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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said: Yeah well you never did a 3 month kratom taper now did you? That is the golden ticket. 
I haven't. If i did a 7 day Subutex taper though, I would be back to 100% physically 2 weeks after the last dose of subutex. Which means it would be over and i'd be clean for 2.5 months during which you would still be tapering. That is a benefit to the bupe taper. I would rather it be over for 2.5 months before coming off the kratom. To each their own though, what ever works for you is all that matters.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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idunno switching from dope to kratom was more or less painless for me, where at this point even if I wait 24h I get horrible precipitated withdrawals from bupe, and never really feel ok on it. I never used to feel ok on kratom either tho, but the past 30 days it has worked.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Yeah but you're still taking something everyday to prevent WD. I'm not talking about maintenance, i'm talking about detox.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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daz01
Learning


Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 4,652
Loc: Scotland
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said: I'd prefer a 3 month kratom taper.
3 months? Don't you think that's a bit too long and perhaps you are making that long because you don't want to come opioids? Shit, nothing wrong with using Kratom long term if it keeps you off the stronger stuff but ya gotta be honest with your true intentions Moon.
If you come off Kratom after 3 months use, you're still going to go through PAWS as your body and brain is not getting the chance to repair itself.
-------------------- Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.
Edited by daz01 (09/22/16 09:59 PM)
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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Re: Opiate addicts support group [Re: daz01]
#23669635 - 09/22/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dude last time I came off suboxone I literally couldn't see straight for 2 weeks. 1 month ago I was dosing kratom 4 times/day and not feeling ok at all, and now I dose much less only 1x/day.
I am doing so well it's ridiculous, and it;s a sad coincidence that it will be hard to kick with kratom after this. Also I will probably break down and die when I run out but I'm trying not to think of that.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Are you actually planning to come off of the kratom? Or are you just trying to convince yourself you might if you feel like it and justifying its use by telling yourself it's not dope what's the big deal?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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daz01
Learning


Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 4,652
Loc: Scotland
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said: Dude last time I came off suboxone I literally couldn't see straight for 2 weeks. 1 month ago I was dosing kratom 4 times/day and not feeling ok at all, and now I dose much less only 1x/day.
I am doing so well it's ridiculous, and it;s a sad coincidence that it will be hard to kick with kratom after this. Also I will probably break down and die when I run out but I'm trying not to think of that.
It's not a sad coincidence. You can't expect to quit opioids with no pain at all. I was so happy when I was free from opiates because of Kratom. I used it for around 2 weeks and then started to panic because I could not get anymore. The psychoactive ban in the UK was a blessing for me, crazily enough. If it wasn't banned, I am 100% certain I would still be addicted to Kratom/an opioid. Everything happens for a reason, small or big.
It's gonna fucking suck but it'll make you stronger
-------------------- Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Opiate addicts support group [Re: daz01]
#23669702 - 09/22/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
daz01 said: It's not a sad coincidence. You can't expect to quit opioids with no pain at all.
That was the first thing I said. There is no free lunch in coming off of opiods. There is no other way to get around it. It sucks. It's uncomfortable and it's painful and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy but it is possible.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said: Are you actually planning to come off of the kratom? Or are you just trying to convince yourself you might if you feel like it and justifying its use by telling yourself it's not dope what's the big deal?
I was planning to stay on it indefinitely until I heard it was being banned.
I'd say it is a pretty big deal. I feel like I wish I felt when I was clean on kratom. It's kinda funny because when I am using I always hold a job and stay on top of my responsibilities, and every time I get clean I get progressively crazier until I stop caring and cave.
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daz01
Learning


Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 4,652
Loc: Scotland
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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I would not try to rationalise anything anymore, especially with "but my life is currently fine ONLY when I use". You are very serious about wanting to get clean, whether that's only because you don't high or deep down you really do know this is no way to live.
At the end of the day, it's as simple as using Kratom to detox (3 to 4 weeks max imo) and then learning to enjoy life without any "hard" drugs. There really is no other way unless you want to live for opiates.
-------------------- Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.
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Murzelpfrumpft
pet donkey in a lucid dream

Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1,855
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
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Re: Opiate addicts support group [Re: daz01]
#23673162 - 09/24/16 07:21 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you guys feel that the depression from PAWS is worse than the one caused by a slow taper or the one you get from chronic use of opioids in general?
Could several of you chime in on those 3 situations?
I'm asking because I feel like I would find a good occasion within the next half year to quit. But since I have chronic pain and depressive tendency anyways, I am unsure if quitting might cause a depression to bad to study on. I'm finishing my degree in those 6 months away from home. If it's likely to be worse, I will have to postpone it, as I can even now barely find enough motivation to learn.
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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I think PAWS is a possibility no matter how you stop, but taking a plunge and making changes in life can be a good way to combat it actually. The real problem is falling back into old habits and unhealthy coping mechanism.
I'm of the opinion that kicking is traumatic in the short term, but the real challenge comes after the acute sickness is over. I mean focusing on one thing, quitting opiates, is relatively easy compared to managing your life in a way that will change who you are enough so that you don't freak out and run back to opiates the first time you get bored/lonely/sad/angry/anxious/depressed. Those are just things that are probably going to be part of your life.
Don't listen to that "I can't do this" voice in you head. That's bullshit, you're worth it and you can do whatever you set your mind to. Don't let fear of depression hold you back from doing what you want to do. I would say give yourself at least 2 weeks to a month of time to recover if you've been hooked a long time, but otherwise you shouldn't let fear of PAWS hold you back.
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olson
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/12
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Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said: I mean focusing on one thing, quitting opiates, is relatively easy compared to managing your life in a way that will change who you are enough so that you don't freak out and run back to opiates the first time you get bored/lonely/sad/angry/anxious/depressed. Those are just things that are probably going to be part of your life.
That's definitely true in my experience. I think PAWS is mostly psychological. It isn't even a DSM recognized disorder so I wouldn't worry too much about physiological changes in your brain as a result of long term opioid use. There are certain symptoms such as random fatigue and anhedonia but they are manageable and seem to lessen with each passing week. Learning to cope with life stresses is a different story though and that is the one that will really test your resolve to quit once and for all.
--------------------
Kinesin, a motor protein, shuttling a vesicle full of cargo such as glucose or even neurotransmitters across a cell. This little guy struts along the microtubule using ATP as fuel.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Opiate addicts support group [Re: olson]
#23681352 - 09/26/16 09:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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They only PAWS stuff I deal with that i know for sure is PAWS is insomnia. The other stuff like depression and anxiety is all stuff I have as a result of being born in this body not the heroin use.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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Ive been doing really well with poppy seed tea the past few months as a form of maintenance. I was clean of opiates completely for several months before using the tea. I found myself relying on alcohol almost daily though in that time.
I had a strict rule of never drinking before dark and never drinking more than a halfpint of booze or a 6pack of beer. I feel like the needle forever fucked me. I really dont see myself being completely sober in my lifetime.
I look down at my forever needle scarred hands and arms and it deeply bothers me. No matter how healthy i am, how nice i dress or how much i keep up on my physical appearance.. Its like I'll always be tainted.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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You're not the only one with fucked up scared arms that will never go away. I stopped giving a fuck and trying to hide it a while ago. It is what it is, hiding it and being neurotic about just makes it more stressful. It's never going away so just learn to live with it.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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Definitely truth in that. The more i try to hide it and worry about it, the more i actually draw attention to myself. Mostly i dont care but it still is something that gets me down when i am down. Then every once and a while i get looks from people and then they act different around me.
Funny thing is that due to a medical condition, ive been forced to dose my medicine intravenously for my whole life. Id have to and still have to do iv injections as frequently as 3 times a week. People would see the marks on my arms and accuse me of being an addict long before i ever was. 23 gauge butterfly leaves a hell of a mark too.
I used to be able to keep the track marks at bay until i started with the heroin. Its wrecked my hands/arms. Its a special kind of hell having to do iv injections for medical reasons. It gets my mind racing regularly...
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
Posts: 15,622
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Track marks will heal, the only times I have seen tracks that look horrible, were from people who were using black tar for years, and did not have access to fresh gear.
They will take a while to heal though, eventually fading to a spot which isn't that noticeable.
-------------------- ©️
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Mush 4 Brains
about tree fiddy


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 8,298
Loc: Tacos
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Re: Opiate addicts support group [Re: Lucis]
#23681809 - 09/27/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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No man, mine will never heal unfortunately. They're bad, they've faded but are still very visible. Its not just the dope, ive had medical reasons to iv my medicine for my whole life which has left me with lifelong scars.
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egodeathflux
Guttersnipe



Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 3,854
Loc: The Stygian Pits
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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I started a job last year (only lasted a week, lol) but I was wearing an "elbow support" to hide the worst tracks on one inner elbow, have actually broken that arm and it crunches like a bag of powdered bones and rusty nails when I twist it, so have a believable excuse.
Most of mine have faded to the point of a few dark areas in very random spots, I have a ton of huge scars from slicing myself up with razors/knives/keys/cigarettes from more than 20 years ago that are WAY more obvious and don't seem to fade at all, in fact they seem to stand out more as the years go by. I dunno what people would judge me more by tbh.
I kinda stopped worrying and have been using the spike the least amount since my habit started the last month or so, hands have healed up really well, think inner arms are always gonna have those telltale streaks though.
It has been a part of our lives, maybe try to use them as a reminder of how fucked up things can get more than something to be ashamed of..?
I dunno, have you tried that Bio-Oil stuff? Used to reduce stretch marks/scars etc, can be pretty effective and could be worth a try.
Been having dope dreams last couple of nights, pay day tomorrow so subconscious has been running wild, will have a cheat day or 2 then gt back on the PPT, been doing good recently, got money left from last pay day for first time in couple of years, so minor progress I guess.
-------------------- "Atrophic interludes weave through my life far too often, for me to fight the biggest enemies" "Standing on the corner of 5th and Vermouth"
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