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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23213440 - 05/11/16 08:23 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

:cheers:


That being said, i still maintain those hardships are necessary.



Necessary/unnecessary are irrelevant.  It's impossible to put that genie back in the bottle.  Without a mass depopulation event, humans simply cannot reduce carbon emissions significantly enough to make a difference.




Well, not with that attitude.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23213458 - 05/11/16 08:33 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

My attitude isn't even a pimple on the ass of the problem.  The problem is that most of the world's population lives in abject poverty compared to the U.S.  If given the choice between clean water and some distant effects of global warming, they're going to go with clean water.  That choice, and millions of other similar choices, are made every day by humans.

It's very easy to sit in the U.S. and have lofty goals of carbon emission reduction.  It's a whole other thing to the billions on the planet whose lives are nasty, brutish, and short to even consider curtailing improving their lives by not adopting new technologies that involve carbon emissions.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23213483 - 05/11/16 08:52 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

I dont think its the people in the third world that need to make the concessions.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23213644 - 05/11/16 10:17 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

Yeah, 50 years ago, china was in the dark ages...now they are a huge emitter of carbon.  That's the trend, and you can expect the "third world" to be more and more of a factor over time.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23213658 - 05/11/16 10:20 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah, 50 years ago, china was in the dark ages...now they are a huge emitter of carbon.  That's the trend, and you can expect the "third world" to be more and more of a factor over time.




Hm thats a good point.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23213794 - 05/11/16 11:07 AM (8 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

:cheers:


That being said, i still maintain those hardships are necessary.



Necessary/unnecessary are irrelevant.  It's impossible to put that genie back in the bottle.  Without a mass depopulation event, humans simply cannot reduce carbon emissions significantly enough to make a difference.




Maybe we can reduce carbon emmissions, maybe we can't.  One thing that we can do though is reduce atmospheric carbon by storing it in restored grassland soils.  No economic hardship necessary.  The single most effective thing we can actually do to combat climate change is to restore the world's man-made deserts to the healthy grasslands that they once were, and it can be done quite easily with an inexpensive low tech strategy.  If you have 20 minutes to spare, check out this first video.  If you have 45 minutes to spare, check out the second one, its the same thing, but more in depth.  Anyone who cares about climate change or food scarcity around the world should spread the word about this.





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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23214427 - 05/11/16 02:05 PM (8 years, 8 days ago)

I'm allergic to grass.  That idea won't work.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23214453 - 05/11/16 02:11 PM (8 years, 8 days ago)

Allan Savory's theory has been widely criticized and debunked.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23216688 - 05/12/16 02:14 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
My attitude isn't even a pimple on the ass of the problem.  The problem is that most of the world's population lives in abject poverty compared to the U.S.  If given the choice between clean water and some distant effects of global warming, they're going to go with clean water.  That choice, and millions of other similar choices, are made every day by humans.

It's very easy to sit in the U.S. and have lofty goals of carbon emission reduction.  It's a whole other thing to the billions on the planet whose lives are nasty, brutish, and short to even consider curtailing improving their lives by not adopting new technologies that involve carbon emissions.




Yes, but if we invest in clean energy technologies, the third world will be more capable of adopting them. Also, if estimations on the development of fusion as an energy source are correct, then we're not too far off from having a very cheap and inexhaustible energy source. However, I can certainly see energy lobbyists fighting it tooth and nail. So, on that front, it is beneficial to create a political environment that is more eco-friendly.

The real problem here is that it's not a collective, worldwide priority. I believe that we would be capable of combatting climate change, as a species, not to say that is going to happen, but I like to push for it regardless. I actually believe that when this becomes a more seriously evident problem, resources will be thrown into solving it, and we will. Maybe I'm just being optimistic. I believe that when push comes to shove, we are capable of almost anything.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23217574 - 05/12/16 10:03 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Allan Savory's theory has been widely criticized and debunked.




I'm glad you brought that up.  To be clear, have you read the criticisms/debunkings?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23217828 - 05/12/16 11:16 AM (8 years, 7 days ago)

Yes, I have.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23220504 - 05/12/16 10:29 PM (8 years, 6 days ago)

And which raised the most concern for you?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23221088 - 05/13/16 02:53 AM (8 years, 6 days ago)

The basic fact that his proposed techniques have never yielded the results he claims are possible.  Here is a fairly good write-up on it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2013/04/allan_savory_s_ted_talk_is_wrong_and_the_benefits_of_holistic_grazing_have.html


For me, the bottom line always remains the same.  There are hundreds of proposed solutions to the carbon problem, but all of them are pure fantasy when scaled to a level commiserate with the problem.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23221278 - 05/13/16 05:05 AM (8 years, 6 days ago)

subbed to keep track of the discussion.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23221680 - 05/13/16 09:34 AM (8 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The basic fact that his proposed techniques have never yielded the results he claims are possible.  Here is a fairly good write-up on it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2013/04/allan_savory_s_ted_talk_is_wrong_and_the_benefits_of_holistic_grazing_have.html


For me, the bottom line always remains the same.  There are hundreds of proposed solutions to the carbon problem, but all of them are pure fantasy when scaled to a level commiserate with the problem.




I think it will require a variety of methods. We probably wouldn't even be having the problems of climate change if there wasn't so much deforestation of rainforests, or old growth forests. I have no scientific evidence to back that statement up. Just speculation.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23222475 - 05/13/16 01:59 PM (8 years, 6 days ago)

It would require billions of human beings to act in direct conflict with their own nature.  Good luck with that.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23222489 - 05/13/16 02:04 PM (8 years, 6 days ago)

the regulations can be given to corporate, while the corporate government can just plain leave people alone.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23229066 - 05/15/16 07:48 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Regulations?  If you think regulations can solve the carbon problem, you haven't taken a real look at any of it.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Enlil]
    #23229101 - 05/15/16 08:02 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Regulations?  If you think regulations can solve the carbon problem, you haven't taken a real look at any of it.




Haven't you heard? Progressives believe we can regulate ourselves out of any problem, whether it be low wages, global warming, inequality, poverty, hunger... The list goes on and on, and the more regulation fails to correct any of these problems, the more they call for more regulation. It makes perfect sense in the progressive world of unicorns and pixie dust


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23229407 - 05/15/16 10:08 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Regulations?  If you think regulations can solve the carbon problem, you haven't taken a real look at any of it.



i never said that. i said corporate can be given regulations in order -- not to curb the carbon problem -- but to not push the problem any further, with heedless notions of "we're fucked anyways, might as well just dump shit in the oceans anyway. that's all i am in favor of...slowing down the carbon problem, as opposed to letting it get further out of control.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Regulations?  If you think regulations can solve the carbon problem, you haven't taken a real look at any of it.




Haven't you heard? Progressives believe we can regulate ourselves out of any problem, whether it be low wages, global warming, inequality, poverty, hunger... The list goes on and on, and the more regulation fails to correct any of these problems, the more they call for more regulation. It makes perfect sense in the progressive world of unicorns and pixie dust




stfu you robot, we aren't talking about regulating the economy. we're (or at least i am) talking about regulating power companies that dump toxic sewage into the lakes and oceans...and whom pump immense carbon emissions into the atmosphere. i am talking about large corporations that already have guidelines that they aren't regularly following, so the regulations are already there, they just need more apparently, because if you set guidelines and they aren't followed, someone needs to do something about the people recklessly poisoning the planet for the sheer fuck of it's pointless to try and save it...yeah...we don't need to save it, it'll save itself...but i don't want to push it and push it, just for the fuck of it all, like some insane fucktarded people just like pollution for the sake of pollution is pollution and it make them money to not care about it.

you know, i am talking about sensible things, unlike your parrot self, whom has no original thought on anything. and i'm not a progressive, libtard.

if it were up to you, what, would you INCREASE carbon emissions?

no, seriously, answer the fucking question, parrot.

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