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OfflineDeadPhan
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Who here doesnt soak with rye grain prep and can sware by it?
    #23188948 - 05/04/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Ive always done a 14 to 24 hour soak, boil, and steam dry method for my grains.  I really just like working with rye btw. Stubborn and I have the most success with so my question really pertains to that. Ive got it down to a science and my grains come out perfect and moisture content and everything. However, due to certain circumstances, itd be so much better if I could skip those steps. Considering how much time I would save, not to mention propane thats required for the boil. I dont have the space I used to in my current situation. I can technically accomplish it but I am hoping.to maybe give the other method a whirl. The one where you just rinse and then throw grains in the jar and x amount of water, no soak prior, and just get straight to pressure cooking them. Ive always been wary as ive heard different accounts of them either coming out too dry or too wet. Ive hear others say it works fine as well. I have an all american 930 PC, so if the quality of a PC plays a part, I got that covered.

Im just wondering if any og you have tried it. If you still do. Why you might not dp it that why and for thise that do if its basically cut and dry and you never had any issues. Id like to go into it with confidence as it would just be so much less time consuming, labor intensive, and alot cheaper. Thanks for any and all advice or testaments about as much.


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Big Gulps!  Alright!  Well,  See ya later!
And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!

Edited by DeadPhan (05/04/16 03:14 PM)

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Invisiblejimmyjams
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #23188981 - 05/04/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Aside from moisture content you may end up bacterial contam issues. The soak allows bacterial endospores to germinate making them susceptible to pressure cooking.

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: jimmyjams]
    #23189008 - 05/04/16 03:22 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

You might end up with clumped grains with that method, as well as crusty and dry grains on top and overly wet grains on the bottom. When I tried it with millet I ended up with an inch thick clump the shape of the bottom of my jars. I never used it again. Rye has a thicker hull so it might not be as bad but I have never used rye. I wouldn't want to try it with oats neither though.

I use a no soak, straight boil method with my oats and it takes about 25-30 mins to get them just right so it's not much time and energy. Soaking them beforehand will need more time but you will use less gas to get them hydrated. The soak might very well be counter productive when it comes to endospores. After a certain amount of time the endospores would have already germinated and more endospores will be in your grains than when you started. I think anywhere from 2-12 hours max is recommended but I am not entirely sure.

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InvisibleSnazz
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23189079 - 05/04/16 03:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I think endospores are triggered by inhospitable conditions.  To lay in wait for better environment.  (dry/freezing etc)


Bacteria should be in replication mode with warm nutritious conditions.


Haven't done a no-soak although a few Teks are around w/ no-soak

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OfflineDeadPhan
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: Snazz]
    #23189094 - 05/04/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Ive heard people sware by it. Nervous to try as it's expensive to lose a 14 jar batch of.rye but got damn I wana figure it out.


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Big Gulps!  Alright!  Well,  See ya later!
And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #23189121 - 05/04/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Well with that method you don't have to risk 14 jars, you can just as easily make a couple instead. I would stick to a soak and simmer or a straight boil tek though for a more even product.

BTW, if you are buying expensive rye just because it was reccomended, you should try other grains. There are plenty of good grains out there that are just as good as rye. Although we don't get rye in my country I imagine that oats is pretty similiar in prep due to being roughly the same size and consistency. Here I buy a sack of 25kg oats for 11 euro and it lasts a shitload of batches. Oats is also awesome because you don't have to dry it after the prep, just boil it till hydration, strain to remove the bulk of water and load in jars. Oats don't stick with that method even if you don't use gypsum. Rye may very well be the same since it's similiar.

Don't limit yourself to expensive shit just because that's the only one you have tried, you might very well like another grain better which might turn out to be significantly cheaper.

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: Snazz]
    #23189145 - 05/04/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Rye is a grain that you can just make a recipe by weight and get a decent result at the end, mainly because its so hard, it doesn't let loose its starch very easily. Being hard, is one of the reasons why it takes longer than other grains to hydrate.

Weigh out the grains, dry. Subtract the amount of moisture all ready in them from that weight (usually 11-12%) then divide that number by .58 (58%) then take the resulting number and multiply by .42 (42%), take that number and subtract from it the amount of water already there, final number is the amount to add if aiming for 42%. If aiming for say 45% then instead of dividing by 58% you'd divide by .55 (55%) and then multiply by .45 (45%), get it? (45+55=100)

You can use that to make a recipe per quart jar, so you'll no how much grains to add by weight and how much water as well, per quart jar.

You can also do this with other straight grains, doesn't work well with mixed grains. It works for millet but you might get some clumping. I tried 42% water for millet and I liked the results even though there was some clumps it wasn't much. Others seem to have been able to add water to millet, pc, and not get clumps, I wonder what they did different. This will result poorly with wheat, I would think, I haven't tried it but based upon what I think I know about wheat. 42%-43% is a good range for most straight grains I think. Depending on the grain you could go higher but definitely don't go lower.

I think hot water bath/soak is the best way to prep grains but if I had to just add water to grain and pc, Rye would be my top choice to compliment.
I also think this saves time and labor, even though I think hot water bath is better, they still colonize.
There is also evidence that grains hydrated before loading sterilize better. You might wonna adjust your PC cycle to compensate.

The best grain prep I know of...
This method was designed for birdseed but it can work for Rye. Its like cooking food. You have to know when its done soaking from experience, usually just by looking at it. I just stick a pot inside my PC, heat it up until steaming hot and then steep the grains for an hour or more, oversoaking doesn't seem to hurt. Then I load into a 5 gallon bucket strainer, sit that bucket in another bucket and sit a box fan on top, then after another hour, pour the grains  into a large wash tub and sit the box fan on that until its as dry as I want it.
Spitballjedi's spin on rye
You can adhere to some strict instructions here but bottom line is the grains will be done soaking when they are done. If you aren't replicating water temps, and containers, etc, then you may have to add or take away time. Spitball was wise enough to provide his water temp at time of soak. I just get the water "steaming hot" and aim to oversoak.

From start of soak, straight to rinse, then to drying, can take about 3 hours till final product, for me. I'm sure satisfactory results are had in less, I just like mine a certain dryness not to mention I oversoak.


Even more importantly for rye, You are likely not going to hit max saturation just by soaking. After soaking in hot water and rinse, 30-60min draining will have them likely moist on the outside but there is still room, for the 1-5% additional water you are keeping by not letting them get dry to the touch. Long story short you could potentially have finished rye within 1.45 hours with hot water bath, not counting the time it takes to get the water hot. If you try this out I advised to get the water as hot as possible before adding the rye. Using a lid or seal-able pot, like a PC, is also apart of the method. The pot that comes with and fits inside your AA is best, I think. Simmering is an option for fast grain prep. Its just not my style.


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:three:

Edited by camplo (05/04/16 08:03 PM)

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OfflineDeadPhan
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: camplo]
    #23189546 - 05/04/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Right on. Thats a bit too much math for me to wrapy head around. Ill likely just do the old fashioned method this time around. Just sometimes I do multiple batches in a day like 42 jars or more and its alot of work doing soak boil steam prep. Just trying.to save some time.


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Big Gulps!  Alright!  Well,  See ya later!
And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!

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Invisibleazur
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #23189562 - 05/04/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I have a few different methods of preparing spawn, depending on the grain type and if it's for masters or transfers.
With all of those methods though, I soak the grain for 18-24 hours.
A lot of people prep without a soak and they do great. I soak because I've had grain with high bacterial endospore counts before, and I feel a soak is required to germinate them so they may be killed with sterilization.


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Offlinecamplo
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Who here doesnt soak with grain prep and can sware by it? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #23189591 - 05/04/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DeadPhan said:
Right on. Thats a bit too much math for me to wrapy head around. Ill likely just do the old fashioned method this time around. Just sometimes I do multiple batches in a day like 42 jars or more and its alot of work doing soak boil steam prep. Just trying.to save some time.




The math isn't hard... Rule of thumb, grains expands ~1.5 times its dry size. So if you are filling your jars to 700ml Then ~ 466ml dry grains per jar. So lets error on the small side and say 450ml. First we need to figure out how much that weighs. I am not at home atm so I can't do the numbers for you. There are some recipes on the board the will give you a recipe for a quart jar of grain by ml. As in they will say add Xml of grain to Yml of water. Search for it.


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:three:

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