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 MarkostheGnostic
Elder
 
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell  [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5154159 - 01/08/06 12:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I seem to be getting more conscious, and I feel like I'm awakening from 'The Matrix' of unconscious assumptions! This blows my mind because such awakening is what I've been pursuing for 30+ years since my fist psychedelic sessions, but only relatively recently does this seem to be acquiring a degree of 'Realization' - being made real, actual (as in self-realization, self-actualization). The more I read, think about, compare with my personal history and with world history; the more I contemplate while in ordinary or non-ordinary reality, the more I Realize how much mythology has been a part of the edifice of my religious belief. Many 'bricks' have not been made with the same 'density' of psychic material. I do not have to 'demythologize' my beliefs, I have to 'deconstruct' the entire edifice and rebuild it with uniform material. I am no longer content to build my belief with materials just because the 'bricks' fit! All the material MUST be of uniform reality.
In other words, I cannot accept a Jesus story that is constructed of very questionable historical elements, and very obvious mythological elements that are then illuminated by very contrived intellectual 'light.' The historical Jesus (for example) must be dismissed as an object of faith for simple lack of evidence. All we are left with are writings which allege historical events but are rife with miraculous, supernatural events. Supernatural events in the Bible are midrashic illustrations of spiritual principles - dramatic linguistic illustrations. Midrash is closer to mythology than historicity. Paradoxically, Jesus remains my Lord and spiritual master!
In what seems like another lifetime, I remember reading the Hindu epics and knew from the get-go that these writings were mythological not historical in nature. Yet I 'got the point' from the stories and could understand how they related to my own life thousands of years after some of these stories were written. Hindus do not try to convince themselves that these stories are historical, because Hinduism is an 'acosmic' religion not a 'historical' religion. Yet, within historical religions, east and west, each has a mystical tradition and mysticism belongs to an 'acosmic' category - the object of one's spiritual aspiration does not lie in history and society but in domains that transcend these physical conditions. That is why People of the Book fight to the death over historical geography, and Hindus care very little about physical conditions. People fight over land, ownership, they do not fight over myth, even sacred myth. Ideology just becomes an excuse for baser interests.
Those individuals from historical religions who have been blessed with religious experiences of a mystical type, and who have their perspectives changed forever by the experience[s], are mystics. Mystics within Christianity, Judaism and Islam have more often than not been accused of heresy, apostasy, forced to recant or be put to death, sometimes horribly. Gnostics were slandered as cowards because they did not masochistically accept martyrdom and often recanted. They were not making a 'statement' for the 'record' (history) but would continue to live and be Gnostics (inwardly, where it matters). Many Shroomerites have had mystical experiences. Some Know it some do not. Those who Know it may be struggling, as I have, to translate those experiences into the construction of a personality based upon said experiences. Such a mystic personality will often be characterized by tolerance, by open-mindedness and yet, not in an 'anything goes' antinomian, libertarian (or worse, libertine) way, but as supported by Compassion as the basis for one's personal ethics and morality.
What am I saying? Over and against scholars like Heinrich Zimmer who denied that Mescaline experiences were true mystical experiences, and on the side of Albert Hofmann, Huston Smith, Richard Alpert, Timothy Leary, Terrence McKenna, Ken Wilber, Alex Grey and many others, there are budding mystics and gnostics whose 'blooms' of (lotus-like) enfoldment were initiated by the 'bloom-enhancing' psychedelics/entheogens. We too are being condemned by the those bitter souls who are unconscious 'bricks' of the religious establishment.
Sorry for the long post. I don't usually drink coffee this late in the day, and I basically used your response as a spring-board to rant about this stuff. It is exhilerating to feel like I am growing with the rapidity of an adolescent at my current age. (Maybe the new 50 IS the "new 30."  )
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/09/06 05:28 AM)
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 I began my spiritual growth spurt at 50 and have found that the 50s are the time I am really finally able to make use of the many things I had been reading the previous 30 years. I cannot believe the level of growth and challenge that life has brought to me at this later part of life.
Just when I thought I was stuck forever and going nowhere. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
#5155701 - 01/08/06 06:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the reification!
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MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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 Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
#5155728 - 01/08/06 06:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're fifty?? I never knew!
See, that's why I like this forum. It's where all the wise old guys chill at.  
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: MOTH]
#5155732 - 01/08/06 06:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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He's almost 53, and just like a fine wine.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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I do not have to 'demythologize' my beliefs, I have to 'deconstruct' the entire edifice and rebuild it with uniform material. I am no longer content to build my belief with materials just because the 'bricks' fit! All the material MUST be of uniform reality.
What motivates you toward deconstructionism? As a philosophical movement it has largely played itself out, ending either in hard skepticism or materialistic atheism.
And why must every block be uniform? If you are building a monolithic wall, then perhaps this makes sense, but more beautiful and more complex structures require a multitude of distinctly different, yet interrelated, parts.
A Gothic cathedral comes to mind. Limestone, marbles, wood, colored glass...
Even the great pyramids required more than a single material.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
#5157831 - 01/09/06 10:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I began my spiritual growth spurt at 50 and have found that the 50s are the time I am really finally able to make use of the many things I had been reading the previous 30 years. I cannot believe the level of growth and challenge that life has brought to me at this later part of life.
Same here, but I'm only 21.
I doubt I will make it to 50, but I wonder what such an age will have in store for me then.... 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
#5157855 - 01/09/06 10:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
And why must every block be uniform? If you are building a monolithic wall, then perhaps this makes sense, but more beautiful and more complex structures require a multitude of distinctly different, yet interrelated, parts.
Obviously, and yet all of these beautiful and more complex structures reduce down to the same basic components. It would seem that this is what he is alluding to.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5158222 - 01/09/06 12:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can only imagine the grandure. You will leave enlightenment far behind. You may just find the final answer and can wake up from the dream.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
#5158382 - 01/09/06 01:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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He's almost 53, and just like a fine wine.
Vinegary?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
#5158385 - 01/09/06 01:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I had my greatest growth as an embryo. Oh, the things I learned!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Swami]
#5158388 - 01/09/06 01:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fine wines get better with age, as you well know.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Veritas]
#5158739 - 01/09/06 03:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
He's almost 53, and just like a fine winer.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: Icelander]
#5158815 - 01/09/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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NO, no, I meant to say "wino"!!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: shroomydan]
#5159156 - 01/09/06 05:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ah, causing me to re-examine my metaphor are you? I was not referring to deconstructionism as a philosophical movement, but rather in the sense of my need to build a faith-stance in which there is a structural integrity. I realize that the best of our concrete superstructures (skyscrapers, bridges, etc.) have miniscule pockets of beer cans embedded within them, and it is hard to see how the structural integrity of those edifices are compromised. But, if there is too much filler in the Portland cement, a structure will not stand up to an Earth-shaking event, and the structure will collapse catestrophically. This happened to me once before when my Transcendental Meditation world view failed to support a major life crisis.
I must relegate my belief to the historical, and consider the supernatural/mythological events to be weak spots (if taken literally), or refuse to see the Bible as anything BUT mythological through and through. For years I believed that at least 'some' events took place historically, and I chose Biblical faith because I chose to believe that the mythological domain actually became manifest historically, whereas 'other' faiths remained in the domain of pure mythology. This was the same foolish prejudice that Fundamentalist Christians profess. I now see all of the religious stories as mythos, and feel liberated from that unconsciously rooted bigotry. I always asked myself "What does this really mean?" when I read Biblical stories, and never took them at face value anyway. I was not a Tertullian who based his belief on the irrational ("I believe because it is absurd"), I believed because it resonated with Experiences I had. Like 'doubting' Thomas I had to see to believe - a disciple that the Bible portrays as less 'faithful' because "You have seen and have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." Yet, Paul himself did not believe until he was knocked on his ass on the road to Damascus, so the former portrayal was probably a later insertion. (One has to consider the obvious inconsistencies of Biblical theology to be due to later commentaries by other writers in the name of the original).
I will not regress to materialism (I can't imagine how that could happen since I believe in the efficacy of prayer and have witnessed even petitionary prayers of the most particular type granted!) Mythological does NOT mean unreal, it is quite Real. The 'I-Thou' relationship with GOD is Real. The words attributed to Jesus are about 'how it Really is' are spiritually accurate yet the stories themselve are clearly midrashic/mythic. Nativity scenes, virgin births, astronomical anomalies are repeated throughout antiquity at the birth of a divine hero. My life has been enriched by faith in Christ as the goal of human development, call Him Son of GOD or Son of Man if you like (it is not a unique title among the ancient Hebrews anyway). Faith in anything tangible is idolatry and faith in a myth is a "controlled folly" (as Casteneda would've called it), but my folly or my foolishness has yielded more Wisdom than I ever would've expected.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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majicman30
naturejunkie
Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 749
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt]
#23226776 - 05/14/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
CUBErt said: Yes I know it's Old & a Good one Too.
The other day I was sitting with some friends downtown and we were approached by two young guys who stopped to ask us if we were 100% sure we would go to heaven if we died. I thought to myself "can anyone be 100% sure?" But I remained silent while they spoke with my other, blatantly anti-christian friends. Their whole deal was about accepting Jesus and asking us if we really had a concept of hell and if we really wanted to go there. When I began speaking, I explained that I had gone to Catholic school for 10 years and knew plenty about Christianity, but that I began to question the faith as I got older. (Now for the part that really bothered me) I started asking them about the legitimacy of other major religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. I said that I considered myself Christian but that there are many other faiths that connect us all to the same God with many of the same basic moral standards. In reply they said that these religions were all missing Jesus Christ, the mid-point between us and God. So then I asked "what about people who live in isolation and never hear about Jesus? are they going to hell?" They said that the Bible says that everybody gets a chance to hear about God. I do not remember seeing that in the Bible but perhaps they were right. They used the Bible passage "I am the way, the truth, and the light. Nobody cometh unto the father except through me."
Anyways, since then I have just been feeling somewhat upset. My friend argued with them that Christianity is a bunch of paranoia, and I would consider myself a pretty paranoid person. I have been thinking alot:
-Wondering if I might be hell-bound
-Thinking of all the wonderful people on these boards and that I know in person who would be denied eternal bliss for believing something that is just as practical to them as Jesus Christ is to Christians.
-Coming to terms with the thought that I may have only remained Christian for so long for fear of hell.
-Wondering how a God of infinite wisdom could expect human beings all to jump on the same bandwagon when there are so many untrustworthy people around, especially in religion.
I was just wondering how other people felt about this issue, and hoping to gain some insight from those who are more well-read on spirituality then myself.
My openion the whole Deal is........ My Dad is not too Christian like, but he is illiterate & quit school in the third grade. So I feel highly that I not only talk to God & Jesus throughout the day, but they communicate back with me on an equal level. My Dad & Mother both are about equal on this accept my Mom is not illiterate, so She will have to work a little harder at it, and I will try to help them. My Dad is kinda hard-headed, so I only get a little in here and a little in there. It is kinda hard sometimes. I have told my Brethern that He needed to come home with me or He was going to Hell one time in Speaking in Tongues Well & that Our Mom & Dad were REAL & Jesus Loved them too. But he did not come with me. I ran out of the house screaming there is something Evil in the house & I had to go home. (They were smoking JO (Synthetic marijuana)I also pointed at their package & called it out Specifically. I ran home & then kind was freaked out a bit, but was good a bit later. "speaking in Tongues"(I concider tongues as this "When Jesus takes control over your movements & words, and yes you have no control whatsoever.) It's happened to me about five times before. Well sorry for rambling so much it's just that reading this old thread has gotten me all excited I guess. What I am getting at is basically My Mom & Dad live well & help others all the time constantly, but they still should ask for forgiveness at least one time. I know most people wouldn't agree with this concept of them Going to Heaven so easily, but who really knows? Yes this Thread & this Post is kind of alott of reading to some people so... but I am convinced it is True because I have been told. You know a multitude of sin can be hidden by good deeds & Love & GOD Basically. So I guess I am disagreeing with the old Martin Luther's(Original one) concept on Rebirth & being Born Again. I have also recently found out that I am pretty Ps chic Myself. I found this out by playing with an old deck of cards & went by the concept that I was Reborn again in Spirit, but still the same person somehow Miraculously. It is great & I Love them with all my heart. I don't claim the ownership of anything even though I have Plenty. I love Everyone with all my heart & help everyone & welcome them with with Open arms! I Believe in Jesus Christ & worship God & am best friends with Both. But I Perceive a bigger picture than most Christians that just leave it to Just what the Bible says(I am Heavily Intrigued by the Bible & think it is Miraculous itself & yes it is a Powerful Book. Even though some of it might be bent or changed up a little. Also some taken out & left out also possibly.) It would be too much for the Average Christian to know Everything Or Even almost Everything, but some people can handle it & they know it. It takes a Strong Individual & they are out there by the numbers. Just sometimes they fall Offtrack or Unbalanced & Need a little Help. You Do have to Be Accepted & have to continue to do good. I you don't continue, then Yes You Have TO Start over. Be careful who knows how many chances you will get, and yes some people might get more chances than others. Peace & Love
Edited by majicman30 (05/14/16 05:08 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: CUBErt] 1
#23231128 - 05/15/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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The often-quoted John 14:6 refers not to the particularities of a 1st century Judean carpenter, but to the Logos to which Jesus was ostensibly referring in that passage. Nobody comes to God unless they have identified themselves through agapé, the Christian accepted form of love. That being said, it is not about a man - fictional or historical - which is salvific. Your evangelizers were conveyors of a very shallow and mythic-level of understanding. Undoubtedly they knew nothing about the author who was eventually named John, and the philosophical work on the Logos that John took from the Hellenistic Jewish Platonist Philo of Alexandria.
Although the Prologue (pro-logos) of John refers to the Logos in English as "Word," word is but one meaning of Logos, and by word, it is not the written or spoken word to which John refers. In Greek, the Logos is the manifest aspect of God which one realizes when one's consciousness is "in Christ," in or identified with the Logos. This is a universal level of consciousness, The Witness, or what occultists began to call Christ Consciousness or "Cosmic Consciousness" (after the book written by R.M. Bucke in 1900). "The Word was with God, and the Word was God," says John 1:1, but unlike God the Father which is utterly transcendental and unmanifested, the Logos is an emanation or a prolation in theology of God manifested - the "only begotten Son," which is an anthropomorphic expression of the Godhead's manifestation as Being. If this Logos is an Eternal Reality then you were correct to intuit that it is what is sought in every world religion. Indeed, it can be found conceptually everywhere, including Pagan Neoplatonism as Nous.
I have been studying this issue for over 40 years now. I am 38 years graduated from a reputable Christian seminary, and I can say confidently that the Logos is not identical with a man, let alone a 1st century man (even if he did exist historically), and that an intellectual 'belief' does not have any gravitas over a life lived with compassion, humility, and tolerance (respect) for other's lives. Christian imperialism that denies the validity of other religious traditions is a matter of bigotry so stupid that it has long condemned the very religion (Judaism) that Jesus belonged to and practiced himself! If you are Hell-bound it is because you must be some heinous sub-human torture-serial killer, child molester, defrauder of elderly people, genocidal dictator, or a similarly demonic being IMO. Otherwise, lighten up and decide to work on the sanctification of your life.  
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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majicman30
naturejunkie
Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 749
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That sounds very possible, but do you believe in Holy Spirit or that this Logos spoken of has an actual spirit or not? Good information to absorb. Peace
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[ /url ]     [url=http://files.shroomery.org/files/16-12/893004217-IMG_4581.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: majicman30]
#23231235 - 05/15/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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[Firstly, I can't believe that I just responde to a 10 year old resurrected post. D'OH!  ]
I don't "believe" anything. Beliefs are merely intellectual formulations. I have faith and beyond that I have gnosis. Christian trinitarian thought was first elaborated by Augustine of Hippo who had been a Neoplatonist for many years until his mom convinced him to become a Christian. Despite Christianity's theological denial that the Plotinian Neoplatonic 'World-Soul' is not identical with the Holy Spirit, it doesn't make any difference at all. Theology is the attempt of human beings to satisfy an intellectual curiosity which can never be satisfied by intellectual and rational explanations. What happens is that a formula is made dogma, a statement that is not supposed to be questioned or analyzed but rather 'believed,' which is really just an emotional response of surrender put in place of an adequate intellectual understanding. To say that God is "one substance in three persons" is a dogma. No human being can know, let alone articulate in language, what the essence of the Godhead is. Only God knows God's essence if anything.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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majicman30
naturejunkie
Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 749
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Re: Christianity and the threat of Hell [Re: majicman30]
#23232659 - 05/16/16 07:11 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks for your time again. I have just been doing a lot of thinking lately, but I see Truth in almost all that you have written. I also feel that things of this nature should not be questioned. Thank you again for the input. So let's let this old one fade back to the time again. Peace & Love
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[/url][url=http://files.shroomery.org/files/16-12/893004217-IMG_4581.
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