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OfflinePagliacci
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Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help
    #23164588 - 04/28/16 10:03 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I have been dealing with overly damp rye jars tek modification after tek modification. So I bought RRs videos and the only thing new was adding foil to the tops of the homemade tyvek/self seal lids. I thought this would be the solution to my problems. Btw I soaked for 24h, has a vigorous boil for 10min, and PC'ed at 15-18psi for 120min. This morning after coming out of the room temp PC, if I flip the jar, the whole cylinder of grain will just glide down. After shaking vigorously, the grains will tumble when inverting the jar but is more clumpy than in the video and even though there's no visible water pooling, the grain seems moist enough to where it's going to pool after a few days and that's before a 2cc injection. After just letting them sit for another 20-30min the grains won't tumble again and revert back to the whole cylinder hitting the lid.

For the love of all that is holy could someone please help me get the right moisture content? I didn't do the paper towel test but the grains did not stick to my hands while loading the jars. Do I need to just leave them in the colanders for more time? I shook them mercilessly to get the steam off and every few minutes repeated until there was no more steam. That whole time period was probably 25 minutes. I've contemplated hitting them with a hair dryer or spanning them out on a mesh screen but nobody else seems to need to do this with RR's tek.


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OfflinePerception7
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164625 - 04/28/16 10:16 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pagliacci said:
I have been dealing with overly damp rye jars tek modification after tek modification. So I bought RRs videos and the only thing new was adding foil to the tops of the homemade tyvek/self seal lids. I thought this would be the solution to my problems. Btw I soaked for 24h, has a vigorous boil for 10min, and PC'ed at 15-18psi for 120min. This morning after coming out of the room temp PC, if I flip the jar, the whole cylinder of grain will just glide down. After shaking vigorously, the grains will tumble when inverting the jar but is more clumpy than in the video and even though there's no visible water pooling, the grain seems moist enough to where it's going to pool after a few days and that's before a 2cc injection. After just letting them sit for another 20-30min the grains won't tumble again and revert back to the whole cylinder hitting the lid.

For the love of all that is holy could someone please help me get the right moisture content? I didn't do the paper towel test but the grains did not stick to my hands while loading the jars. Do I need to just leave them in the colanders for more time? I shook them mercilessly to get the steam off and every few minutes repeated until there was no more steam. That whole time period was probably 25 minutes. I've contemplated hitting them with a hair dryer or spanning them out on a mesh screen but nobody else seems to need to do this with RR's tek.




Hello there, I do this tek with polyfil lid and aluminum foil. I pressure cook at 15 PSI for 60 minutes only. Are you using 1 tablespoon of powered gypsum? Also you can use 1cc of spores from a syringe (or less) and get mycelium growing every time (unless of course you get contams or bacteria). Are you thoroughly washing the rye after you let it soak for 24 hours until the water is clean?


--------------------
:1up: How I prepare my monotubs :1up:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23066513


Edited by Perception7 (04/28/16 10:16 AM)

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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Perception7]
    #23164638 - 04/28/16 10:20 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I add 1 tsp of gypsum per cup of dry rye ie 5tsps. I add 10 cups of weak brewed coffee and 2.5gal hot water for the 24h soak. I wash the rye more excessively than the video e.g. 5-6+ times beforehand. Could the extra PSI and PC time contribute to the moisture?


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OfflinePerception7
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164653 - 04/28/16 10:25 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pagliacci said:
I add 1 tsp of gypsum per cup of dry rye ie 5tsps. I add 10 cups of weak brewed coffee and 2.5gal hot water for the 24h soak. I wash the rye more excessively than the video e.g. 5-6+ times beforehand. Could the extra PSI and PC time contribute to the moisture?




Roger adds 1 tablespoon of gympsum for 10 cups of dry rye grains. Also make sure your using organic rye grain. The coffee may be contributing to your issue but it may not be. Also your water for the soak can be room temperature, no reason for it to be hot. The PSI and PC time could be contributing as well, although in the video I do believe he cooks at 15 PSI for 90 minutes, I always found 60 to work every time.

How much water are you adding into the PC when you cook? Is water getting into your jars? Also I don't get the grains to a "rigorous boil" for 10 minutes, my pot of grains just have steam coming off with a low boil for 10 minutes with no cover on the pot. I would also clean your rye (strain it 3-5 times) after the 24 hour soak next time, not before.


--------------------
:1up: How I prepare my monotubs :1up:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23066513


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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Perception7]
    #23164693 - 04/28/16 10:39 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Idk where I read 1tsp per cup. Ok so I'll use .5tbsp of gypsum.

It's actually the same rye he uses in his video.

I figured the hot water soak kept a warmer temperature to favor endospore sprouting? If not necessary I could try room temperature + the hot coffee. I feel confident that the coffee is not the issue but I'm so fed up I don't know if I can be confident in anything tek-wise at the moment.

PC water level is between 1/3 and 1/2 of the jar level once ready to go.

I'll go lidless and simmer instead next time. I figured the rigorous boil would guarantee the grains to be as hot as possible for steam drying. If they fail the papertowl test, what should I do?

If I re-wash the rye after the soak and before PC, will I lose the benefit of the gypsum helping prevent clumping?


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OfflinePerception7
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164713 - 04/28/16 10:45 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pagliacci said:
Idk where I read 1tsp per cup. Ok so I'll use .5tbsp of gypsum.

It's actually the same rye he uses in his video.

I figured the hot water soak kept a warmer temperature to favor endospore sprouting? If not necessary I could try room temperature + the hot coffee. I feel confident that the coffee is not the issue but I'm so fed up I don't know if I can be confident in anything tek-wise at the moment.

PC water level is between 1/3 and 1/2 of the jar level once ready to go.

I'll go lidless and simmer instead next time. I figured the rigorous boil would guarantee the grains to be as hot as possible for steam drying. If they fail the papertowl test, what should I do?

If I re-wash the rye after the soak and before PC, will I lose the benefit of the gypsum helping prevent clumping?




I would let the coffee cool to room temp before adding to the rye/water soak. Your water content in the PC is too much IMO, I only add an inch and a half of water to the base of the PC after the jars are loaded. Your grains shouldn't fail the toilet paper test if the tek is done correctly (usually takes ~20-30 minutes after the boil before it passes the toilet paper test, although it largely depends on how fast your grain is cooled). As I said before, wash your grains after the soak, not before - and yes you will gain the benefits from the gypsum when washing post-soak.


--------------------
:1up: How I prepare my monotubs :1up:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23066513


Edited by Perception7 (04/28/16 10:46 AM)

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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Perception7]
    #23164714 - 04/28/16 10:46 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Do the toilet paper test so you can figure out if it is happening before or after you PC.

If you think it is happening before PCing, try drying on a screen with a fan under. The thinner you can spread the grain the better it will dry. Here is a pic of my strainer, unnecessary for what you're doing but just wanted to give you an idea (this one dries 50-100lbs of rye in about 1 minute).



If you think it is happening during PCing, I would look at your lid tek because it is likely that moisture is entering during the cycle. RR prep calls for synthetic filter discs which need to be purchased from a myco supplier such as a shroomery sponsor. When I make jars I do exactly like he does, putting the seal of the lid facing up (away from the glass) > filter disc (UNCUT) > jar ring. Doing it like this was his trick to perfect moisture because it escapes from inside the jar more freely than if you were to put the lid's seal on the glass!

For jars I think 2 hours sterilization is okay, unnecessary but not the issue.. I prefer 90min for jars and 2.5hrs for large bags. Definitely cut the coffee out of your prep, it hasn't really proved any benefit besides one jar pic RR posted a decade ago. You don't need to add gypsum either, but if you like it that is up to you. I never noticed gypsum to do anything myself.


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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Perception7]
    #23164776 - 04/28/16 11:05 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Perception7 said:

I would let the coffee cool to room temp before adding to the rye/water soak. Your water content in the PC is too much IMO, I only add an inch and a half of water to the base of the PC after the jars are loaded. Your grains shouldn't fail the toilet paper test if the tek is done correctly (usually takes ~20-30 minutes after the boil before it passes the toilet paper test, although it largely depends on how fast your grain is cooled). As I said before, wash your grains after the soak, not before - and yes you will gain the benefits from the gypsum when washing post-soak.




Alright, I will do all of the following tomorrow after this soak and pray to the gods old and new that this solves the issue.

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:

If you think it is happening during PCing, I would look at your lid tek because it is likely that moisture is entering during the cycle. RR prep calls for synthetic filter discs which need to be purchased from a myco supplier such as a shroomery sponsor. When I make jars I do exactly like he does, putting the seal of the lid facing up (away from the glass) > filter disc (UNCUT) > jar ring. Doing it like this was his trick to perfect moisture because it escapes from inside the jar more freely than if you were to put the lid's seal on the glass!




I've wondered the lid tek as well since I do use rubber side down. I'd be open to buying SFDs but wasn't sure how you inject through them? Until then I could glue (i use gasket sealer for this as well) the tyvek onto the other side and flip the lids upside down? I work in a flow box (HEPA filtered purifier that blows air out of a sealed bin with arm holes so that there's enough positive pressure build up) and plan to eventually just do G2Gs unless a problem arises where I need another injection batch.


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164811 - 04/28/16 11:20 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You would lift the lid to shoot spores... If you're serious about growing though you need to get into agar & step away from needles all together. I don't like the sound of your inoculation box either... Go with a true laminar flowhood or a simple SAB. It may be working fine now, but when you start opening lids for agar inoculations, G2Gs and plate work I garuntee you'll start having issues!

Anyhow thinking more on your grain prep issue - for it to clump so bad like you are saying, it is most likely coming from the grain being sticky, which shouldn't happen with organic rye because you're paying extra for clean grain. I don't even rinse mine... ever. Remove the lid from your pot when you have it boiling & maybe shorten your boiling time to 5 min instead of 10. I literally bring it to a boil then dump it. If you boil too long or hard you will burst grains & make glue. All you are trying to accomplish by heating it is to get the grain hot so when you strain it will steam and remove the moisture from the outside.

Next time try it without gypsum and coffee.

These are the main things I see causing your issue, not the lid tek.


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OfflinePerception7
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164856 - 04/28/16 11:37 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You can wash the grain pre-soak sorry I was remembering it wrong :lmafo:


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:1up: How I prepare my monotubs :1up:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23066513


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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #23164865 - 04/28/16 11:40 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:
You would lift the lid to shoot spores... If you're serious about growing though you need to get into agar & step away from needles all together. I don't like the sound of your inoculation box either... Go with a true laminar flowhood or a simple SAB. It may be working fine now, but when you start opening lids for agar inoculations, G2Gs and plate work I garuntee you'll start having issues!

Anyhow thinking more on your grain prep issue - for it to clump so bad like you are saying, it is most likely coming from the grain being sticky, which shouldn't happen with organic rye because you're paying extra for clean grain. I don't even rinse mine... ever. Remove the lid from your pot when you have it boiling & maybe shorten your boiling time to 5 min instead of 10. I literally bring it to a boil then dump it. If you boil too long or hard you will burst grains & make glue. All you are trying to accomplish by heating it is to get the grain hot so when you strain it will steam and remove the moisture from the outside.

Next time try it without gypsum and coffee.

These are the main things I see causing your issue, not the lid tek.




What do you define as boiling? Steam rising, small bubbles, or big bubbles?

I'd like to think my flow box will work because i put so much time into it ha but I am aware that if I start getting contams it will have to go. I originally wanted to build a true flow hood but didnt realize the cost of everything. I had trouble finding a fan with a typical outlet power supply and the HEPA filter was expensive. SAB made me go mad as the gloves were slippery, I couldn't see well, and the lack of elbow room was just stressful, but I still have it. I've done a G2G in my flow box and the jars don't seem to be contaminated but they've stalled due to moisture or mico piss so I can't say for sure at the moment. Until I get grain prep down I need to just slow down with the ambitions. I still have a constructed indoor GH that's yet to be used since my prior experience was with monos and WBS but I prefer working with rye despite failing to get the right moisture content. I'm going to flip lids, paper towel test, less PC water, haven't decided on gypsum/coffee :|, pray to the old gods and the new, and less boiling time once you define boiling. Sigh

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:

You can wash the grain pre-soak sorry I was remembering it wrong :lmafo:




Were you getting your WBS and Rye teks mixed up? haha


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OfflineNewZooReview
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23164905 - 04/28/16 11:53 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Pagliacci said:
I have been dealing with overly damp rye jars tek modification after tek modification. So I bought RRs videos and the only thing new was adding foil to the tops of the homemade tyvek/self seal lids. I thought this would be the solution to my problems. Btw I soaked for 24h, has a vigorous boil for 10min, and PC'ed at 15-18psi for 120min. This morning after coming out of the room temp PC, if I flip the jar, the whole cylinder of grain will just glide down. After shaking vigorously, the grains will tumble when inverting the jar but is more clumpy than in the video and even though there's no visible water pooling, the grain seems moist enough to where it's going to pool after a few days and that's before a 2cc injection. After just letting them sit for another 20-30min the grains won't tumble again and revert back to the whole cylinder hitting the lid.

For the love of all that is holy could someone please help me get the right moisture content? I didn't do the paper towel test but the grains did not stick to my hands while loading the jars. Do I need to just leave them in the colanders for more time? I shook them mercilessly to get the steam off and every few minutes repeated until there was no more steam. That whole time period was probably 25 minutes. I've contemplated hitting them with a hair dryer or spanning them out on a mesh screen but nobody else seems to need to do this with RR's tek.





OP, After the boil, I shake well for about 10 min then shake another few minutes every half-hour for a total of at least 2 hours before loading the jars. You want the steam out and more. Letting it dry for a few hours does the trick for me. I use coffee and gypsum so I don't think those are your issues.


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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: NewZooReview]
    #23164925 - 04/28/16 12:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NewZooReview said:


OP, After the boil, I shake well for about 10 min then shake another few minutes every half-hour for a total of at least 2 hours before loading the jars. You want the steam out and more. Letting it dry for a few hours does the trick for me. I use coffee and gypsum so I don't think those are your issues.




I can do that as well! They say with science protocols to only change one protocol variable at a time, but sometimes drastic measures are called for :shrug:


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23165411 - 04/28/16 02:31 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NewZooReview said:
I use coffee and gypsum so I don't think those are your issues.



You may use them with success but OP is using them without.. The reason I say drop them is because taking things to the bare minimum will help him figure out where he's having trouble.


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OfflineNewZooReview
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #23168028 - 04/29/16 05:44 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I am all for science, gents. By all means. BUT if your problem is too wet grains then logically the more likely issue is drying time not additives. Want to drop the additives, cool. But extend your dry time too. Maybe do some jars with your 20min shake and some with a 2 hour dry?

~~~~
PS. I am an engineer by profession not a scientist. I guess that revealed my biases in this post. :grin: I'd rather solve the problem today than publish a paper about what the problem isn't.


--------------------

Happiness is a rack of clean jars.

Edited by NewZooReview (04/29/16 05:47 AM)

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OfflinePagliacci
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: NewZooReview]
    #23172443 - 04/30/16 11:25 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Update for anyone that reads this in the future, I think the issue was not drying the grain enough prior to PC or glue from busted kernels, though I did change all of the above things up except I still included gypsum and coffee. I now have jars that look exactly like the RR video and am excited to use them. Thanks for everyone's help


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Offlinemushroomnoob1981
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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23172540 - 04/30/16 12:02 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I use RR's rye tek and never have had this problem. 

  • Everyone covers the lids with aluminum foil prior to putting in the PC


  • Your problem is not that you're putting aluminum foil on the jars, it's that you are loading wet grains.


What I do/did to get dry grains =



  • while the mixture is still boiling, pour the mixture into the colanders (fill each on about 1/2 to 2/3 full of rye).


  • For 20 minutes, every 5 minutes toss the rye like a chef would toss a salad.  The point is to get the grains on the bottom exposed to the air so the water can leave by evaporation. 


  • Let it sit for 15 min then toss again. (do this 2x)


  • finally give the grains an additional 20-30 minutes to just sit there.  You should have dry grains by now. 

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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: Pagliacci]
    #23199484 - 05/07/16 04:19 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

"Excess pressure" is probably not the reason for the presence of excess moisture following sterilization. An increase in pressure or PSI in your PC will necessarily lead to an increase in temperature or kinetic energy, which is then transferred to liquid water molecules & provides them the energy to vaporize or become a gas (steam).

You may have better results if you decrease the amount of water initially used by say ~10% (mass).
One thing I've found helpful in reducing water content post-sterilization is to place the jars in an oven at ~250 F for ~30 min, or whatever you experimentally find fit. The "dry-heat" will dehydrate the rye grains faster than the "wet-heat" obtained via PC steaming, and you can also manage the extent to which this occurs simply by visual monitoring & shaking/rotating the jars.

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Re: Rye still wet after following RR video. Please help [Re: nickneff50]
    #23199602 - 05/07/16 05:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

It would be better to just get it right from the start.

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