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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) * 8
    #23155612 - 04/26/16 02:01 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Hello everyone,  [This TEK is still UNDER CONSTRUCTION]

History

Amanita Muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric, is a psychoactive mushroom notorious for mis-preparation inducing sickness and bad trips. It is unfortunate that amanita is given such a bad reputation.

Amanita muscaria has been widely used as an entheogen by the indigenous peoples of Siberia; northern Norway, Sweden and Finland, the Kola Peninsula of Russia, Afghanistan, and north America. In western Siberia, the use of Muscaria is usually restricted to shamans, but in eastern Siberia it is unrestricted and freely used by anyone with an interest in exploring the Muscaria entheogenic state. The traditional use of Amanita in other countries is less certain in academia - as the topic has been poorly studied, or information has been lost over the years.

The consumption of raw Muscaria seems to be one of the better explanations for how the tribes of northern Europe would turn warriors into berzerkers. The berzerker stereotype involves performing a war dance, and screaming, to induce excitement and frenzy, then at the peak, there is a period of inhuman strength, rage, ignorance to damage and pain, followed by a period of exhaustion and a sleep... state-spaces similar to this is what is seen when Muscaria is consumed at the right dose, as one active compound metabolizes into the secondary active compound. If a non-warrior takes the same doses, without performing an excitatory war dance with screaming, the mushroom would instead induce nausea and mood bipolarity.

My hypothesis is that mulled wine exists as a culturally popular concept today because, historically, the consumption of Amanita Muscaria can be an enjoyable experience, and mulled wine was the traditional preparation of Amanita Muscaria in Europe.
Without special equipment, it is much easier and more consistent to brew muscimol mulled wine than it is to brew alcohol - there is less chance of contamination, and Muscaria literally grow on trees.

Mulled wine is well known as a winter beverage because ibotinic acid, one of the compounds found in Muscaria, is thermogenic (warms you up). The same compound is antibiotic and fungicidal, so allows people to store grape juice for years without it going off (similar to alcoholic wine).

Experiences

If prepared well, you'll experience a period of deep sleepiness and physical disability (you will probably need to lie down), your body temperature will decrease, and if you try to stay awake you will remain disoriented and sensitive to light. Allowing yourself to fall asleep, you will slip out of reality and into an entheogenic, lucid, (often) narrative, altered state of consciousness. It might be comparable to something in between a GHB, and a high dose of Galantamine. Musicmol also has dissociative effects, and can induce hypnagogia, lucid dreaming, astral projections and outer body experiences. If you don't reach these states (and just sleep) then you've likely taken too little muscimol for the acetylcholine release, or if you go unconscious and/or seizure you've taken too much. Like other hallucinogens, set and setting are important, you can have bad trips, as well as good.

The relaxation/high is different to opioids, and the entheogenicity is different to tryptamine-land, not really comparable, both it's relaxation and entheogenicity are best compared to intense lucid dream states. Like psychedelics, you will find that the quality changes depending on your setting... lights and music is going to be different to silent darkness, and being outside in nature is going to be different to being indoors. It might be that you don't like one setting but you like another, so try them all out when you're getting to know the muscaria wine.

Peak experiences with muscimol can include full dissociation, ego-death and universe traversal, like with other entheogens.

Ibotenic Acid, the main active compound in raw Muscaria, at high doses, causes thermogenicity and sweating, nausea and frothing, racing thoughts, certainty and meaningness, feelings of vigor/strength, feelings of distortion of size, disorientation/confusion, and depending on set and setting will exacerbate primal feelings such as rage, terror, grief, ecstasy or glee, e.g. if starting anxious will increase anxiety/panic, if starting angry will increase anger. Ibotinic acid is neurotoxic. Ibotinic acid at extremely high doses will induce seizures.. So, if you feel you'll feel any strong bouts of any of the symptoms listed above, you have left too much ibotinic acid in the brew and should boil your batches longer. If your trips are too cold, devoid of energy, devoid of emotion and meaningness, then you might like to boil your batches less and leave some more ibotinic acid in your brew.

Combinations

Opiates like poppy seed tea are highly synergistic. Soaking poppy at the end of the brewing process can make the trip more hedonically uplifting and reduce the risk of a bad trip.

Marijuana can make the trip more uplifting too, but usually reduces lucidity and makes the trip harder to process and remember.

Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors like huperzine or galantamine will potentiate muscimol's lucidity effects, but this combination could be harmful.

Anti-muscarinics like belladona/datura can make the Muscaria experience incredibly intense, potentiating the clarity and the dissociation, reducing the lucidity. As with any anti-muscarinic administration if dosages are not correct this can lead to hospitalization. "Hot as a hare, blind as a bat, dry as a bone, red as a beet, and mad as a hatter".

Nootropics like memantine or piracetam may protect the brain by reducing the excitotoxic effects of ibotinic acid, but little data exists for such combinations.

Psilocybin and other psychedelics combine well with muscimol mulled wine, but it does change the quality of the trip. Adding mushrooms to the hot brew at the end is equivalent to making a muscimol infused lemon-tek mushroom tea. Serotonergics reduce sleepiness, so it might be harder to get to sleep and you may find yourself stuck in hyper-lucid half-wake/sleep states, or states that are both more realistically wake-like but also more trippy and confusing.

Sedatives like benzos, alcohol, will potentiate muscimol but also reduce the clarity and lucidity. Do not combine GHB with muscimol, as like GHB, muscimol already has a small theraputic range, and stacking them may lead to seizures, respiratory depression, or even coma. No data on combining with phenibut.

I've found little data on combining muscimol with stimulants. I would be very wary of adding amphetamines to the mix, as I predict high doses of both would lead to an energized, feverish delirium.

No reports were found for combining NMDA antagonists like Ketamine and Muscimol. I can't see how this combo would be dangerous, but I'm not sure if it would synergize or diminish the muscimol experience.

I've found little data on combining muscimol with MAOIs. I make no predictions about what might happen.

Pharmacology

Muscimol is a neuroprotective, orthosteric GABA-A agonist. Muscimol's direct stimulation of GABAergic interneurons in the striatum, visual cortex, and other brain regions, forces the release of acetylcholine which is the likely cause of it's hallucinogenic properties. This differs to alcohol, which is a neurotoxic allosteric GABA-A agonist, and differs to Phenibut and GHB, which are GABA-B agonists.

Ibotinic acid converts to muscimol in the body, and muscimol is then filtered by the kidneys into the urine. This is why there are tribal methods of consuming Muscaria that involve drinking a shaman's urine. We can replicate this process ex vivo by using acid to catalyse the reaction of the toxin into the entheogen, donating protons to the position of the toxin's carboxyl group. I find it hilarious that in this day and age people still consider drinking piss when, with a bit of chemistry, one can decarboxylate ibotinic acid to muscimol in a tasty beverage without a problem.

Foreword

Often we see people making a basic Amanita Tea, but as elucidated above, neutral pHs does not effectively decarboxylate ibotinic acid, which is completely stable in tap water at room temperature. To break down ibotinic acid, we want hot acidic solutions like grape juice.

NOTE: This guide works with measured averages, but at certain climates and seasons Amanitas can be much more and much less potent than the listed average.

THE RECIPE

0. Pick whole Amanita mushrooms.

1. Clean Amanitas with toothbrush and chop into small pieces.
    Like when picking psilocybe, mix the pieces to average out the active content across fruits.

2. Set some cap aside for making mycelium, ambrosias and fly-traps, then
    Dehydrate Amanita until cracker dry.

3. Add 60g dried Amanita into 1L grape juice and stir.
    Get creative with fruit, herbs and spices, you're making mulled wine now!
    If unsure, start with slices of orange, ginger, mint, a cinnamon stick, an anise star, a few cloves, and a dash of apple cider vinegar.
    You may pasteurize, bottle and store it at this point, ibotenic acid will give this liquid a decent shelf-life, but to drink it you'll need to follow the steps below.

4. Bring to boil and simmer with the lid closed for 5-10 minutes, or up to 180 minutes depending on your preferred ibotinic acid content (longer = less ibotinic acid, I prefer shorter boils)
    Note: active compounds might be lost in the steam. I like to use a pressured lid or slow cooker.

    Alternatively, follow one of the steps below.

    4B. (Alternative) Dilute 1:1 (total of 2L), add 1/3 cup raw sugar, 1/4 tsp baking powder, the lacto-probiotic, and ferment for 48h.
    If unsure, use grape-adapted kefir. Find more information here: Grape Juice Kefir.

    4C. (Alternative) Add 14mg GAD and 0.3mg P5P (B6) and stir. Wait 4 hours.


5. Add any combinatorial additions to the brew (poppy, huperzine, psilocybin, etc)
    If liquid is lost you may like to top it back up.

6. Strain out all non-liquids and squeeze juices back into the brew.
    You might like to use muslin and rubber gloves.
    The end product is acidic, I recommend diluting 1:1 or 1:2 before drinking.
    If it's not sweet enough you can add extra honey/sugar.
    Serve and drink.

This recipe makes four 'serves', each serve has an estimated ~100mg actives.
Remember that potency varies across seasons and areas, so if you do not know the average strength of your dried mix, or are inexperienced, do not drink more than 2 serves in one sitting.

These estimates are for a 70kg male. If you are a 40kg woman, halve all these values, if you're 140kg you may be able to double all these value (but not without heavy precaution). If you have kidney damage then do not consume this at all. Depending on bodyweight (take mg/kg into account) and metabolism, for single doses:
Muscimol is anxiolytic at ~1-2mg
                  a relaxant at ~2-5mg
                  a sleep aid at ~5-50mg
                  lightly entheogenic at ~50-100mg (half to one serve of this recipe)
                  moderately entheogenic at ~100-150mg (one and a half serves)
                  heavily entheogenic above ~150-200mg (two serves)
A "Siberian Shamanic" dose is ~250mg (two and a half serves)
Muscimol is a general anaesthetic (temporarily coma-inducing) somewhere above this dosage
Muscimol is possibly lethal at ~500mg+???


If Pantherina is used instead of Muscaria, assume that all mg/g is at least 1.6x more potent.

Assumptions, Calculations and Other Details

These values are very different to what's found on Wikipedia and Erowid. When Cooper (1977) reports 8.5mg as an active dose, it is not taking into account that there was likely an accompanying 76.5mg ibotinic acid which was then metabolised to muscimol in his body. Erowid reports ibotenic acid is entheogenically active at 50-100 mg (Ott and Stafford) and muscimol displays activity at 10-15 mg, but again they are not taking into account metabolism.

The levels of muscimol detected in samples were of 0.19% d.w. (A. muscaria), and 0.3% d.w. (A. pantherina). Considering we currently have no measurements of ibotenic content, Pantheria tek might exceed the 1.6x potency.

Catalfomo & Eugster 1970a, Ott, Preston & Chilton 1975 report maximum ibotenic content in fresh fruit of up to 100mg per 100g. In contrast, another paper (Gennaro et al. 1997) reported average ibotenic content of 99mg/100g (caps) and 23mg/100g (stems), and muscimol content of 38mg/100g (caps) and 8mg/100g (stems). The patent claims 9:1 ibo to musc ratio, but according to this study, fresh mushrooms have a ~3:1 ibo to musc ratio. If one is to cut the stem at the bulb, it is reported that caps are on average ~66% and stems are ~33% of the total fruit weight. This means that at these proportions there's on average ~1mg of actives per 1g whole fresh fruit, or ~7mg of actives per 1g whole dried powder.

Assuming the patent's reports of ~9:1 ibotinic to muscimol ratio in fresh Amanita, we can calculate averages:
~90mg ibotinic and 10mg muscimol per 100g fruit.
~100g fresh fruit will dehydrate down to ~15g dry
The patent reports a change to ~3:2 in dried, which implies:
~60mg ibotinic and 40mg muscimol per 15g dry, which is:
~4mg ibotinic and 2.67mg muscimol per 1g dry.
The patent reports a change to 1:50 after ~3h acidic heat treatment.

From the spoilered information above, can infer that there is:
~0.13mg ibotenic and 6.54mg muscimol per 1g dried then acid-heat treated Amanita Muscaria

Grape juice has a pH between 3 and 4 via tartaric, malic, and citric acids. This is a big variance, and will effect the results. If your grape juice's pH is not low enough, this is why you add extra acid.

Kefir needs a certain sugar content and pH level to thrive. This is why we add bicarbonate, to make it more basic. Diluting it allows us to reduce acidity slightly more, and reduce sugar concentration (which is then topped up with kefir's preferred food cane sugar). If you dilute, then take note of this change in concentration for tracking the estimated g/100ml active compounds.

Both the ibotinic acid and the spices are anti-bacterial, and if too concentrated, the kefir may fail to thrive. You might like to try both steps 4 and 4B, slow cook, then ferment? If fermenting you probably don't want to too spicy.


Other Notes:

Muscimol increases the power of all brain wave frequency bands. It's effect on sleep depends on the dose taken, your level of sleep deprivation, the time of day and circadian rhythm. If tired, lower doses will deepen deep sleep. If taken around dawn, it makes dreams more vivid, if you are into lucid dreaming and do the WBTB method, you can drink muscimol during your wake and you'll dream very intensely when you go back to bed. If you're really high and need to come down, it will help bring you down. In comparison, benzos will get you to sleep but will reduce slow wave frequencies and not recover you very well, even impede memory consolidation. I personally think that, if you know your correct dosages, it is superior to a benzo. Muscimol can quieten the mind chatter, and as it increases theta brain waves, it lends itself nicely to meditation. Ibotinic acid will ruin your sleep quality, and possibly keep you awake.

Muscimol can lower blood pressure and heart rate. If you already have low blood pressure you might not be able to move around too much. If you or friend are afflicted with a bit of serotonin syndrome, muscimol can help mitigate some of the symptoms and increase survival like a benzo does. I mention this because I know how many people here might have had to deal with a bit of SS by pharmacological accident, though don't rely on it as a wonder cure for SS, it is no replacement for serotonin-production blocking agents.

Don't take muscimol too often if you've got a typical immune system. A bit like alcohol, muscimol is anti-inflammatory, but also immuno-suppressive, so would be bad if you're fighting off a cold or infection.

At low doses ibotinic acid may be an acute memory enhancer and treatment for Seasonal Affective Disorder. Ibotenic Acid is dosed at 3-8mg for these purposes, which is usually 4-5g of fresh cap or ~1 gram of dry. However long term use of Ibotenic is has not been studied and chronic use may age the brain faster via NMDA receptor excitotoxicity. Things to help prevent excitotoxicity are nicotine, melatonin and funnily enough... muscimol!

Amanita Muscaria toxicity case reports describe repeated cycles of periods of seizure and periods of unconsciousness. One explanation for these symptoms are that the ibotinic acid induces seizures then the body converts enough to muscimol to make the body unconscious for a while, then the kidneys filter the muscimol out and the seizures start again. Another explanation for these symptoms could be cholinergic toxicity due to muscimol's direct action on acetylcholine release. It could be a combination of the two.


Do be careful about the potency of your Amanita wine. Due to seasonal fluctuations, you could have much more or much less than the average calculated muscimol. If concerned about safety, start by drinking only a small amount of liquid, and work your way up until you have established your personal threshold dose in mls of liquid for that particular amount of g/100ml.

If you try this tek, you can help compile data by reporting the potency of your formula, and what ingredients you used:
Grams of Amanita per 100ml of liquid.
Mls of tekked liquid required for various effects and hallucinogenic threshold dose.
Grams of tekked amanita required for various effects and hallucinogenic threshold dose.
And as always, post any reports of toxic effects or recipe troubles.

I hope some shroomers will help me compile some reports for this tek before sharing with noobies, I'd hate for a noobie to accidentally poison themselves or put themselves in a coma. Having said that:
1. Properly treated Amanita is an unappreciated shroom
2. Ibotenic acid is neurotoxic and in high doses induces seizures, we need to agree upon a safe ibotenic conversion tek
3. Amanita is unappreciated becausethere have been no good teks and so people revert to unsafe practices leading to bad trips.

Good luck!


--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


Edited by Jiemba (06/18/18 02:27 AM)


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Invisiblespaztastic
The Gentleman
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 02/07/16
Posts: 1,018
Re: Amanita Grape TEK [Re: Jiemba]
    #23155904 - 04/26/16 06:25 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

OooOOOooOOOo

Going out this weekend to find more Amanitas

Will give this a Try


Thanks Dude


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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Re: Amanita Grape TEK [Re: spaztastic]
    #23159987 - 04/27/16 02:52 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

If you get some wet ones, can you please weight them before and after dehydration? I think the 70g wet ~ 10g dry conversion might be off. I can't double check this because my latest batch is already semi-dried, no fresh. It would be good to have 2-3 people come up with wet to dry conversion rates and we can use the average, and this will help me update the mg/g calculations such that they're more accurate.


--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


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Invisiblespaztastic
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Registered: 02/07/16
Posts: 1,018
Re: Amanita Grape TEK [Re: Jiemba]
    #23160070 - 04/27/16 03:40 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Too Easy Buddy.


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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23286554 - 05/30/16 02:04 AM (6 years, 27 days ago)

Here is a video from 2015 where a guy explains how to make "ambrosia".

The difficulties of teks like these is that there's no way of knowing the potency or content of the recipe, it could have 1mg/100ml or 1000mg/100ml, honestly, who knows? Also we aren't even sure that the fleece is even producing ibotinic acid or muscimol, though I'd probably bet it is. Ideally we'd have the fleece DNA tested to make sure it's really amanita mycelium. If it's not, then the next step would be to find out what kinds of chemicals the fleece is producing via and of course what kind of species it really is.



--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


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Invisibleellomello
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23290115 - 05/31/16 12:37 AM (6 years, 26 days ago)

Ambrosia is good for vivid dreams. it can be easy as adding a piece of dry Amanita to grape juice...  and wait three days, or more. http://ambrosiasociety.org/


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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: ellomello]
    #23293599 - 05/31/16 09:35 PM (6 years, 26 days ago)

ellomello have you got personal experience making this? I haven't seen anything but negative talk about ambrosia in the shroomery archives (search function), warning against experimenting with it. It would be nice to have some shroomers speak up about their practical experiences rather than hear shit talk from skeptics.

When I did some research on how muscimol could effect sleep architecture, it seems to increase ALL of the frequency ranges. This might be one part of the puzzle in how it both deepens deep sleep and increases vividness of REM.


--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


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Offlinetump
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23294823 - 06/01/16 05:28 AM (6 years, 25 days ago)

Ive been making bacths of mushroom wine for three month's now. Only 13 bacths and some not not closed to done. But you want to use wet mushrooms for it. Also i dont have any amanita or id try to perfect this with you. You by the way should use the vinger unless you plan on cooking by boiling. It will change a lot of achol into vinger later. As well as increase the flowers of wine problem.


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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) *DELETED* [Re: tump]
    #23324368 - 06/09/16 02:51 AM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Post deleted by Jiemba

Reason for deletion: It's an outdated post. I have continued to make updates.



--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


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Invisibleellomello
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23329357 - 06/10/16 03:19 PM (6 years, 16 days ago)

I've tried it a few months ago after finding that ambrosia site.
it was way easy, and now to think of it, i would like some more.
i used expensive organic grape juice, just to be safe and fancy,
it came in a glass bottle, and juice comes sterilized of course.

i ordered them so they were dry, but i imagine fresh works good.
it was said any part will work, but i scaped from inside a stem.
i used a small pinch of amanita, after three days, white fleece!

The dust grew into a fluffy floating waffer that covers the top.
and the juice was infused with a truly delicious amanita flavor.

Waking effects are relaxing but mild, with flowing vivid dreams.

Though, i ate the waffer, and didn't attemp to keep the culture... Supposedly,
one could keep it indefinately by just adding fresh grape juice.


--------------------
PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN get back to the garden

some came singing, some come to play, some come for keeping the dark away


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Offlinetump
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: ellomello]
    #23331585 - 06/11/16 03:50 AM (6 years, 15 days ago)

Even the best yeast cultures only live so long if it was still fermenting before first phase then you could keep tranfering it to new bacthes. I hate when beer makers or whiskey makers lie about the master yeast being alive a hundred plus years. Its always a new geration of its parents.


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OfflineJiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 4 years, 7 days
Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: tump]
    #23338181 - 06/13/16 02:28 AM (6 years, 13 days ago)

Trump, except the fleece is apparently not yeast, it is meant to be mycelium.

Quote:

Is this the largest organism in the world? This 2,400-acre [970-hectare] site in eastern Oregon had a contiguous growth of mycelium before logging roads cut through it. Estimated at 1,665 football fields in size and 2,200 years old, this one fungus has killed the forest above it several times over, and in so doing has built deeper soil layers that allow the growth of ever-larger stands of trees. Mushroom-forming forest fungi are unique in that their mycelial mats can achieve such massive proportions.
— Paul Stamets, Mycelium Running




IF this is true (and I plan on testing it sometime in the future) then the viability of the fleece won't decrease over time.


--------------------
:sporedrop: Guide for consuming Amanita Muscaria, click here. :sporedrop:

:heart: Deep Dive into McKenna's Death, Rebirth and Last Message :heart:

"Why do you believe what you believe? What do you think you know and how do you think you know it?" - E. Yudkowsky
:idea: Rationality: From AI to Zombies. Read it now. :idea:


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OfflineClintMassey
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23345131 - 06/14/16 11:13 PM (6 years, 11 days ago)

I come from eastern eurpe and there are shitloads of amanita muscaria growing around here,probably everywhere but I mean shitloads when I say it I read somewhere that in the sunrise morning when the forest are pretty humid amanitas create a cup like caps and the water from the high humidity gets capturesd in the cap and when you drink the water that has accumulated in the cap of the mushrooms you will have beautiful spritual trip and you wont get poisoned or anything like that,it is refered to holy grail or something like that,Idk where I read that it was in some shamanic literature as I can remember,definitively a beautiful and a very scary mushroom to everyone I know,just like datura that grows here,people tried to trip on datura and did some pretty insane stuff when they got stuck tripping on it sorry if I went out of the discussion I just wanted to share the thing about amanita that I read maybe someone else knows a little more about it


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OfflineJiemba
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: ClintMassey]
    #23374997 - 06/23/16 09:43 PM (6 years, 3 days ago)

Not my video, but relevant :smile:



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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23394792 - 06/29/16 06:24 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jiemba said:
Here is a video from 2015 where a guy explains how to make "ambrosia".

The difficulties of teks like these is that there's no way of knowing the potency or content of the recipe, it could have 1mg/100ml or 1000mg/100ml, honestly, who knows? Also we aren't even sure that the fleece is even producing ibotinic acid or muscimol, though I'd probably bet it is. Ideally we'd have the fleece DNA tested to make sure it's really amanita mycelium. If it's not, then the next step would be to find out what kinds of chemicals the fleece is producing via and of course what kind of species it really is.







    Bio-essay it, that will answer all these questions just not in numbers.


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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23433608 - 07/12/16 12:38 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Great tek, am trying this out. Have been looking for ages for something like this, packed full of info too. Thank you. :bow:


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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: NobodyYouKnow]
    #23471442 - 07/24/16 07:47 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Is there any reason other fruit juices would not work just as well? It is just that i do not have ready access to grape juice but i could make some fresh squeezed red,black,and white currant juice, or cherry juice, pure apple juice is also readily available.


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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23499929 - 08/01/16 10:55 PM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Lennybernadino, you can use any low-pH (acidic) juice...

Prune Juice 3.95-3.97
Tomatoes, Juice 4.10-4.60
Cranberry Juice 2.30-2.52
Pineapple Juice 3.30-3.60
Apple Juice 3.4

I am sure currant and cherry juice are acidic enough. Just, if it's not acidic enough then add more lemon juice or vinegar. Use a pH calculator to estimate the acidity of your brew.


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Edited by Jiemba (08/01/16 10:57 PM)


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OfflineLennybernadino
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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23511578 - 08/05/16 04:56 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

Does anybody have any experience reports for using this tek?


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amanita muscaria [Re: Jiemba]
    #23546156 - 08/16/16 09:18 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

i used to collect these in upstate ny alot and eat them; they are yellowish there. i also have tried to grow them. i knew someone who did grow them. i would like to get some. check out my new post under this category and under mushroom cultivation please.


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Re: Amanita Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: ClintMassey]
    #23571797 - 08/24/16 06:19 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ClintMassey said:
I come from eastern eurpe and there are shitloads of amanita muscaria growing around here,probably everywhere but I mean shitloads when I say it I read somewhere that in the sunrise morning when the forest are pretty humid amanitas create a cup like caps and the water from the high humidity gets capturesd in the cap and when you drink the water that has accumulated in the cap of the mushrooms you will have beautiful spritual trip and you wont get poisoned or anything like that,it is refered to holy grail or something like that,Idk where I read that it was in some shamanic literature as I can remember,definitively a beautiful and a very scary mushroom to everyone I know,just like datura that grows here,people tried to trip on datura and did some pretty insane stuff when they got stuck tripping on it sorry if I went out of the discussion I just wanted to share the thing about amanita that I read maybe someone else knows a little more about it




  As always, science does not understand most of reality and this is especially true with genetics. Many as of yet unkown factors could be at play for example when myceliums of the same species meet they sometimes fight, or hold their space or meld together fusing genetic information and becoming one organism. If the third option happens then thing s like degestion memory of substrates or youthful vigor may be contributed. So in the case of this gian honey mushroom colony, it could be that new colonies created by spores are constantly being createfd fusing with the mother colony and renewing the youthful vigor of the whole mycelium matrix.


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23605017 - 09/02/16 05:04 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I am trying to make a batch of ambrosia, first batch is cherry, mixed currant juice that i haevested and squeezed and pasteurized i managed to stay between 180-190degrees for an hour higher than 85 is not ideal but this is my first time with stovetop pasteurization, i inoculated it whith a fresh piece of gill , after5 days no visible results so then i groubd some dried cap an inoculated it two days ago and did another batch in pure apple juice.


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23617010 - 09/06/16 07:09 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't had any luck making ambrosia so far... mould, mould everywhere! Perhaps my environment is not clean enough?


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Jiemba]
    #23617231 - 09/06/16 09:16 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Whats the juice your using sugar levels and what kind of mold problems


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: tump]
    #23621884 - 09/07/16 02:37 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, In one jar what may have been AM mycelium was growing but the trich showed up too, I think with a better setup...


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23625102 - 09/08/16 10:45 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Trich really in a flower shape


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: tump]
    #23682232 - 09/27/16 07:51 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I'm going to keep an eye open for those fly agarics and make some of that! As a homebrewer/liqueur-mixer, gatherer of wild herbs and mushrooms, selfproclaimed alchemist and oneiromancer (okay, that might be a bit much), this is right up my alley.

Thanks for the insanely detailed post. You're the kind of person that makes this site great.


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Jiemba]
    #23699457 - 10/02/16 10:31 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Jiemba,

This thread is wonderful and the information contained is some of the best I have seen from anyone on this subject in quite some time.  I have been finding and experimenting with Amanita Muscaria quite a bit in the last four years and my journey has led me through many different techniques as well as tons of research.  I appreciate you sharing what you have shared in regards to the chemistry & neuro-effects of the IA and Muscimol.  I too feel that these mushrooms have profound potential as a beneficial herb, yet the issues of toxicity from Ibotenic acid are very real.  I would like to share this with everyone, as it offers some interesting insights on converting Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20140004084

It may be that fermentation with bacteria or combination with HCL could be the most effective ways to decarb IA into Muscimol.  I think one of the most practical ways to do this would be to culture yogurt or kefir from Amanita Muscaria infused milk. 

Love this subject matter and am open to learning & sharing more of what I have found.  I also think sun-drying the mushrooms as much as possible is a productive process for the conversion.  Looking forward to discussing all of this more!

Cheers!


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: DT_Rang]
    #23798323 - 11/03/16 06:47 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Great info here. Have been about hunting but I have not come across any AM. If I do this season I will be definately trying this and share info.
Thanks


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: tetrahedral]
    #23801670 - 11/04/16 09:49 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

I saw this claim in the Donald E Teerer ebook:
Quote:

When Ibotenic Acid is dried the chemical loses a carbon dioxide molecule and a water molecule to produce Muscimol. This chemical change can be reversed with Carbonated water so do not consume dried Amanita Muscaria or the products of the Grail with Carbonated water (Beer, Soda, or bubbly wine like Champagne).




I have a very hard time swallowing this. The decarboylation cannot be reversed like that, you can't prepare an amino-acid from an aliphatic amine and CO2.

I wonder if any of these ambrosia preparations has been analysed for ibotenic acid or muscimol content?


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Edited by hjalmar (11/04/16 09:50 PM)


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OfflineLennybernadino
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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: hjalmar]
    #23833202 - 11/14/16 08:13 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

So I made a makeshift still air box, gathered some more A.muscarias and decided to play around with trying to get te fleece to grow.
1rst experiment I started about 6 days ago involved in the SAB split open fresh stems and peeled away strands of mycelium and drop them onto pasteurized 100%apple juice. The lids of the jars where of 3 types to experiment with cleanliness and FAE.one with a hole in it covered with microporous tape, another with a white cotton old baby shirt with the lid screwed over it.and the third with a spongy towel thing secured with a rubber band.3 days later I see signs of growth in the towelly one and 5 out of eight jars failed to float the stem strand and it sank to the bottom
  As of today the towelly one has heavy bacterial growth covering the top layer but also the most mycelium, the other two are starting to show signs of mycelium, I used an opaquepple juice :frown: so I have no idea what is happening with the ones that sank.

  todays experiment I pasteurized clear apple juice and some thicker apple black current juice, used a combination of micropourous tape and spongy towel. I placed dried stipes in 4 jars, added a bit of powdered dried whole mushroom in 3 and a wedge of a cap in one. My goal is to get a culture of fleece going, I guess I complicate things I will just add 1/10 dried mushroom to water in a jar and see that I have been wasting my time with nutrients just to get the culture active.


Edited by Lennybernadino (11/14/16 08:17 PM)


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Re: amanita muscaria [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23845420 - 11/18/16 04:34 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Nice one Lenny. I will be following your progress here. Hope you succeed.
I have had little opportunity this year to go out hunting and sadly no a.muscaria this year for me.but it's good to see people are trying this and experimenting. I will be definately trying something out next season when I will find so fly agarics.
Good luck and keep us posted. Much appreciated


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Jiemba]
    #23845868 - 11/18/16 06:47 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23853653 - 11/21/16 11:17 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

For me, fly agaric is something I don't actively hunt, but stumble upon while running or hiking. So far, I've found 8 very nice ones. Dried them like one would dry other shrooms: first fan dry, then completely dehydrate with desiccant. Before any consumption takes place, I will put them in the oven, already crackerdry or not. Just to be sure.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Satyr604]
    #23856131 - 11/22/16 03:28 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Alright I will make an update. All the jars in which I put stipes in apple juice contaminated but also showed mycelial growth, the contaminant was either trich or penecilum , I sterilized the shit out of it. There are three jars with mycelial growth, two are from the original fresh piece of stem tissue and show really slow growth, I think the microporous tape I use to filter is not allowing enough FAE. the one that has shown a lot of mycelial growth also had some bacteria in it. not sure if i can use it maybe wait and thn do a transfer see if the mycelium eats or kills the bacteria.... Butit was topeped by a kitchen sponge and a rubber band so i thinkI am going to replace the lid twith the two uncontaminated cultures and see f growth can be accelerated by more FAE.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #23899757 - 12/06/16 02:15 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Nice recipe! I have a question about the base materials. It looks like you're mixing wine and simple syrup, then using what water is present to extract the muscimol. Muscimol isn't very soluble in ethanol.

What about adding brewer's yeast and mushrooms to unsweetened grape juice, then letting the yeast ferment the grape's fructose as well as the mushroom's polysaccharides? According to this lab site, yeast can convert these polysaccharides into glucose.

Fermenting the starches that comprise the mushroom's cell walls may help extract the muscimol more efficiently, especially when the starting water isn't diluted with ethanol. The yeast culture will eventually die of alcohol poisoning, but not before processing the better part of the mushroom's structural components.

Culturing yeast in mushroom water may result in more vigorous strains.

:sunny:


Edited by AndyHinton (12/06/16 08:40 PM)


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: AndyHinton]
    #24020401 - 01/18/17 05:29 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

I've been brewing fly agaric and apple cider. Apples seem to be used as a "mask" for fly agaric a lot in myth and legend. They're around at the same time, and I like to wonder about how things used to be done, back in less benighted times.

1. I cut the apples : mushrooms into 1 cm pieces 2:1, cover with water and add a little cider yeast.
2. I brew them for 2 weeks, stirring daily.
3. I then filter the liquid out and ferment it into vinegar for longevity.
4. I also make fly pies etc out of the pulp.

I tried juicing the apples but that batch got contaminated.

A spoonful of the vinegar really makes you feel alive. Muscimol is great for bringing out umami flavours, very similar to MSG but more healthy, so the vinegar works well in salad dressings etc too.

Thanks OP for such an interesting thread. I'll be sure to try it.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: crowseed]
    #24020908 - 01/18/17 08:27 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

That's some really good info and I love apples, autumn is also coming for us down here soon. So you use your final product just for cooking and not getting high or is this to achieve both?


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: NobodyYouKnow]
    #24022038 - 01/19/17 07:54 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: NobodyYouKnow]
    #24022753 - 01/19/17 01:51 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

I mostly use the fly agaric medicinally, just small amounts to improve cognition and energy. A spoonful of vinegar is perfect for that, but it would be a bit grim to have to drink a glassful of vinegar to get high! I'd stick with plain old dried fly for that.

The Psychoactive Substances Act here in Britain has made selling fly agaric illegal, but there's an exemption for food. I'm not actually selling the vinegar, but may do at some point.

I'd say that the fly agaric and apple cider vinegar does have an extra something that fly agaric tincture doesn't. I'm also interested in exploring applying the vinegar externally for various ills (pain, skin problems - fly agaric is even a folk treatment for radiation burns in Russia). The muscimol is amazing at killing pain and taking muscles out of spasm (it mimics GABA).

Thanks for the encouragement. It's great to find like minded people here :smile:


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: crowseed]
    #24023532 - 01/19/17 07:32 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Out of curiosity, why are you fermenting it aerobically? Muscimol apple wine sounds more appealing than muscimol ACV to me.

Have you ever tried sterilizing the wash before pitching the yeast? I'd like to ferment reishi tea with portobello mycelium (certain mushroom species can turn sugar into alcohol).

The article that inspired me used grape juice processed for 30 min at 15 psi. But caramelized sugars are a concern.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: AndyHinton]
    #24024682 - 01/20/17 04:49 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Hi. The reason I'm fermenting aerobically is that I was looking for something to replace fly agaric tincture, which I take throughout the day, so I didn't have to buy vodka. And originally just as an experiment.

I may well brew some as fly and apple cider next year though - sounds like a drink of choice for a pixie! I did drink some as cider when moving it from the fruit tub into demijohns. It doesn't taste so great at that point and does benefit from a few months getting vinegarised. And it has more of a kick once it's vinegar. I don't know if it's the fly affecting the friendly bacteria and yeast in the apple cider vinegar, giving them a little mushroom boost, which they in turn give to you.

Edit: No I haven't  tried sterilising the mash. Maybe I'll give that a go next season cheers.

Edit: Rather than sterilising I add "probiotics" (a few spoonfuls of mature apple cider vinegar with the friendly bacteria and yeast in) and shake it up with the fly agaric square centimetre pieces, before adding the apple pieces and water. I haven't had any of these contaminate on me yet (touch wood).


Edited by crowseed (01/21/17 05:07 AM)


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: crowseed]
    #24849276 - 12/16/17 08:13 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Hi, I'm new to this and this is my first comment. I don't know how to put up a comment without having to 'reply' or 'quote'but I just wanted abit of advice on muscaria. I soaked an oz in water and everclear for 2 days and then simmered the litre down to a a thick syrup, I didn't like the water separating so I evaporated it further to a goo.
After reading some more recent information I have found out that an acid extraction would have been more appropriate so I don't know if the heat alone would have converted that baddies or have I heated it too much? I don't wanna try it if it's not gonna do anything coz it tastes rank!


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Whiteshade]
    #24853311 - 12/18/17 11:13 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

I wanna read the opening post, but now is not the time..

Parking it in my post list...


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OfflineDirty hippie 5000
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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Whiteshade]
    #25465679 - 09/16/18 10:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I've actually been doing something similar, I have been messing with amanita extractions by use of solvent, and ive pulled about 10 grams amanitmuscaria with isopropanol and have evapped to a much smaller much more concentrated amount. And I havent had time to work on it, ergo it's been in the freezer as to not forment or decay, and these yellowish white puffy needles coat the bottom of the jar. It's the wierdest thing and as far I'm aware there aren't very many muscimol extractions let alone amanita muscaria teks out there. Besides Jonathon Ott and if we knew that we'd all be as rich as him.
Forgot to mention that it has been filtered to perfection. So I'm puzzled.


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Edited by Dirty hippie 5000 (09/16/18 10:49 PM)


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: Lennybernadino]
    #25577961 - 10/30/18 07:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

So... about Teeter, Ambrosia and fleece...

First off, I need to get this off my chest, Teeter sounds like a complete raving nutcase. However, insane people sometimes stumble onto something interesting.

I have no idea what the explanation could be behind the "resurrection". I've seen a comment somewhere on the forums that mycologists ran Teeter's experiment, and the "fleece" was proven to be a mucor fungus. Of course the source wasn't cited... So it's about as reliable a claim as that of Teeter (or less, at least Teeter had videos).

Vegetative mycelium growing on a sugar solution is nothing to be surprised at. What does surprise me is that we're usually adept enough with sterile technique to do agar work and isolate strains, and yet all attempts I read about try to replicate Teeter's bronze age "tek" exactly, resulting in either failure, or a success without much learned.

I propose an experiment, which I want to do when I stumble upon a Muscaria in the wild:

Attempt to clone fresh stem tissue onto PDA.
Upon success, attempt to make a dextrose based liquid culture from the isolated mycelium on agar.

Dry the rest of the mushrooms, and later attempt Teeter's bronze age revival stuff.
Upon success, take a sample from the "fleece" to culture on PDA.

Then, compare the two. If we could just clone living Muscaria, and culture vegetative mycelium like that, that should eliminate the reliability problems with Teeter's "tek". Plus we could be relatively sure that it's actually Muscaria mycelium...


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InvisibleLizardWizard
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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: PsyduckMonkey]
    #25578232 - 10/30/18 11:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Teeter is a nutjob and you're better off spending your time and energy just looking for amanita muscaria's and sauteing small pieces in butter for a nice buzz.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: LizardWizard]
    #25580674 - 10/31/18 06:34 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'm a grower and explorer at heart, so seeing Muscaria mycelium growing on my agar plates (or verifying that it doesn't work) would be its own reward. But yea, I agree with you on the practicalities. :wink:

I'll write a log when I get around to trying it.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: PsyduckMonkey]
    #25583352 - 11/01/18 06:46 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PsyduckMonkey said:
Well I'm a grower and explorer at heart, so seeing Muscaria mycelium growing on my agar plates (or verifying that it doesn't work) would be its own reward. But yea, I agree with you on the practicalities. :wink:

I'll write a log when I get around to trying it.




I've been growing fly agaric mycelium the last year. On agar, sterilised grains, fermented grains, cardboard. Once it's clean it grows well. Haven't been doing much but keeping it alive and transferring it.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: crowseed]
    #25586365 - 11/02/18 11:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Cool! Have you ever tried making an LC and bioassaying it? :wink:


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: PsyduckMonkey]
    #25586601 - 11/02/18 01:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PsyduckMonkey said:
Cool! Have you ever tried making an LC and bioassaying it? :wink:




I haven't but now you've put the idea in my head I will! Have been looking for a reason to try Josex's poke.

I do have some interest in the ancient ways that fly agaric may have been used. Have been wondering if maybe that's what the (early Bronze Age) Beaker people had in their beakers. Perhaps fermenting fly agaric with kefir in milk (they were a pastoral people). I've tried some initial experimental archaeology, with interesting results, but need to do more.


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) [Re: crowseed]
    #25610949 - 11/13/18 02:28 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Anyone know about doing this with Amanita Persicina? Seem closely related to Muscaria.


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grams [Re: Jiemba]
    #25831715 - 02/23/19 10:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Hey,I couldn't see any dose mentionned from shroomerites, I planning on trying a 20g first dose from a new batch, i'll report soon.
if any of you have any suggestion (too high or too low) please tell me but i am looking for ze entheogenic effect not the light stimulation.

From what I read yet the therapeutic interval is not that narrow and i'm 100kg. I know yall aint physicians btw

Might do a 5g test before hand just to know how it might affect me

I'll keep u updated


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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) (moved) [Re: Jiemba] * 1
    #25832139 - 02/23/19 01:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Wrong location


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OfflineSavantfou
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Re: Amanita Muscaria Grape TEK (Muscimol Mulled Wine) (moved) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25841862 - 02/27/19 06:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)



So I went ahead and soaked 30gs of amanita muscaria in a 7% alcohol apple cider for 2 days in the fridge. I got 250 mL left after filtering the solids and I just sampled a 40 mL (= 5 g) of it to test the effects a couple minutes ago. I fasted for 24 hours beforehand. let's see how this goes!

I am not convinced by the mushroom appearence, it had some black spots but it all went into the mixture, no waste :crazy2:

REPORT
I feel very stimulated and in a strange headspace, quite nice to listen to some music and work at the computer. Nothing spiritual at this dosage but promising for the next run. Intense dreams the night after though.

REPORT 2
I decided to take 160 mL in 3 doses 2 hours appart. Was intense and cannabis helped a lot to diminish any nausea. I could fall asleep anytime and my homies had to wake me the fuck up hahaha, I felt kinda sleepy drunk and I would be very passive with brief moments of energy, no hallucinations wathsoever only slight dissociation nothing alike dextrometorphane per se. :tongue2:


Edited by Savantfou (03/05/19 02:03 PM)


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