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OfflineOtto
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Using hot oil to steralize jars
    #2314751 - 02/08/04 02:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Let me preface this by saying that a for a serious fungus cultivator a pressure cooker is the way to go. It's well worth the investment. This thought just crossed my mind so I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was thinking though that to achieve stearilization temperatures one could simply use oil with a smoke point low enough to be heated to the same temp inside pressure cookers at 15psi (The number slipped my mind). Newbs would be able to use grain simply by buying a gallon of canola or peanut oil.

Here's a list of oils and their smoke points:
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/CollectedInfo/OilSmokePoints.htm

Any reason why this wouldn't work?

Otto

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Otto]
    #2314842 - 02/08/04 03:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>Any reason why this wouldn't work?
Yes.

Liquid water can?t get hotter than 100?C at atmospheric pressure, regardless of temperature you apply.
As long there is liquid water in your substrate(and hopefully there is) the temperature can only reach the boiling temperature.
At a pressure of 15 PSI (pound per square inch) water boils at a higher temperature (250?F, 121?C) than at ambient pressure.(212?F, 100?C). This high temperature kills the contaminants if applied for a sufficient long time span.

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OfflineOtto
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2314986 - 02/08/04 04:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the reply Anno

A couple of comments:
1. To grasp what you were saying I imagined myself a microbe in a swimming pool. Lining the swimming pool are heaters that are set to 500C, but the pool water never gets above 100C (at 1atm), it just boils and I am fine (I die at 121C) until the water runs out (which doesn't happen in a sealed jar).

2. The enviroment of a microbe inside a jar is more complex then this analogy. It is likely surrounded by proteins and carbohydrates that can get hotter then 100C. But I guess somehow the microbes surround themselves with water to avoid the heat from the carbohydrates, proteins and any other molecules above 100C.

Is there a better explanation?

Otto

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2315294 - 02/08/04 06:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

/me wonders how many PSI an average glass coke/beer bottle can handle.

If you sealed a glass bottle full of substrate and heated it to 250'F that would theoretically work, but also it might blow up your face.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315511 - 02/08/04 07:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

depends if the pressure can equalize inside and outside of the container. Also, if the glass is bubble free it should be able to withstand quite a bit of pressure.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2315570 - 02/08/04 08:00 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not talking about equalizes pressure, I'm talking about atmospheric pressure outside the bottle, and atmospheric pressure + 15 lbs inside the bottle.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315904 - 02/08/04 09:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

the lid would pop off first :smile:

LoL, I really don't know what you are trying to get at, planning on putting some closed containers in the oven or microwave? You could probably test it by finding how much pressure an unopened, shaken, carbonated drink has and then adjust the temperature to increase it. Or perhaps one involving dry ice.

I'm not sure if this is true or not...
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/SeemaMeraj.shtml

They are talking about pressures of between 30 and 60 psi in a can of Soda in normal  conditions. I imagine a glass bottle should be able to hold the same.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2315945 - 02/08/04 09:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not planning on trying it, but I think it would work.

Put grains in a beer bottle and then heat it to 250'F, i if the lid stayed on and the bottle didn't explode it would probably successfully sterilize.

Of course, you would have to break the bottle to get the spawn/substrate out.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315996 - 02/08/04 09:42 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Of course, if you tried this in a bath of hot oil, and it exploded, the result would probably be a severely scalded or dead you, and a burnt down house.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2316037 - 02/08/04 09:50 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Not to mention it would be a real pain in the arse to get in there in the first place, very messy. didn't we have a similar convo before.. yes, I believe we did.

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InvisibleJared
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2316185 - 02/08/04 10:27 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I've always wondered, if you steamed your jars with the lids seal down, and very tightly closed.. wouldnt that create pressure inside the jars? They're made to handle being sealed for canning, so why not for substrate prep? :P

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316204 - 02/08/04 10:35 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

because of what anno already said.

"Liquid water can?t get hotter than 100?C at atmospheric pressure, regardless of temperature you apply."

This is why in order to can, you need a PC.

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2316397 - 02/08/04 11:43 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

He is steaming the jars while the jars are sealed. Steam is not liquid and a sealed jar, when heated, will have a higher internal pressure.

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316768 - 02/09/04 03:30 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>I've always wondered, if you steamed your jars with the lids seal down, and
>very tightly closed.. wouldn't that create pressure inside the jars?

Steam them as steaming at the atmospheric pressure?
Hardly. The pressure that would get created is from the air that you have trapped in the jar expanding, and the fluid in the jar expanding(for the temperature rise from the room temperature to 100?C.)
This is hardly a noteworthy pressure rise.

>They're made
>to handle being sealed for canning, so why not for substrate prep? :P

OK, let's assume you are canning sealed jars in a pressure cooker.
Again you will have the same pressure rise as above due to expanding air and liquid and ALSO the pressure rise through water evaporating.
BUT: you are doing this in a canner, so you have the same pressure also on the outside of the jar , leaving the jar itself in an equilibrium, without any resulting net pressure on the jar.

NOW if you try to place the same jar in a hot environment WITHOUT a rise of pressure, the pressure in the jar will rise, indeed, it will act as a pressure cooker, until(possibly) BOOOOM, glas shrapnels and hot oil everywhere.

I am not enough of an experimenter to want to test this.

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316990 - 02/09/04 07:33 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

there is a reason PCs are made of cast aluminum and have heavy duty seals and are not made of glass.

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Joshua]
    #2319009 - 02/09/04 06:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Besides that you really can't get the temp inside the jar to be hotter than the outside. Most of the heat has to go through H2O, which will only rise to 100 C at atm press before turning into steam and rising away from the heat sorce. There will be a small quantity of heat that will go directly from the heat source -> pot -> jar. But glass isn't the best heat conductor.

You could do this sealed jar with oil, yes, but as anno said you may end up with a mess, or even injury. It is my personal belief that the glass itself could resist 15psi, the way jars are shaped they are able to with stand a great amount of uniform pressure, it is pressure points, such as dropping or stress fractures that glass has trouble with. I do have my doubts about the lid and the repeated pressure change.

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2319311 - 02/09/04 07:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I used to steam my PF jars. I used to have pretty good success with the proceedure as well.

I think this method would be considered high-level disinfection.

Hot oil scares me, I think I'd steer clear of any methods employing its use...especially under pressure.

Joshua


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Joshua]
    #2319394 - 02/09/04 07:53 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Steaming is in now way "high-level" disinfection. PC is not even really high level. Autoclave.. that's more like it. But PF jars don't need "high-level."

Why does it scare you?

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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2320425 - 02/10/04 01:59 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

What's the difference between autoclaving and PC'ing, except the fact that the autoclav has a pressure gauge ?

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ragadinks]
    #2320446 - 02/10/04 02:12 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Most autoclaves work at a higher pressure, thus they reach a higer temperature.

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2320564 - 02/10/04 04:15 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

B. High-Level Disinfection

Destroys: All forms of microbial life except high numbers of bacterial spores.

Methods: Hot water pasteurization (80-100C, 30 minutes)





From:

http://www.nursece.com/onlinecourses/9008P1.html

Quote:

Pasteurization should be used to achieve thermal high-level disinfection.

1. Items to be pasteurized should be placed in wire mesh baskets that rotate in a water and detergent bath for a specified time period according to manufacturers? written instructions. The detergent solution is drained and items are spray rinsed. Baskets are then submerged in a water bath and rotated to remove air to facilitate water contact on all surfaced. The water bath is heated to 160 o to 180oF (60o to 77oC) and held for at least 30 minutes to achieve high-level disinfection.





From:

http://www.aorn.org/Proposed/disinfection.htm

Hot oil under pressure scares me because of its ability to rapidly disperse thermal energy if the vessel containing the oil were to rupture. More specifically, under the context spoken in this thread, a home set-up of this sort could be especially dangerous due to the manner of the set-up. Most home cultivators do not have the knowledge to properly manufacture a safe set-up of this nature.

I also recall a story from when I was a child of another child trying to cook french fries in hot oil. The fryer fell off of the counter top and scarred the child for life from the third degree burns caused from the oil.

Accidents can happen very easily. I choose to minimize the possibility of such accidents.

Joshua


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Joshua]
    #2322180 - 02/10/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)



I had no idea that there was an actual specific classification. I just personally thought it wasn't high level, I guess my high level is sterilization though.

Thanks for the info, now to learn some good cleaning practices.

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2327286 - 02/12/04 02:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

glass coke bottle can take nearlly 4 bar (60 psi ) so you could fill the botle and cap it and it should be possible to heat it in an oven to 120 C. but the rubber seal in te cap may not like it. i dont reckon a jar could safley take 15 psi the walls are thin and the larger volume would increase the relative stess ( relative to coke bottle).


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Offline284_27
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: tank]
    #2328041 - 02/12/04 06:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Liquid water can?t get hotter than 100?C at atmospheric pressure, regardless of temperature you apply.
As long there is liquid water in your substrate(and hopefully there is) the temperature can only reach the boiling temperature.
At a pressure of 15 PSI (pound per square inch) water boils at a higher temperature (250?F, 121?C) than at ambient pressure.(212?F, 100?C). This high temperature kills the contaminants if applied for a sufficient long time span.




Perhaps that statement is the key . Perhaps we need an addition to make the bp higher the same as antifreeze makes the water in your car boil at a higher tempature .


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: 284_27]
    #2328776 - 02/12/04 10:51 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

True. propylene glycol might just work.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html


--------------------
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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2329553 - 02/13/04 04:16 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>Perhaps we need an addition to make the bp higher the same as antifreeze
>makes the water in your car boil at a higher tempature .
>True. propylene glycol might just work.

How about getting a pressure cooker people??

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2330488 - 02/13/04 11:22 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

well yes, that would be a convinient answer but its just human nature to do dumb shit.

What ever you use, make sure it is ment for cooking, wouldn't want anyone dieing of gas poisoning.

Frying oil really could work but I see some problems, besides the obvious. FOr instance, you will almost have to submerge the jars entirely.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2330568 - 02/13/04 11:37 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Pfffffft, that's already been done.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offline284_27
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2332441 - 02/13/04 09:08 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

My first tool was a pressure cooker , however I always seek new ways to do things . No matter which tek you follow it is almost always a differnt way to do a task . Mycology has always and will always be the hobby of innovation , at least in my mind .


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: 284_27]
    #2333318 - 02/14/04 01:06 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>Mycology has always and will always be the hobby of innovation , at least in my mind .

Innovation is great, but not when you a producing oil bombs and start poisoning yourself with glycol.....

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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2334911 - 02/14/04 04:06 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

If someone were going to do this, they should use only food grade propylene glycol.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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