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Offlinenisdizt
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Wbs too dense for full colonization
    #23167595 - 04/29/16 01:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

After soaking, simmering and pressure cooking my wild bird seed, the seeds expand and get so dense that they can't be shaken up inside the jar at all. They turn into a couscous-like consistency. I've done a few grain transfers into these jars and the mycelium grows nicely, but it starts sprouting mushrooms inside the jar before it even colonizes half the amount. Any tips on how to break up the seed? I tend to soak for a day, simmer for 40 min, PC for 90 min. Where am I going wrong?


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: nisdizt]
    #23167604 - 04/29/16 01:12 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

If you're shaking them at 100% colonization and the jars are less than 3/4 full then they're likely contaminated.  They shouldn't be that hard to break up.  Without pics nobody can say for sure though..


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OfflineHowToGrow
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: Inocuole]
    #23167639 - 04/29/16 01:29 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Imo, went you went wrong right about when you got WBS :wink:
I've had this same problem often with WBS, even filling the jars at 2/3 full. If I have a very malignant/benign(however you want to look at it) isolated culture, and it colonizes and consolidates within 10 days or so, it was always a pain in the ass to try and break it up with WBS. I would end up just breaking it up with my hands in the jar as I was mixing it in with my sub.

Switching to Rye berries has had much better results and is always super simple to break up, even with my best isolated cultures. I am able to break it up to where not a single grain is touching another. I usually do this with my palm. I don't like using tape rolls or bike tires or anything else.. I've broken too many jars. The palm seems to be a right balance of opposing force and cushioning for breaking up jars. But in that sense, if you are breaking jars constantly, the palm might not be such a great idea lol. Excessive strength, glass and skin don't make for a good combo. Have to find that right balance of force.

Good luck


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Edited by HowToGrow (04/29/16 01:52 AM)

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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: HowToGrow]
    #23167751 - 04/29/16 02:36 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HowToGrow said:
Imo, went you went wrong right about when you got WBS :wink:
I've had this same problem often with WBS, even filling the jars at 2/3 full. If I have a very malignant/benign(however you want to look at it) isolated culture, and it colonizes and consolidates within 10 days or so, it was always a pain in the ass to try and break it up with WBS. I would end up just breaking it up with my hands in the jar as I was mixing it in with my sub.

Switching to Rye berries has had much better results and is always super simple to break up, even with my best isolated cultures. I am able to break it up to where not a single grain is touching another. I usually do this with my palm. I don't like using tape rolls or bike tires or anything else.. I've broken too many jars. The palm seems to be a right balance of opposing force and cushioning for breaking up jars. But in that sense, if you are breaking jars constantly, the palm might not be such a great idea lol. Excessive strength, glass and skin don't make for a good combo. Have to find that right balance of force.

Good luck





if they werent contammed then you need to work on your WBS prep.  they should break up rather easily with or without myc colonized on them

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23167754 - 04/29/16 02:37 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

twistedty said:
if they werent contammed then you need to work on your WBS prep.  they should break up rather easily with or without myc colonized on them



:whathesaid:

It's not WBS' fault.  It works fine when it's prepped right and there's no bacteria.


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OfflineHowToGrow
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: Inocuole]
    #23167795 - 04/29/16 02:56 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I guess, but from the hundreds upon hundreds of jars of WBS I've done compared to hundreds upon hundreds of jars of ORB, the prep process is a lot easier and the overall colonizing and fruiting has also performed a lot better. Preparing conventional WBS is a pain in my opinion. It may work fine when its prepd right, but imo rye is always easier to work with.


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Edited by HowToGrow (04/29/16 02:57 AM)

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Offlinenisdizt
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: HowToGrow]
    #23168647 - 04/29/16 09:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The grains are all sticky the moment I take them out of the pressure cooker, so I doubt it's contamination. Shaking them won't break them apart. I could break them apart with my hand, but that would defeat the purpose of the PC. There's something I need to change about the way I prep them. For those of you who have had success, any tips on cook times? Also, remove the sunflower seeds or no?


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: nisdizt]
    #23168715 - 04/29/16 10:13 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

find another wbs prep that doesnt involve simmering.

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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: nisdizt]
    #23168750 - 04/29/16 10:30 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nisdizt said:
The grains are all sticky the moment I take them out of the pressure cooker, so I doubt it's contamination. Shaking them won't break them apart. I could break them apart with my hand, but that would defeat the purpose of the PC. There's something I need to change about the way I prep them. For those of you who have had success, any tips on cook times? Also, remove the sunflower seeds or no?




what brand are you using.

if it has corn in it that could be your problem.

i soak for 12-18 hours.

bring it to a boil then steam dry.

i would reccomend penningtong classic


dont simmer just bring to a nice boil then take it off the heat

Edited by twistedty (04/29/16 10:30 AM)

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23168808 - 04/29/16 10:48 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I find simmering for too long makes them hella sticky. Lots don't even simmer these days. Try soaking and loading as is. Rinse is optional. Wbs is such a small grain, it hydrates hella easy. Cooking til some crack seems like a bit of an overload


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InvisibleSnazz
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23168832 - 04/29/16 10:58 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I would play around with your prep.  WBS is cheap.  Do a few test jars:

1. Long soak, no simmer.
2. Simmer, rinse, dry
3. Soak, rinse, toss w/verm

Sounds like you have overcooked seeds and starch issues.  Bacteria loves that too for two reasons.  Lots of surface food + very low oxygen. Anaerobic vs aerobic.

Do you whack the jars while hot to fluff it up / distribute moisture? Fluffy is your friend.

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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: Snazz]
    #23169314 - 04/29/16 01:46 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

A 40 minute simmer is wayyyyy to long.    Bring to a boil and steam dry.

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23169587 - 04/29/16 03:25 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

2 things. When prepping grain in a fashion that tends to fully hydrate them you have to get them dry/dryish on the outside before pressure cooking. If you are using hot water in your grain prep, starch can be cooked out of the grains, making them starchy on the outsides, thus, for optimal results you would have to rinse them to remove the extruded starch from the outsides of the grain before drying and loading. This need of removal of starch is exacerbated with wheat...trust me.

"Take the lid off of the pot and pour off any seeds or anything else floating at the top of the water into the strainer. Dump these floaters into the trash. Now pour out the remaining seeds into the strainer and rinse them until the water coming out of the bottom is clear."
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8508523#8508523

Rye is on the other side of the scale in comparison to wheat. Its harder, so less starch gets released in prep, its also takes longer to hydrate for the same reason. Millet seems to be in the middle to where you won't have super sticky grains if not rinsed but instead the extruded starch bunches up while being cooked and produces clumps once grains have cooled.

If you are using WBS and follow Foomans tek to the T you would be happy with the results, the basics of this style of prep is pretty much the best grain prep technique that I know of.

I adjusted the tek to suit my needs. I use a mix of rye/millet sometimes with the addition of wheat. I get the water steaming hot, and soak until the hardest grain (rye) is fully hydrated. The use of steaming hot water versus hard boiling water results in no bursted grains and compliments oversoaking to no ill effect. Notice in Foomans tek you don't focus on trying to keep the grains hot and evaporating off steam when pouring off soak water. This is because millet can get too dry this way. So make sure to wait till the water has cooled before pouring off, or just like in the tek, rinse right away before drying.

:twocents:


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Edited by camplo (04/29/16 03:40 PM)

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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: camplo]
    #23169634 - 04/29/16 03:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

keep the floaters. 


Sunflower seeds contain lignin and other lipids and oils that are beneficial to the growth of mycelium.  Although not as meaty as the wheat and milo grain, millet is still an added source of nutrition for mushroom mycelium.

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OfflineTeethAndSpareRibs
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23170007 - 04/29/16 05:36 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

If it was like a rubbery puck up top and for example the seeds are visible with moisture at the bottom and even if you can break them up they recolonize as a rubbery puck up top with moisture and some birdseed at the bottom...

It's all mold and bacteria.  I had exactly the issue you are describing.  It was from the grains being way too moist and over pressure cooked.

***I had tried WBS (always did rye berry before that).  While many people are good with WBS, I just find prepping and growing with rye easier (probably because I am just more familiar with it).  Not an expert by any means here though.

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OfflineTeethAndSpareRibs
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: TeethAndSpareRibs]
    #23170013 - 04/29/16 05:39 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

If they look anything like these do and are freaking impossible to break up.  Those jars are toast.  These are rye and wbs jars a screwed up after a 10 year break from this hobby. 


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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: TeethAndSpareRibs]
    #23170019 - 04/29/16 05:42 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TeethAndSpareRibs said:
If they look anything like these do and are freaking impossible to break up.  Those jars are toast.  These are rye and wbs jars a screwed up after a 10 year break from this hobby. 






lol!

shake those jars a week at least before those pics were taken.

:facepalm:

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OfflineTeethAndSpareRibs
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Re: Wbs too dense for full colonization [Re: twistedty]
    #23170059 - 04/29/16 05:55 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Those jars were totally fucked a long time ago.  There was no shaking that would fix them.  They were too wet from the start and that was all mold and bacteria.  I'm well past that nonsense now though lol.

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