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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
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Temp and Humidity
    #23163623 - 04/28/16 12:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

So im noticing that my SG FC will hold high RH ( 94-100 %) When the lid is off and the temp is low ( 67 degrees ) , but when i put the lid on, the temp gets to 71 max and the RH drops to 80%.

Im using an aquarium heater in a tray of water for heating.

My question here is what is ideal Temp and RH and how can i achieve a balance if the temp that holds 90-100 % RH is to low ?


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23163635 - 04/28/16 12:16 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)












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OfflineGreenRabbit
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23163686 - 04/28/16 12:40 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
Im using an aquarium heater in a tray of water for heating.





Get rid of it and that jar of water in there.
Mist it a few times a day.

It'll do the rest for you.

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23163727 - 04/28/16 01:05 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Ok thanks for the advice. But wont it matter that the temp is a little low ? It will be below 68F what is to cold for fruit production ?


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OfflineGreenRabbit
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23163779 - 04/28/16 01:46 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You can't heat the whole room?

The SGFC needs to create the air current, so having a bowl of hot water above the perlite won't do much more than mix around the air at the top level.
Could be why you're reading a humidity drop when the lid is on. It isn't less humid, but mixing more.

Air needs to flow through the perlite, so if there is a warm pocket of air above cold wet perlite, there isn't much of a reason for air to flow through it.

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23163964 - 04/28/16 04:58 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
You can't heat the whole room?

The SGFC needs to create the air current, so having a bowl of hot water above the perlite won't do much more than mix around the air at the top level.
Could be why you're reading a humidity drop when the lid is on. It isn't less humid, but mixing more.

Air needs to flow through the perlite, so if there is a warm pocket of air above cold wet perlite, there isn't much of a reason for air to flow through it.



not arguing just trying to understand. But wouldnt having warmer air above the perlite ( in the case of a heat source other than the substrate ) draw the cooler air from the perlite upward ?

Also would pointing a space heater toward the terrarium work? I cant heat the entire room except with the use of a space heater, and  I dont know how well that would work. Im just finding it difficult to bring the FC up to temp while keeping the RH at the right % .

Thanks for your feed back you seem to be the only who whos trying to help me out and I appreciate it.


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164004 - 04/28/16 05:29 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I dont think air is getting through my perlite properly. it was pretty fine and busted alot from the store. so i think its compacted and not loose enough. im guna fluff it up.


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OfflineGreenRabbit
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164017 - 04/28/16 05:46 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The cooler air is more dense, so why would it rise?

Fluffing the perlite will help.

Is this space heater a dish radiator type?
That could work if aimed at the perlite.

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23164028 - 04/28/16 05:54 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
The cooler air is more dense, so why would it rise?

Fluffing the perlite will help.

Is this space heater a dish radiator type?
That could work if aimed at the perlite.



i dont even know anymore im so confused lol . Cant get my head around this pressure/Rh/temperature thing.


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164032 - 04/28/16 05:55 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I assume the more dense air (cooler) would rise because its being drawn toward the warmer air ( less dense) to create an equilibrium. But like I said im beyond confusion.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164056 - 04/28/16 06:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Warm air rises, thus pulling the cooler air up thru the holes in the bottom.

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: PussyFart]
    #23164108 - 04/28/16 06:33 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Warm air rises, thus pulling the cooler air up thru the holes in the bottom.



so the moist perlite is cooler than the ambient air tempeture above the perlite? where does the heat come from if there is no heat source. Wouldnt have a aqarium heater in a dish of water sitting on the perlite create more warm air to rise out of the FC drawing more cool air from the bottom ?

With out a heat source in there my temp is like 18C , which from what i read is to cold for fruiting /?


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164121 - 04/28/16 06:38 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

With the light on , specs seem to be much better. its sitting at 90% RH and 21C.

But i think temp is only at 21C because i had the space heater on it breifly and i beleive it will drop to around 18C again


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OfflineGreenRabbit
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164185 - 04/28/16 07:12 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Warm air rises, thus pulling the cooler air up thru the holes in the bottom.




Nah that's backwards. An SGFC has too many holes to demand air be drawn through cold wet perlite.
If the air above is heated, it will rise on its own, and I would expect this to draw air in through the lowest side holes above the perlite.

The perlite should be evaporating water, which increases the humidity, and lowers the density causing it to rise. This rise pushes the rest of the air out.

Monotubs work on the same principles but in reverse. The air in the tub becomes humid and leaves out the top holes drawing air in through the bottom.
Since an SGFC has so many holes, air leaving through the top doesn't mean air has to enter through the bottom.
Air coming up from the bottom does mean that air has to leave out the top though.

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23164373 - 04/28/16 08:47 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
Quote:

PussyFart said:
Warm air rises, thus pulling the cooler air up thru the holes in the bottom.



so the moist perlite is cooler than the ambient air tempeture above the perlite?



In most cases yes, but the air that gets pulled up is from outside the chamber, not just in the perlite.

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
where does the heat come from if there is no heat source.



The cakes.

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
Wouldnt have a aqarium heater in a dish of water sitting on the perlite create more warm air to rise out of the FC drawing more cool air from the bottom ?



Yes, but if referring to a SGFC, this is only going to hinder its overall functionality.

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
With out a heat source in there my temp is like 18C , which from what i read is to cold for fruiting /?



That is bullshit, 65F is fine for fruiting.

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23164380 - 04/28/16 08:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
Quote:

PussyFart said:
Warm air rises, thus pulling the cooler air up thru the holes in the bottom.




Nah that's backwards. An SGFC has too many holes to demand air be drawn through cold wet perlite.



:facepalm: Wrong.

Heat rises = fact

Humidity rises = fact

When you have heat and humidity currents both rising out the top holes in a SGFC, air can only be pulled in thru the bottom holes.

It's physically impossible for this to happen any different.

The heat and humidity are not going to just change direction because of bad logic.

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
If the air above is heated, it will rise on its own, and I would expect this to draw air in through the lowest side holes above the perlite.



Yes, and thru the holes in the bottom....

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
The perlite should be evaporating water, which increases the humidity, and lowers the density causing it to rise. This rise pushes the rest of the air out.



Yes, and air passing up thru the perlite helps with this.

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
Since an SGFC has so many holes, air leaving through the top doesn't mean air has to enter through the bottom.
Air coming up from the bottom does mean that air has to leave out the top though.



Contradict yourself much lately?

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: PussyFart]
    #23164718 - 04/28/16 10:47 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
where does the heat come from if there is no heat source.



The cakes.


So what if theres only one small half pint cake in there ? does it generate enough heat to create the current?


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: PussyFart]
    #23164731 - 04/28/16 10:51 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
With out a heat source in there my temp is like 18C , which from what i read is to cold for fruiting /?



That is bullshit, 65F is fine for fruiting.






Ok phew thanks man. I think ill be fine and can stop worrying. I came home and im sitting at 21C and around 90% RH . I fluffed up the perlite real good with a fork and the inside FC walls were dry to i think im getting good FAE while holding good temp and RH. Seems good when the light is on , perhaps due to it creating heat in the top portion of the chamber?


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164736 - 04/28/16 10:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the feed back guy s I appreciate it and understand a little better about all this RH / temps / and pressure currents.

when the light is off the humidity spikes and temp drops is this normal ?


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Invisiblemupetmower
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23164750 - 04/28/16 10:58 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, think about it. light gives off heat. when it is off the temp will drop. when the temp drops, that makes the rH a higher percentage since the colder air is, the less moisture it can hold. =]


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-I wanna feel the change consume me, feel the outside turning in. I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within.

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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23164787 - 04/28/16 11:08 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Basic Principles of the Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

Humid air is less dense than dry air. As the water on the perlite evaporates, it rises up and out the upper holes while simultaneously drawing FA in through the bottom holes and up through the damp perlite thus creating a system humid FAE. If you cover the bottom holes, the perlite evaporates much much slower and the RH drops. That's reasonable evidence to support the claim that air coming in through the perlite plays a major role in functionality.

If you have a heat source inside, it will lower RH because warm air holds more moisture than cooler air. When you have the lid on, more heat gets trapped, thus lowering RH. The heat also rises, but because the heat source is on top of the perlite, more air gets drawn in from the open holes, thus adding more dry air and does very little for perlite evaporation except on the surface.

The main lesson here is to heat the room, not the FC. Alterations to the SGFC will usually cause it to perform worse. Many have tried to alter it and the vast majority have failed.


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OfflineGreenRabbit
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23164923 - 04/28/16 12:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Y'all misunderstood me.

In a normal SGFC, the perlite evaporating water is the driving force.
It takes the air at the very bottom of the tub and moves it upwards.
This draws in through the bottom.


If you have a heated bowl of water in there, the air above the perlite gets much warmer than the perlite.
The driving force becomes air leaving, not being pushed.
This will separate the air from the perlite somewhat.
Air can leave just because it gets warmer and this will cause a lot of airflow but most of the air will be drawn in from the lowest holes above the perlite.
There just isn't much of a reason for air to travel through the perlite anymore.
It is really cold, so it isn't evaporating much water, and has a minimal impact on environment.

Basically, the warm water being there ruins the air current the perlite is trying to create.
Either that, or the bowl of water doesn't really have much effect at all.

That's why I suggested just warming the whole room and allowing the perlite to work.

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Invisiblemupetmower
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23164966 - 04/28/16 12:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

yeah fo sho..

i was just answering the OP's question about when he turns his light off and the temp and rH drops =p


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-The wise man never stops seeking knowledge.


-I wanna feel the change consume me, feel the outside turning in. I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within.

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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity *DELETED* [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23167461 - 04/29/16 12:01 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by Luminous7

Reason for deletion: unorganised



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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23167463 - 04/29/16 12:02 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry that quote reply is so wonky


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23167483 - 04/29/16 12:13 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Basic Principles of the Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

Humid air is less dense than dry air. As the water on the perlite evaporates, it rises up and out the upper holes while simultaneously drawing FA in through the bottom holes and up through the damp perlite thus creating a system humid FAE. If you cover the bottom holes, the perlite evaporates much much slower and the RH drops. That's reasonable evidence to support the claim that air coming in through the perlite plays a major role in functionality.

If you have a heat source inside, it will lower RH because warm air holds more moisture than cooler air. When you have the lid on, more heat gets trapped, thus lowering RH. The heat also rises, but because the heat source is on top of the perlite, more air gets drawn in from the open holes, thus adding more dry air and does very little for perlite evaporation except on
Humid air is less dense than dry air. As the water on the perlite evaporates, it rises up and out the upper holes while simultaneously drawing FA in through the bottom holes and up through the damp perlite thus creating a system humid FAE. If you cover the bottom holes, the perlite evaporates much much slower and the RH drops. That's reasonable evidence to support the claim that air coming in through the perlite plays a major role in functionality.



The main lesson here is to heat the room, not the FC. Alterations to the SGFC will usually cause it to perform worse. Many have tried to alter it and the vast majority have failed.












So the key is to heat the perlite to encourage evaporation thus creating humid air flow up wards and fresh air in through the bottom ? Would the only way to evaporate moisture off the perlite be via the lights heat hitting the surface of the perlite ? and a combination of the ambient rooms temperature warming the perlite from underneath? what about a heat mat underneath the SGFC to encourage evaporation through the perlite ?


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GreenRabbit]
    #23167497 - 04/29/16 12:19 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GreenRabbit said:
Y'all misunderstood me.

In a normal SGFC, the perlite evaporating water is the driving force.
It takes the air at the very bottom of the tub and moves it upwards.
This draws in through the bottom.


If you have a heated bowl of water in there, the air above the perlite gets much warmer than the perlite.
The driving force becomes air leaving, not being pushed.
This will separate the air from the perlite somewhat.
Air can leave just because it gets warmer and this will cause a lot of airflow but most of the air will be drawn in from the lowest holes above the perlite.
There just isn't much of a reason for air to travel through the perlite anymore.
It is really cold, so it isn't evaporating much water, and has a minimal impact on environment.

Basically, the warm water being there ruins the air current the perlite is trying to create.
Either that, or the bowl of water doesn't really have much effect at all.

That's why I suggested just warming the whole room and allowing the perlite to work.





I like this explaination. Warm the perlite so it can "push" evaporation upward


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23167504 - 04/29/16 12:21 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mupetmower said:
yeah, think about it. light gives off heat. when it is off the temp will drop. when the temp drops, that makes the rH a higher percentage since the colder air is, the less moisture it can hold. =]




Yea that makes sense. Just checking. SO its ok to have a cooler "lights off" period and high 100% humidity? i guess thats kinda like nature where everything is cold and moist at night ?


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23174023 - 04/30/16 08:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Heat the room, not the FC or any of it's parts. It doesn't take much to get perlite to evaporate, just access to some fresh air and the ability for air flow.

A SGFC will do it's job if you don't mess with it too much.

A heat mat underneath won't do much to increase RH and it won't do anything to heat up the SGFC because the temperature inside will be regulated by the air around it in the room. You don't need to increase the RH of SGFC, just mist the cakes like you are supposed to and the RH at the surface of the cakes will be where it's supposed to be and so will the FC.


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OfflineLuminous7


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23174782 - 05/01/16 12:35 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Heat the room, not the FC or any of it's parts. It doesn't take much to get perlite to evaporate, just access to some fresh air and the ability for air flow.

A SGFC will do it's job if you don't mess with it too much.

A heat mat underneath won't do much to increase RH and it won't do anything to heat up the SGFC because the temperature inside will be regulated by the air around it in the room. You don't need to increase the RH of SGFC, just mist the cakes like you are supposed to and the RH at the surface of the cakes will be where it's supposed to be and so will the FC.



Thanks for gettiing back to me . Yeah im noticing since i took the Aquarium tank heater out of there its alot more "low maintenance". And is usually at 80-90% RH. My only option is to use a little space heater to raise temps in the room , kind of annoying but oh well. 
How often should i be misting ? I feel like im soaking alot. the cake is always soggy and pretty heavy when i pick it up.


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Invisiblemupetmower
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23175113 - 05/01/16 05:39 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

only mist when the cake looks dry. and then mist until it has tiny little beads of moisture. dont do it on a schedule, but only when it needs it. :thumbup: =]


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-I wanna feel the change consume me, feel the outside turning in. I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within.

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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23175813 - 05/01/16 10:46 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

:whathesaid:

I've been hoping this would get a lot more examples posted. perhaps you'd be willing to contribute? The Misted Cake Project



I use a space heater in the winter as well. I find the oil filled radiators with a thermostat to work the best.


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OfflineGaiaSporeworks
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23175877 - 05/01/16 11:04 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mupetmower said:
only mist when the cake looks dry. and then mist until it has tiny little beads of moisture. dont do it on a schedule, but only when it needs it. :thumbup: =]



This is how I do it as well. Not too much, not too little. Only when it looks like it's dry.

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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: GaiaSporeworks]
    #23175893 - 05/01/16 11:09 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

warmer temp allows for more moisture to be held in the air

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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #23175984 - 05/01/16 11:35 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
:whathesaid:

I've been hoping this would get a lot more examples posted. perhaps you'd be willing to contribute? The Misted Cake Project



I use a space heater in the winter as well. I find the oil filled radiators with a thermostat to work the best.





are you asking me to provide some pics for examples for it? sure, i can. i mean i am still a noob, but i will, and if it seems like i am doing it right, then you can use the pictures =p

tomorrow, when i wake up, ill take a pic, and document every time i mist for that day, with pictures and notes.

if you werent taking to me, then... haha sorry for assuming.


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23176050 - 05/01/16 11:58 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I think he meant everyone.

If you do take pics, make sure flash is on so you can see the glistening. You need light to see it.


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Invisiblemupetmower
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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Mad Season]
    #23176081 - 05/01/16 12:06 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

alright, cool. haha.


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23176923 - 05/01/16 04:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks alot guys!  when you say it looks dry do you mean when the verm is not glistening ? Cuz my cake can be pretty "heavy" when lifted to check if its drying out and seems like its saturated with water even when the verm isnt glistening?
I maybe mist and fan like 2-3 times a day

I think im doing fine. Just kinda at that point where im over thinking because im waiting for my pins to start becomming visible

It has been 6 days since i dunk and rolled and still no sign of primordia or anything. How long roughly does it take to see pins from the point of birthing ?


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23177014 - 05/01/16 04:55 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

time to pins is usually about 3-14 days

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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23177093 - 05/01/16 05:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
time to pins is usually about 3-14 days



From this i learn patience.... thanks man


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23177098 - 05/01/16 05:15 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, youll see em soon enough. one of my cakes that pinned in-vitro started pinning after 1.5-2 days after it's dunk/roll, then another cake that also pinned in-vitro took about 7-8 days to pin. i know it's rough, especially on first grows, but patience is key. and yeah, dont overthink shit. it is so hard to not mentally masturbate, i know..

also, yes, when the verm/cake's surface looks dry and isnt glistening, it is usually time to mist. the weight of the cake has little to do with when to mist. on a side note, you can for sure tell when your flush is essentially over by the weight. when you dunk/roll your cake, it feels like a glass full of water, and then once it flushes, and you go to dunk it again, it is sooo much lighter than it seems it should be, by it's size haha.


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23177130 - 05/01/16 05:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mupetmower said:
yeah, youll see em soon enough. one of my cakes that pinned in-vitro started pinning after 1.5-2 days after it's dunk/roll, then another cake that also pinned in-vitro took about 7-8 days to pin. i know it's rough, especially on first grows, but patience is key. and yeah, dont overthink shit. it is so hard to not mentally masturbate, i know..

also, yes, when the verm/cake's surface looks dry and isnt glistening, it is usually time to mist. the weight of the cake has little to do with when to mist. on a side note, you can for sure tell when your flush is essentially over by the weight. when you dunk/roll your cake, it feels like a glass full of water, and then once it flushes, and you go to dunk it again, it is sooo much lighter than it seems it should be, by it's size haha.



holy shit thats fast ! awesome , yea its hard not to ever think for sure haha. thanks for the info on the flushes / weight , makes sense. I think im on the right track!

Respect brotha!


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: Luminous7]
    #23177138 - 05/01/16 05:25 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

heh, well i dont know about not ever thinking, but definitely dont over think.. =p

:feelsgoatman:


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Re: Temp and Humidity [Re: mupetmower]
    #23177632 - 05/01/16 07:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

lmao "over" **** my bad haha


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