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 Viaggio
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 Re: Being a productive member of society:  [Re: MrGrib]
#2319065 - 02/09/04 06:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm generally familiar with the idea of Utopia, but I fail to see it ever becoming a reality. I very much doubt the human species is capable.
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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MrGrib
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 Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319132 - 02/09/04 06:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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why the blanket statements with nothing to back it up? anyway, we're not asking the human species to get involved, just those who give a damn. But if you ask me, you're right, wtih the current state of civilization and society it will be an uphill battle to get where we wanna be, and in this case it's best to start over with a clean slate.
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Viaggio
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: MrGrib]
#2319144 - 02/09/04 07:01 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term "blanket statement." What should I back up...the current (general) success of America's existing society?
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319186 - 02/09/04 07:09 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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when you make a statement like
Quote:
viaggio said:
I fail to see it ever becoming a reality. I very much doubt the human species is capable.
unless you are all-knowing or God himself, you are required to substantiate your accusations. Otherwise you have no credibility as a bullshitter.
Quote:
viaggio said:
the current (general) success of America's existing society?
I believe, and think that many will agree, that the idea of success is relative. By definition, success is only reached when a goal or set of goals has been attained. So clearly, with a plethora of opposing interests and goals, success and failure will always necessarily co-exist in society's and civilization's current state.
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Viaggio
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: MrGrib]
#2319270 - 02/09/04 07:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never claimed to know anything. In fact, I purposely used words like "doubt" and "general."
Also, I hope you don't perceive my posts as hostile (or bullshit) simply because I disagree. I carefully try to blend an amount of respect when I question someone's post...I expect the same.
As far as substantiating my accusations...what do you mean?
(Not a definition, but what are you specifically asking)
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319302 - 02/09/04 07:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Utopia? We're hardly dreaming of such a thing. Human societies have existed for tens of thousands of years with the precise values we are aspiring too. To say humans are incapable of treating one another and the planet with complete respect is not only unimaginitive but it's misinformed. I suggest taking a look at anthropology. There are countless examples of egalitarian tribal groups that respect not only one another but nature, to the fullest degree. These are successful, sustainable cultures that arose naturally. If that doesn't inspire you, realize that oil is limited and once it's gone civilization is crashing anyways. Why not figure out healthy and sustainable ways to live, and get over our addiction of being civilized? I recommend these sources: www.derrickjensen.org there are a number of essays posted. www.eco-action.org http://www.inthewake.netfirms.com/ www.primitivism.com http://www.greenanarchy.org/ http://www.greenanarchist.org/ http://www.ishmael.com/index1.cfm http://www.theaword.net/ http://www.anarchymag.org/
I think that is enough links for this evening. Enjoy!
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319352 - 02/09/04 07:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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vag, I don't at all perceive your posts as hostile. And the only reason I perceive them as bullshit is because of your tendency to be vague and general. When you make such an unsound argument, not only does it convey to me that you don't really believe what you are saying, but it makes it hard for the rest of us to produce a counter-argument.  So be more specific (for example, with historical examples, hypothetical scenarios, or simply more concrete thoughts of YOUR OWN)--there's nothing extraordinary about "but I fail to see it ever becoming a reality. I very much doubt the human species is capable.", a cliche with which we're all too familiar and are (me personally) hardly interested in hearing if stated alone.
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2319398 - 02/09/04 07:55 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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see, now this is what I'm talking about. And I love cultural anthropology because it allows us to see that even today, people can live in social structures that are in harmony with nature. (Unfortunately, there are OTHER people in the world who subscribe to globalization in a bad way and try to shamelessly exploit these people and the resources they protect for their own greedy interests.)
Personally, I don't see how it cannot be clear to someone that a civilization/society that purposely over-exploits its own limited natural environment to the conscious detriment of its own species, is devolving rather than adapting.
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Viaggio
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2319406 - 02/09/04 07:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think humans are capable of treating one another and the planet with complete respect...I honestly can't imagine it.
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319439 - 02/09/04 08:08 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Viaggio, I offered you some resources which would offer you some insight into being able to imagine it. Like I said, it has existed and it currently exists in small, threatened pockets. To say you cannot imagine it is not a substantial argument. All it demonstrates is your unwillingness to do the research, and entertain beautiful notions. I'm not meaning to attack you, but I would appreciate if you would actually try and dissect my commentary for indadequacies rather than simply state you can't see it, repeatedly.
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319452 - 02/09/04 08:10 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe you can't imagine it because you're one who doesn't feel that way, and that's fine. But don't over-generalize "humans" just because you don't think you're capable of it.
I am human, and even if I am alone in believing it, I would prefer to live in harmony with my environment. But from talking to other people, I know that I am not alone, so apparently there are humans who are capable of living in harmony with each other and with nature. As with anything, however, things get out of harmony sometimes, but the common idea between these people is the intent and goal to maintain a harmony.
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Viaggio
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2319481 - 02/09/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ugh...my statement was not an argument, NiamhNyx. I was agreeing with something you said. I actually plan to check those links when I feel motivated enough. Though, I admit it's a tad intimidating...so many links...seems like an aggressive act.
it currently exists in small, threatened pockets
I could believe that happening, but the key word is small. Do you think it's possible on a mass scale?
I apologize for not being specific. I speak mostly from what I've experienced and observed from human nature. Our species seems to react more productively (as observed with capitalism) with competition.
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319512 - 02/09/04 08:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is necessary for it to happen. There are many moments in which I feel we won't survive as a species. I've come to a point where I hesitantly accept that possibility but I feel it is my work to buffer the impact our culture has as much as possible, and save what may be saved. I believe that it is not only possible for humans to exist in a cooperative and mutually supportive way, in tune with the earth, but the way we are instinctually inclined to be. I must remain optimistic that we will be capable of saving what remains and transitioning to a sustainable culture, no matter how rocky it is now, and will be during transition. I apologize for all the links, I know it's intimidating when you don't know where to begin. Try this essay first. http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319521 - 02/09/04 08:30 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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I said this earlier: "Personally, I don't see how it cannot be clear to someone that a civilization/society that purposely over-exploits its own limited natural environment to the conscious detriment of its own species, is devolving rather than adapting."
I would like you to comment on this, and keeping it in mind, give your personal response to the impact on our natural environment resulting from your "productivity" inspired by capitalism.
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Grav
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2319555 - 02/09/04 08:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Will your free societies also be 'free' from the government's protection?
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Grav]
#2319562 - 02/09/04 08:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes. Protection from what? Threats manufactured by civilization itself? Are we so afraid of living that we cannot protect our own communities? Civilized government does more damage to communities than good. It's poor consolation to a wage slave that they can be guaranteed starvation pay or "minimum wage" when many of us would sooner live self-sustainably and not have to subscibe to this joke of a money-system. The only thing organized governments protect us from are other organized governments and the hardest of the repercussions of being governed in the first place.
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Grav]
#2319564 - 02/09/04 08:48 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Protection from what? Please become sufficiently informed before you re-post.
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MrGrib
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2319568 - 02/09/04 08:50 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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the synchrony is uncanny.
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Viaggio
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: MrGrib]
#2319600 - 02/09/04 09:02 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Firstly, I'm having trouble understanding what the topic is...is it human nature and it's affect on gov't/economic structure? Is it about Earth issues such as depleting natural resources and pollution?
I've read the essay (glad it was short) and here are my thoughts, my interpretation...
More people equals more consumption:
Natural resources are limited, and there is a growing concern...no surprise there. Most people are aware of it. The human population might be too great a number, so the demand to sustain it might be too great. To fall back into a period similar to the stone age would not sustain our current population. Although, I have a strong feeling that we will eventually adapt to depleting resources. Heck, we've already begun with hybrid engines (and the like). Eventually, our primary fuel source will most likely be hydrogen (but not likely until it's needed). I could go on with more tangents (like oil companies and such) but I figure it isn't necessary.
I don't see society devolving. It's certainly spreading and using, but at the same time, it's developing an adapting (i.e. hybrid engines and the like).
Maybe I'm not answering the right questions?
ALSO: In response to the attacks on civilized gov'ts...do you not see the benefits of it?
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Being a productive member of society: [Re: Viaggio]
#2319646 - 02/09/04 09:15 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nope. I don't see any real or sustainable benefit to civilization whatsoever. I used to, but I thoroughly stripped myself of what I now consider delusions. I currently enjoy the odd creature comfort such as electrical heating and hot showers but I realize these conveniences aren't worth the utter genocide and ecocide required to obtain them.
You are correct that stone age living, sustainable living, is not possible with our current population base. The thing is, due to the impending oil crash there will likely be a rather harsh period that I'll gracelessly call the "die- off." It's not pretty and I'd really prefer to transition gracefully and painlessly but unfortunately due to our own idiocy that is unlikely to occur. Here is another goodie http://eces.org/articles/000148.php This is by Richard Heinberg, a very talented author who wrote "The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies."
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