3 electors. Wyoming, the least populous state, has 3 electors.

The candidate with the highest popular vote tally receives all of the state's electoral votes, with the exception of electoral votes from Maine and Nebraska.

In Maine and Nebraska the 2 at-large electoral votes go to the winner of the statewide popular vote. In addition, the presidential candidate with the highest popular vote in each of the state's Congressional Districts wins 1 electoral vote from that particular district. Maine has been doing this since the 1972 presidential election. Nebraska is a newcomer to this "districting" system of allocating electoral votes to the presidential candidates in the November General Election- having had this in place only beginning with the 1996 election.

The relevant statutes governing this procedure in each state are:

Maine Revised Statutes Title 21-A, section 802. Presidential Electors; Representation:

"One presidential elector shall be chosen from each congressional district and 2 at large"

Nebraska Revised Statutes 32-710. State postprimary conventions; selection of presidential electors [excerpt]:

"One presidential elector shall be chosen from each congressional district, and two presidential electors shall be chosen at large"

The U.S. Constitution- in Article II, Section 1, clause 2 (which was not altered by the later 12th Amendment)- reads, in part, as follows: "Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors... etc." [italics ours]; it is this constitutional provision which permits the several States to do what Maine and Nebraska have already done in switching over to the "districting" system from the more usual so-called "general ticket" system for allocating electors.

There are a total of 538 electors and 270 votes are needed to elect. Should no candidate receive the necessary 270 votes then the election is decided by the Congress. The House, voting by states and not as individuals (a majority of the total number of states being necessary to a choice), chooses the President and the Senate, voting by individuals and not as states (a majority of the total number of senators being necessary to a choice), chooses the Vice President.



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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/13/04 05:17 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why do we have presidential elections? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2333522 - 02/14/04 05:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

luvdemshrooms writes:

It's a VERY rare day when it can be said that you're wrong. This is that day.

Incorrect.

My statement was never that every single elector in the state electoral college of a given state must vote for the same candidate.

My statement was that the electors are not allowed to "vote their conscience". They must vote as directed by the voters of the state they represent.

The fact that some states may subdivide their electoral college more finely than other states doesn't alter the fact that the electors are not given a free hand. It's not as if a given elector may vote for candidate Jones over candidate Smith no matter what because he personally likes candidate Jones more. If the voters he represents -- be it the voters of the entire state or just the voters of a subdivision within that state -- say they want Smith, then Smith gets the vote regardless of the personal inclinations of the elector in question. He has absolutely no choice in the matter. He is a figurehead, an automaton, a puppet.

To tell the truth, I'm not sure there even are actual "electors" in the sense of flesh and blood people. There's no need for it after all. It can all be done through a simple mathematical formula.

pinky


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