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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2327362 - 02/12/04 04:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There are thousands of people just like me who have honed their skills for various types of jobs (many people way older than me,having dedicated half their lives to these specific positions, and way less capable of learning some of the newer tech jobs), and these jobs are getting sucked right out of our country

the tariffs which support the employment of these people are causing the unemployment of others, at home as well as abroad.

if one decides to purchase a particular product overseas, who have them harmed? why should they be penalized? they have harmed no one.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327613 - 02/12/04 05:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think you should be deported and no longer be allowed to live in America, and no longer allowed to sell to Americans if you give American jobs to people overseas.

Democracy is market driven. If we tell them that they either have to benefit the people of this country, or get the fuck out mayby they will live up to their responsabilities.


Edited by Baby_Hitler (02/12/04 05:54 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327619 - 02/12/04 05:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

But what about Walmart who has made millions of dollars off the Communist Chinese. It works really well for them considering they work for 12 cents an hour, When the average american will be paid 6.00$ an hour. Simple Economics my friend. Whose gonna lose the jobs? The Americans or Chinese. I do believe Job Loss overseas is in direct correlation to Unemployment.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2327625 - 02/12/04 05:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

that would essentially outlaw trade. i hope you're kidding


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327637 - 02/12/04 06:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if you look at the bigger picture..then you must take into account the macro decline in wages that will result when every sector of the economy follows the example of the TV set..

please explain why will there be a decline in wages (real or nominal) as a result.

for example the TV is now $100 cheaper..but on the average..the customers are now earning $110 less since the last time they paid $400 for the TV...in this case..they actally have $10 less to spend on other goods & services...

why are people now earning less?




because if everybody has the same attitude..and decides to buy their TVs from china and their software from india..etc..etc...then the only jobs left in the US will be part-time minimum-wage jobs..that wont pay enough to buy the TV even with the $100 discount...


--------------------


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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2327652 - 02/12/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

At which point the price of TV's will come down.

There is no use being a manufacturer of goods if no-one can afford to buy them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #2327654 - 02/12/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

and because they can afford to buy things cheaper from china, now americans will have more money to spend on other things. they can buy more consumer goods and finance more capital investment, both will boost employment and production. china must also now buy american products.

when there is a tariff, we can directly see the people helped by it. if there is a textile tariff, it is easy to see the textile workers working in the functioning textile mills, going to and from work every day. what is harder to see are all of the other people who are not working because american's are blowing more money on textiles than they would if there was no tariff. you need to look at the bigger picture here. tariffs are wasteful. they encourage us to produce things which can be more efficiently produced by others. we should do what we've got a comparitive advantage in and let others do the same.

you cannot improve any peaceful situation by injecting force.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2327675 - 02/12/04 06:09 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

because if everybody has the same attitude..and decides to buy their TVs from china and their software from india..etc..etc...then the only jobs left in the US will be part-time minimum-wage jobs..that wont pay enough to buy the TV even with the $100 discount...

you really are talking out of your ass.

if we do not export goods and services to the chinese and indians of equal value to the goods and services they provide to us, our currency will lose value compared to theirs. it would eventually become cheaper for americans to purchase products at home then to buy them from india or china, and more profitable to export goods to those countries. there is a balance. the situation you are describing is impossible.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327687 - 02/12/04 06:13 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

A big factory here in my home county is moving all the jobs to Mexico leaving thousands unemployed here in this rural area. The people who decided to do this deserve to have their teeth blown out with shotguns.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327708 - 02/12/04 06:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I believe there should be tariffs on certain countries. Especially countries with workers getting no more than 9 cents an hour,and child labor.

Think about it for a second. How the hell can America as a exporter compete with major exporters in China and all the others...


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327709 - 02/12/04 06:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Higher rates of unemployment force workers to compete for jobs that pay lower wages, which controls inflation and enhances profitability. Obviously the government don't want inflation to get too low, so there is an 'ideal' level of unemployment depending on other economic factors.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327751 - 02/12/04 06:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
because if everybody has the same attitude..and decides to buy their TVs from china and their software from india..etc..etc...then the only jobs left in the US will be part-time minimum-wage jobs..that wont pay enough to buy the TV even with the $100 discount...

you really are talking out of your ass.

if we do not export goods and services to the chinese and indians of equal value to the goods and services they provide to us, our currency will lose value compared to theirs. it would eventually become cheaper for americans to purchase products at home then to buy them from india or china, and more profitable to export goods to those countries. there is a balance. the situation you are describing is impossible.




the impossible is happening right in front of our faces..except for conservatives who..by definition..have theirs up their bums...

Quote:

and because they can afford to buy things cheaper from china, now americans will have more money to spend on other things. they can buy more consumer goods and finance more capital investment, both will boost employment and production. china must also now buy american products.




it might boost employment in a chinese sweatshop..but americans wont have money to spend on other things..if they cant get a real job...

american prospect


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #2327753 - 02/12/04 06:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I believe there should be tariffs on certain countries. Especially countries with workers getting no more than 9 cents an hour,and child labor.

if i buy goods from an overseas company that pays its workers 9 cents an hour, who have i harmed?

child labor is a fact of life in many places. life is different there. you can't just impose your western, every-child-should-be-in-school standards on them. in some places, child labor is required for basic survival. how's that for full employment?

let's say that there is a theoretical small asian republic which is very impoverished. everyone works, even the elderly and children. they have a perfect climate for producing rice and not much else. now... if we purchase rice from them, who have we harmed? if we don't, how have we helped them?

i could understand a tariff against countries practicing slavery labor. i could even see an embargo. the situations you're describing fall short of that however.

Think about it for a second. How the hell can America as a exporter compete with major exporters in China and all the others...

we must. we must export to them goods and services with a value equal to those they provide to us. i've already explained the mechanism in my response to annapurna1.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2327899 - 02/12/04 07:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

the impossible is happening right in front of our faces..except for conservatives who..by definition..have theirs up their bums...

the only jobs left in america are part-time minimum wage jobs? when did this happen?

it might boost employment in a chinese sweatshop..but americans wont have money to spend on other things..if they cant get a real job...

no. try reading.

i'll try to make this as easy to follow as possible:

if we import more than we export, the value of the dollar abroad drops. as the value of the dollar drops, it becomes more financially sound for americans to buy domestic goods rather than imports. it also becomes more profitable for american manufacturers to produce goods for export.

trade is called "trade" for a reason. we cannot import without exporting (and if we could, do you really think it would be a bad thing?)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2328007 - 02/12/04 08:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

exporting goods and exporting JOBS are two very different things in my opinion


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2328010 - 02/12/04 08:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

they tend to be opposites. when i say "export" i'm talking about exporting goods and services, not "exporting" jobs..


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2328053 - 02/12/04 08:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I thought we were disucssing a lack of jobs, not a lack of goods

man I'm confused - I'm done with this thread


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2328070 - 02/12/04 08:44 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

importing goods = exporting jobs.

simple.


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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2328431 - 02/12/04 10:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I hit the link, waited five and a half minutes for the article to load, then read it through carefully twice.

Nowhere did I see the quote from Bush saying, "unemployment will help the economy".

I rarely cut and paste long articles, but since that site is so slow-loading I thought I'd save the rest of y'all some grief. I'll give a 5 shroom rating to the person who can find the quote for me.

Bush supports shift of jobs overseas
Posted on Tuesday, February 10 @ 10:00:07 EST
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The loss of work to other countries, while painful in the short term, will enrich the economy eventually, his report to Congress says.

By Warren Vieth and Edwin Chen, Los Angeles Times

WASHINGTON ? The movement of American factory jobs and white-collar work to other countries is part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time, even if it causes short-term pain and dislocation, the Bush administration said Monday.

The embrace of foreign outsourcing, an accelerating trend that has contributed to U.S. job losses in recent years and has become an issue in the 2004 elections, is contained in the president's annual report to Congress on the health of the economy.
? ?
"Outsourcing is just a new way of doing international trade," said N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisors, which prepared the report. "More things are tradable than were tradable in the past. And that's a good thing."
The report, which predicts that the nation will reverse a three-year employment slide by creating 2.6 million jobs in 2004, is part of a weeklong effort by the administration to highlight signs that the recovery is picking up speed. Bush's economic stewardship has become a central issue in the presidential campaign, and the White House is eager to demonstrate that his policies are producing results.

In his message to Congress on Monday, Bush said the economy "is strong and getting stronger," thanks in part to his tax cuts and other economic programs. He said the nation had survived a stock market meltdown, recession, terrorist attacks, corporate scandals and war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and was finally beginning to enjoy "a mounting prosperity that will reach every corner of America."

The president repeated that message during an afternoon discussion about the economy at SRC Automotive, an engine-rebuilding plant in Springfield, Mo., where he lashed out at lawmakers who oppose making his tax cuts permanent.
"When they say, 'We're going to repeal Bush's tax cuts,' that means they're going to raise your taxes, and that's wrong. And that's bad economics," he said.

Democrats who want Bush's job were quick to challenge his claims.

Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, supports a rollback of Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and backs the creation of tax incentives for companies that keep jobs in the United States. However, he supported the North American Free Trade Agreement, which many union members say is responsible for the migration of U.S. jobs, particularly in the auto industry, to Mexico.

Campaigning Monday in Roanoke, Va., Kerry questioned the credibility of the administration's job-creation forecast.
"I've got a feeling this report was prepared by the same people who brought us the intelligence on Iraq," Kerry said. "I don't think we need a new report about jobs in America. I think we need a new president who's going to create jobs in America and put Americans back to work."

In an evening appearance at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina mocked the Bush administration's economic report.

Edwards, who also supports repealing tax cuts for the richest Americans and offering incentives to corporations that create new jobs in the United States, said it would come as a "news bulletin" to the American people that the economy was improving and that the outsourcing of jobs was good for America.

"These people," he said of the Bush administration, "what planet do they live on? They are so out of touch."

The president's 411-page report contains a detailed diagnosis of the forces the White House says are contributing to America's economic slowdown and a wide-ranging defense of the policies Bush has pursued to combat it.

It asserts that the last recession actually began in late 2000, before the president took office, instead of March 2001, as certified by the official recession-dating panel of the National Bureau of Economic Research.

Much of the report repeats the administration's previous economic prescriptions.

For instance, it says the Bush tax cuts must be made permanent to have their full effect on the economy.

Social Security also must be restructured to let workers put part of their retirement funds in private accounts, the report argues. Doing so could add nearly $5 trillion to the national debt by 2036, the president's advisors note, but the additional borrowing would be repaid 20 years later and the program's long-term health would be more secure.

The report devotes an entire chapter to an issue that has become increasingly troublesome for the administration: the loss of 2.8 million manufacturing jobs since Bush took office, and critics' claims that his trade policies are partly to blame.

His advisors acknowledge that international trade and foreign outsourcing have contributed to the job slump. But the report argues that technological progress and rising productivity ? the ability to produce more goods with fewer workers ? have played a bigger role than the flight of production to China and other low-wage countries.

Although trade expansion inevitably hurts some domestic workers, the benefits eventually will outweigh the costs as Americans are able to buy cheaper goods and services and as new jobs are created in growing sectors of the economy, the report said.

The president's report endorses the relatively new phenomenon of outsourcing high-end, white-collar work to India and other countries, a trend that has stirred concern within such affected occupations as computer programming and medical diagnostics.

"Maybe we will outsource a few radiologists," Mankiw told reporters. "What does that mean? Well, maybe the next generation of doctors will train fewer radiologists and will train more general practitioners or surgeons?. Maybe we've learned that we don't have a comparative advantage in radiologists."

Government should try to salve the short-term disruption by helping displaced workers obtain the training they need to enter new fields, such as healthcare, Mankiw said, not by erecting protectionist barriers on behalf of vulnerable industries or professions. "The market is the best determinant of where the jobs should be," he said.

Bush's quick visit to Missouri ? his 15th to a state considered a critical election battleground ? was the first of several events this week intended to underscore recent economic gains. Although U.S. job creation remains relatively sluggish, the nation's unemployment rate fell from 6.4% in June to 5.6% in January, and the economy grew at the fastest pace in 20 years during the last half of 2003.

The format of his visit to SRC Automotive ? one that he particularly likes ? involved several employees and local business owners sharing the stage with the president to discuss their perspectives on the economy, with Bush elaborating on their stories to emphasize particular aspects of his economic program.

Today, Bush is scheduled to meet with economic leaders at the White House. On Thursday, he goes to Pennsylvania's capital, Harrisburg ? in another swing state that he has already visited more than two dozen times since becoming president.

Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times
Reprinted from The Los Angeles Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/
nation/la-na-bushecon10feb10,1,4291187.story

pinky


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