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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy"
    #2324139 - 02/11/04 02:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2324194 - 02/11/04 02:56 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Full employment puts upward pressure on wages.

It's also hard to keep the help in line when they can dump your sorry ass at any moment to take a better job, if it exists. Better if you can dump their sorry ass and ship their job to Mexico or India for a fraction of the cost.

The good news is that this will result in lower prices for consumers. The ones who still have jobs and money to buy stuff with, that is.

They're just people, after all. Easily replacable fecal, er, I mean, organic matter.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2324247 - 02/11/04 03:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

He's rehashing that same, old tired "market-knows-what's-best-for society" crap.

as opposed to that old, "central authorities should tell people how to use their productive potential, what exchanges they may make, and with whom they may make them" crap.

"The loss of work to other countries, while painful in the short term, will enrich the economy eventually, his report to Congress says."

i'm guessing that the critics of this are supporters of tariffs... tariffs intended to "protect" american jobs. is that right?


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2324609 - 02/11/04 04:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

the problem is that it's not just bottom rung jobs
that are being exported...

all those lovely, high tech service positions are also
going overseas.

not quite sure what that leaves us here...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2324902 - 02/11/04 05:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: faith-based economics...i have the same ? as edwards ..what planet does shrub live on??...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2325374 - 02/11/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

He's rehashing that same, old tired "market-knows-what's-best-for society" crap.

as opposed to that old, "central authorities should tell people how to use their productive potential, what exchanges they may make, and with whom they may make them" crap.

"The loss of work to other countries, while painful in the short term, will enrich the economy eventually, his report to Congress says."

i'm guessing that the critics of this are supporters of tariffs... tariffs intended to "protect" american jobs. is that right?




Central authority ala communism? No my friend, just a democratic government type authority, on behalf of the people. You know, government of the people, by the people for the people. Not governmnet of the money, by the money, for the money.

Just cuz owners can make even more money by outsourcing what they can to slaves in another country don't make it good for that country. Or any country. On the contrary. And yes, tariffs are a good way to whip the market into shape.

There is no "market" anyways. It's still just people making the decisions...I support democracy (as in 'the people' owners, workers, pensioners, etc.) shaping society while 'free marketeers' support only owners (who are not democratically acountable) shaping society.

Yes, tariffs were a great way for nations to control their own economy (for the benefit of civilization)
This free trade crap in taking us back to an age of old. Of a class ridden civilization full of working poor with a small, rich ruling elite. Kinda like feudalism.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2325604 - 02/11/04 09:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Central authority ala communism?

there have been a lot of authoritarian governments which practiced central control over the private economic affairs of their citizens. it really doesn't matter which one you liken it to.

No my friend, just a democratic government type authority, on behalf of the people. You know, government of the people, by the people for the people.

that's what i'm talking about. the democratic, "for the people" way to regulate the economy is to enforce contracts and nothing more. there is nothing free and democratic about forcefully terminating or penalizing a voluntary transaction. an american TV manufacturer has got no more of a right to penalize me for purchasing a foreign TV than it's got to penalize for me not purchasing one at all.

This free trade crap in taking us back to an age of old.

it's odd that you mention that, because the "age of old" featured highly regulated markets... mercantilism, the guilds, feudalism, communism, and fascism just to give a few examples.

what is a tariff really?

a tariff is a penalty on consensual voluntary action. producer A has convinced the government to penalize you for buying from producer B, so that you will buy from A instead. it's tyrannical. you should be able to buy from whomever you choose to buy from, and without penalty.

furthermore, tariffs are not good economic policy.

free trade means that everyone is doing that in which they have got a comparitive advantage. were we to apply the same principles of the anti-free trade people to domestic markets, we could have a tariff in florida against maple syrup to protect the maple growers there and a tariff in maine against oranges to protect the orange growers there. applied to a single household, one could prohibit the purchase of clothing so that half the family would always be employed making clothes. it would be absurd. specialization and division of labor are good things.

let's say that a domestic television costs $400. a similar imported television from a japanese producer costs $300. to protect the domestic television manufacturer, a $100 per TV tariff has been enacted. american jobs are saved, the machines are running, and we're buying american. it looks as though the tariff has saved the day.

but that's only if we look on the surface. if we look at the bigger picture, we see that now, for every television bought, people have $100 less to spend on other things. as a result, less people are employed in other industries. looking even further, we see that if american's were allowed to buy their TV's from japan, they would pay in dollars, which would eventually be used to purchase american products by purchasers abroad. the TV tariff has helped the american TV manufacturers at the unfair expense of everyone else, and the net effect is a waste of resources.

this isn't advanced economics, it's common sense. look for the bigger picture.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
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Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2325741 - 02/12/04 03:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

..."unemployment will help the economy"


Well it does help a certain sector, the rich.

Because high unemloyment means low inflation, which makes any country the candy shop of the rich, making it easier to buy when things look good and leave, and create more unemployment when you go, and the cylce begins anew, almost like nature except its  sick and twisted :smile:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2326320 - 02/12/04 12:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

but that's only if we look on the surface. if we look at the bigger picture, we see that now, for every television bought, people have $100 less to spend on other things. as a result, less people are employed in other industries.




if you look at the bigger picture..then you must take into account the macro decline in wages that will result when every sector of the economy follows the example of the TV set..which will inevitably outweigh any decline in the price thats on the shelf...for example the TV is now $100 cheaper..but on the average..the customers are now earning $110 less since the last time they paid $400 for the TV...in this case..they actally have $10 less to spend on other goods & services...this in turn will put more pressure on producers to cut costs..which will then cause an even greater decline in purchasing power...the big picture is a race to the bottom...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2326443 - 02/12/04 01:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
..."unemployment will help the economy"

Well it does help a certain sector, the rich.



It makes no sense for the rich to want less people to be able to buy products or services if the rich rely on income form any sort of business venture. How do you increase your customer base or your sales if a greater number of people have less disposable income?

Quote:

Because high unemloyment means low inflation,



Actually, no. There are many historical examples of both high unemployment and high inflation coexisting. Inflation is an increase in the circulating money supply, the effect being an increase in the prices of goods and services as the value of the currency decreases. Rising prices are a consequence of inflation.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2326730 - 02/12/04 02:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

if you look at the bigger picture..then you must take into account the macro decline in wages that will result when every sector of the economy follows the example of the TV set..

please explain why will there be a decline in wages (real or nominal) as a result.

for example the TV is now $100 cheaper..but on the average..the customers are now earning $110 less since the last time they paid $400 for the TV...in this case..they actally have $10 less to spend on other goods & services...

why are people now earning less?


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2326968 - 02/12/04 03:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

as one who is currently unemployed, I must say FUCK YOU BUSH YOU FUCKING MORON WHAT THE HELL KIND OF LOGIC IS THIS?

IS WHAT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY GOOD FOR MANKIND?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2327042 - 02/12/04 03:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

here's a question for you...

what could the government actually do (other than directly employ you) to better your employment situation. how can the government help your job prospects?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327056 - 02/12/04 03:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
here's a question for you...

what could the government actually do (other than directly employ you) to better your employment situation. how can the government help your job prospects?



Well, I'm no economist, but do you think there might be some correlation between the massive deficit and unemployment?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327075 - 02/12/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

they can attempt to keep jobs here in our country instead of just watching all of the corporations "export" their jobs just because they can pay people cheaper wages in other countries


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2327094 - 02/12/04 03:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

you could follow the same principles at home and refuse to import from outside producers. then you could be fully employed making stuff like soap.

punishing people for not purchasing goods you have produced certainly might be a way to boost your chances of employment, but is that right?

what line of work would you like to be in?
what are your qualifications?


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2327112 - 02/12/04 03:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm no economist, but do you think there might be some correlation between the massive deficit and unemployment?

in the longrun, the deficit boosts interest rates and discourages investment.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327116 - 02/12/04 03:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have the most experience in customer support, an industry being exported more quickly than any other.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: Strumpling]
    #2327143 - 02/12/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have the most experience in customer support, an industry being exported more quickly than any other.

well... if i'm having computer problems, why shouldn't i be able to call a guy in india for customer support? why should i be punished for not calling you? because you need a job?

because i can buy overseas customer support cheaper, i have more money to spend somewhere else, which will employ someone else. to pay the indian guy on the phone, the company must buy rupees with dollars. now india has more dollars to spend on american products.

it's unfortunate that you're out of a job, but forcing people to employ you is an unfair assault on everyone's freedom of association and it hurts our economic situation in order to better yours.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
Re: Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy" [Re: ]
    #2327258 - 02/12/04 04:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"it's unfortunate that you're out of a job, but forcing people to employ you is an unfair assault on everyone's freedom of association and it hurts our economic situation in order to better yours."

You're personalizing this too much

There are thousands of people just like me who have honed their skills for various types of jobs (many people way older than me,having dedicated half their lives to these specific positions, and way less capable of learning some of the newer tech jobs), and these jobs are getting sucked right out of our country due to executive greed. Hooray its great for the economy; the rich get richer! This is the same kind of thing that happened to tons of stores all throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s with corporations swooping in and destroying small businesses, but who cares because the overall numbers keep going up, right?

This could just be perspective messing with me, but it sure feels fucked up to me.... guess its time to become a shoe salesman.

anyway, I'm going to agree to disagree with you - perhaps if I find a corporate asshole position at some large company and start making a fucking fortune by downsizing and relocating job positions and being an executive scumbag, I'll be cheering this on and saying "aww just get another job you buncha losers!"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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